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Re: attack and parry, for your amusement
***"Viscous" like "gummy and stickily pro-tv"?***
Maybe he or she meant vicious, but that's still a really strange choice of words. If this person thought you "sounded angry" then vicious might have been the word she really wanted, but I'm guessing she was after another word and couldn't find it. Maybe vehemently? Still weird. "Unusually pro-tv" might have been a better choice but isn't much to get worked up over, is it? <g> I can sympathize some as a person who has no natural or cultivated talent for spelling. "Viscously pro-tv" is much more amusing. "I love TV so much I'm positively STICKY with excitement!" <g> Deb Lewis |
Re: Unschooling & mindfulness
-=-I'll shut up now and go to bed.-=-
When you wake up, I hope you'll keep saying what you're saying. -=I can see how their message can go along with unschooling. But for me, there is nothing more simple (not always easy) than just paying attention to my daughter.-=- I agree with you. People are putting their children on hold, running around looking for what they think will make them better parents and happier people, when we've seen repeatedly and consistently that ceasing to run around looking at anything other than one's own children can make them better parents and happier people, right then and right there. Sandra |
Re: attack and parry, for your amusement
Do you watch I have 24 hours a day satellite TV with over 100 channels plus Foxtel IQ which allows me to record programs to watch at my convenience. I've channel surfed all hours of the day, and night. Like everybody else in my family, I'm free to watch whatever I choose whenever I choose. In the past week, I've watched with my son one episode of Mythbusters and an episode of NCIS; with my wife, one episode of The Restaurant (Raymond Blanc) and a movie called Martian Child; on my own, one episode of New Tricks (UK cop show) and an episode of Eggheads (UK quiz show). Oh and I watched half an episode of Torchwood to please my wife, who's a fan, and thought it was so daft I probably will never watch Torchwood again. That's it. In a whole week. Probably an average of less than an hour of TV a day. It's true I do watch TV for hours on end during the MLB playoffs and World Series and no doubt will be glued to the screen for a lot of the upcoming soccer World Cup - but, really, watching whatever's on TV because that's what happens to be on at the time, that's sad. Assumimg "pro-TVers" do the same is kind of sad too. Bob |
Re: Unschooling & mindfulness
sheeboo2
---Without discussing unschooling anymore, you mean?-----
No, without having to add all kinds of other "isms" or "nessess" to the equation. I realize my last post wasn't very generous, and I apologize. I just had a long harrowing conversation with a friend who wants to practice all kinds of lovely philosophies but can't, for even the shortest amount of time, look at her children and give them what they ask for--which is her attention! The Kabbot-Zinns have a lot of good to say. And I can see how their message can go along with unschooling. But for me, there is nothing more simple (not always easy) than just paying attention to my daughter. All of these other practices place attention on the parent and on the parent's trip--and I realize that we have our own "inner work" to do too--but I just wish that people could get that "being mindful" or "being in the moment," in terms of relating to our children, requires little more than focusing on them rather than on ourselves. I'll shut up now and go to bed. |
Re: Unschooling & mindfulness
sheeboo2
I wonder if the OP isn't talking about the book "Everyday Blessings: The Inner Work of Mindful Parenting" by the Kabat-Zinns:
If so, it might have been helpful to mention that..... I read a few chapters of the book a few years ago and put it down for the same reason I never considered NVC a useful tool in relating to my daughter. Too much script! Too many things to think about that actually took me *away* from focusing on her in the moment. Geesh. All this crap. I'm sorry, I'm in a foul mood. Why can't we just trust ourselves to trust our kids? B |
Re: Who can't unschool?
sheeboo2
--------- It is hard to BELIEVE in the hope schooling offers when you're surrounded by people living "hopeless" existences.---------
Really that is exactly the opposite of what I meant--"It is hard to believe in the hope UNSCHOOLING offers," would be more inline with my intention. I understand the point of your examples of schooled people having messed up lives, and I know many who fit the bill too. But I really know far, far more who are stuck in jobs they hate, making barely enough to survive, who honestly believe with all their hearts, that a decent education would have changed their destiny. -----"Until we can let go of the false assumption that school = success, that school = the golden ticket, that school = educated, we're doomed to the endless hamster wheel we as a society are on. I find it astounding that it's such a hard cycle to break. "-------- For a time I taught at one of the oldest African American universities in the nation. For many of these kids, it wasn't a choice between unschooling and school. It was a choice between the streets and school. You can't ignore that. To Sandra's list of who can't unschool, I'd add: People who don't believe they have anything good to give their youth People who don't believe they have the power to question authority and not be punished I'm not saying that I don't agree with your belief that school=a myth. It does. But like religion for some (sorry to anyone I'm pissing off right now), it is a myth that is far to scary to flush. B |
Re: "open-ended" was Lego Educator sets
lalow66
when we first got legos for the kids, my husband and I bought the blocks that we remembered growing up. we had both played with legos alot growing up, I had built houses for the little fisher price people I played with constantly and my husband had built rocket and planes that he found in pictures in their set of encyclopias. so we both had our little preconceived idea of how to best play with them and we were resistent to the sets. the boys had different ideas though and they really enjoy playing with them in all different ways. they love the sets but put them together once,play with them awhile then all the pieces join the collective. I see pieces i recognize in all kinds of new creations. they use the movable pieces to put doors, guns etc on new creations that wouldnt have the option of if they had never had the sets. i have also been looking at the motors, but my kids do seem to do better with ones that have projects and then they go from there on their own. i have trouble finding which ones include motors.
one thing my kids have really enjoyed lately is finding the little videos on youtube about how to build mario, bowser, link etc... We have all these little guys all over the house right now. They then change them to fit their taste. |
Re: attack and parry, for your amusement
-=-viscously pro-tv before.>>>
-=-The words "blas¨¦" and "visciously"-=- I thought it said "viciously" at first, too, but it's "viscous." "Viscous" like "flowingly pro-tv"? "Viscous" like "gummy and stickily pro-tv"? Depends on the viscosity being attributed to me. I'm neither visciously nor viscously anything. Sandra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
Re: attack and parry, for your amusement
<<<I know plenty of people who have a blas¨¦ attitude about television,
but I've never seen anyone so viscously pro-tv before.>>> The words "blas¨¦" and "visciously" are interpretations of the behavior. And the way the whole thing is phrased is an admission that anything pro-tv is out of the speaker's realm of experience. Just lose those two words and you'll see that: "I know plenty of people who have a(n) attitude about television, but I've never seen anyone so pro-tv before." Well, ok. There's a first time for everything! Here's potentially contentious thought: "I know people who don't mind guns, but I've never met anyone (in the WHOLE wide world of my past experience) who was so pro-gun before!!" It's not the tv. It's not the guns. Without people thinking up inappropriate uses for tv and guns, there would be no going to people's houses and doing private acts publicly. Some people just like to hit targets and that's why they have guns. They don't kill anything with them. It's not guns. It's not tv's. It's not sex (the way that children get into this world, remember, so it's a good thing!) None of those things are harmful for children to know about. It's the thinking about them that can be harmful. I suppose it's possible for all the tv's, guns, sex to vanish, and we could decry the presence of some other thing that seems like it shouldn't be in the same world as children. ~Katherine |
Re: "open-ended" was Lego Educator sets
-=-I suppose it's _possible_ that there are some kids whose creativity
are so weak that giving them a pre-designed Lego set kills it. -=- I can't imagine that. If they're lacking in creativity, then a pre- designed kit will at least enable them to play with Lego! I have sewn following a pattern exactly, and changing patterns, and without patterns. There's a usefulness in all those things, but if I wasn't able to do all of them, it wouldn't be "creativity" or lack of creativity, I don't think. It might be fear, or lack of interest. Not crimes. Kids who are creative can hardly be stopped! Sandra |
Re: "open-ended" was Lego Educator sets
So Eric was using the directions for building Lego sets as
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instructions to get him started and then he reworked from there. That makes so much sense. I've built things and taken a piece off to put elsewhere to see what would happen, and Karl does that too, but I haven't taken the whole thing apart and remade the whole thing. That shows how pre-fabs can be "open-ended!" I've definitely seen people do the same thing with Barbies and other dolls-- take them apart and remake them in ways they weren't "pre-fabbed" for. It's what I would think of as creative for sure. Found art making is the same way. People mix and match machine parts and rebuilt them in ways that work but that they weren't originally designed for. Fun stuff. ~Katherine On 3/21/10, Su Penn <su@...> wrote:
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Re: Who can't unschool?
makes it more difficult to see what is false and what is true.Calling something that is not universally false "a false assumption" Indignation can be a lot of fun, but for the purposes of discussing how learning works, calm clarity is more valuable.<<< I loved school once I got to the university level (as compared to the 12 years of grammar, middle and high school) because there was so much more choice involved and once I figured that out I began to excel and eventually got better at planning what I was doing too. I learned a lot, and most were things I wanted to know. Almost the *only* con was the expense, both for tuition, books, supplies as well as making a living (the shorter term expense by far but it took a lot of the time and concentration of those years and it was an education to itself). And the degree wasn't the goal for me that it was for others, who rarely had anything to say about it (so that was good too). For a year and a half midway through, I worked as a executive aide in the department and I was a student worker there before then. I met so many students in the course of that in addition to being a fellow student. Some loved what they were doing and some who didn't. I agree that so many people think they'll improve their lives with a degree, and then it doesn't pan out that a degree is even necessary for what they end up doing. It isn't the degree that helps anyway even if a person lands jobs but the knowledge and experience that for most people the degree is representative of. I'd definitely say that learning knowledge and gathering experience ---as well as enjoying ourselves and having fun--- is the reward of living and to the benefit of work abilities, when we're able to pull it off, and sometimes educational goals work out well with that. The great thing about unschooling is that it's possible to realize that getting knowledge and experience is not limited to school though it may at some points include instruction. (Getting degrees is limited to schools or yet even people who don't may be awarded honoraries, etc. I can't think of an example but I've heard of people who have honorary degrees which means the person didn't complete a degree program to get awarded one. I think the honoraries are not meant for getting jobs but being acknowledged by peers and others.) I may have meandered quite a bit. Are there other things that unschoolers can say about things to do with school that are beneficial to unschooling? I think I've learned a lot from school, knowledge that I've applied to unschooling without resorting to schooling Karl. Oh~~ one thing would have to be the contribution of John Holt to education ideas and methods, and why unschooling is a better idea than schooling in the first place. ~Katherine On 3/21/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote: -=- Even the black families whose grandmothers didn't go to school |
Re: Slightly OT: Lego Educator sets
Rebecca McClure
I am surprised to hear they are open ended. I thought they came with some guidance and instruction. <Mea Culpa! I'm sorry - yes, they do have projects that can be made. I was thinking about the simple and powered machines set we have, which is an older version. However, we also have the eLab set for renewable energy and it does have projects. I would be interested in buying a ready made set, but at the moment I don't think Lego is selling any that include Power Functions, or even help on how you could include them.<Then you may be most happy with the first set you mentioned. Did you find this page? :) Rebecca |
Re: "open-ended" was Lego Educator sets
Su Penn
On Mar 21, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Rebecca McClure wrote:
My son (9 years) also really enjoys the motorized pre-fab projects. He has learned so much about Lego construction principles from doing sets like this, it's amazing! I used to be a bit of a snob about this stuff, thinking that "open-ended" was best, but I've changed my mind based on watching my son apply what he's learned via the project-based sets to his own projects.I got some Lego Educator sets on gears, pulleys, and so on. We like them a lot, but when we messed around with the gears projects Eric had already figured it all out from doing Lego Star Wars sets that used gears. I was just mentally ranting about the "open-ended" thing the other day, having been with some moms who were sort of parroting the idea; it's a really easy thing to say that I'm not sure every writer or person talking about it has really thought through. I used to kind of vaguely agree with it, that all these "build this very model!" Lego sets were somehow bad compared to the enormous boxes of rectangles that were all you could get when I was a kid. But watching Eric really changed my mind. For one thing, he didn't used to keep most sets made the way they were. He would build them according to the instructions, then almost immediately start taking them apart and re-configuring them. He never took the instruction booklet as gospel. (Now, he has some sets he keeps built--his "collection"--and some he is willing to play with. Sometimes we have ended up with two of the same set if he has both wanted to keep the model AND use some of its specific cool pieces in another project.) He has actually in the past built a couple of very small models and then made instruction booklets for them. Eric takes ownership of everything he does-- he doesn't see Lego instructions as something made by these experts off somewhere that he can never be one of, or whose rules he has to follow. He can invent a set, make a booklet of instructions, package it all in a box, and give it to his brother as a gift. Likewise, he really likes computer and video games that include "build your own level" features, and he will spend a lot of time with those. And I always tend to brag on this board game he made year before last that was actually playable! Not a great game (too easy to win) but it had coherent rules and you could actually play it. I suppose it's _possible_ that there are some kids whose creativity are so weak that giving them a pre-designed Lego set kills it. On the other hand, there may be lots of kids who are like me--I do not have the kind of mind Eric does, that can imagine something in three dimensions and then create it. But working with him and Carl, I have really enjoyed building complex models from Lego kits. For me, doing kits has made Legos fun and satisfying in a way they never were before (I could never do more with those rectangular bricks than make a wall, as a kid). Maybe some kids who like the models but don't do their own "creative" Lego building are like me--it's not that they're not creative, but that doing that kind of building was _never_ going to be the direction their creativity took them. But maybe people look at them and say, "Oh, look how doing the pre-designed kits has destroyed that kid's creativity," and they let that reinforce their belief. Su, mom to Eric 8; Carl, almost 6; Yehva, 2.5 tapeflags.blogspot.com |
Re: Slightly OT: Lego Educator sets
lalow66
--- In AlwaysLearning@..., John and Amanda Slater <fourslaterz@...> wrote:
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Re: Who can't unschool?
-=- Even the black families whose grandmothers didn't go to school
(I'm paraphrasing because I can't find the entry again ;>) can unschool, but they choose not to because of the "promise" that an education = a better life. -=-That is the biggest myth of all, IMO. -=- I don't think this is fair. There are millions of example of education having created a better life. There are MANY cases in which it has clearly made it possible for people to get off sharecropping farms, and out of gypsum mills and out of the family's carpet-laying business, just speaking for relatives of mine I can specifically think of. -=-Personally I don't believe that there is anyone who "can't" unschool. -=- People who are clinically depressed, or in unsafe situations can't. People who don't want to can't. People whose children are already far gone from any positive relationship with the parents probably can't. -=-I think if you looked at those that are living a "hopeless existence" they probably went to school. -=- Yes, but that's not all they did, or had, or were subjected to. -=-But I have known MBAs that were borderline retarded (again, I exaggerate, but pretty darn close) and people without degrees that are brilliant. How can that be explained? -=- Mental health? Relationships with others? Talent? Luck? And exaggeration isn't as good as clear, honest, straightforward reports. -=-Until we can let go of the false assumption that school = success, that school = the golden ticket, that school = educated, we're doomed to the endless hamster wheel we as a society are on. I find it astounding that it's such a hard cycle to break. -=- Calling something that is not universally false "a false assumption" makes it more difficult to see what is false and what is true. Indignation can be a lot of fun, but for the purposes of discussing how learning works, calm clarity is more valuable. Sandra |
Re: Slightly OT: Lego Educator sets
John and Amanda Slater
________________________________
From: Rebecca McClure <ackirebecci@...> I was wondering if anyone had ever bought a Lego Educator set. I was looking at the Simple and Motorized Mechanism Set.<Yes, we have a few of them kicking around. And we have Mindstorms, too. Mindstorms is a sizable step up as it does require some object-oriented programming to get the robots to do what they are supposed to do, which your kids may or may not enjoy at this stage of their Lego-ing. If your kids like motorized things and you think that they would enjoy something open-ended to expand their Lego adventures, then one of the motorized educational sets (like the one you are suggesting) might be a great fit. I am surprised to hear they are open ended. I thought they came with some guidance and instruction. That was really what we were looking for. We own tons of legos and I thought this would introduce new elements and help them figure out what to do with them. They hate the pictures of cool ideas without instructions. They like either a pile of legos with no goal, or detailed instructions. * The Klutz kit that Sandra mentioned isn't motorized but it has lots of gears and the activities are great, if your kids like following the instructions. And if you add on the Power Functions kit, they can likely figure out some interesting ways to put the two together! **** I saw that in my searching. I was going to save it for a trip. I thought it would be perfect for someplace we needed a compact project. My son (9 years) also really enjoys the motorized pre-fab projects. He has learned so much about Lego construction principles from doing sets like this, it's amazing! I used to be a bit of a snob about this stuff, thinking that "open-ended" was best, but I've changed my mind based on watching my son apply what he's learned via the project-based sets to his own projects. **** This is exactly what my boys do. They build with the instructions the first time and then the pieces get added to our collection. They take ideas from things they have seen or made and incorporate them into their own creations. I would be interested in buying a ready made set, but at the moment I don't think Lego is selling any that include Power Functions, or even help on how you could include them. I might check e-bay to see what I can find used. I also can't find a set that uses gears in the way Eli wants. For example, using one gear to transfer power to another gear. Good luck with your decision. I suspect it's very hard to ever go wrong with Lego. **** Lego are everyone's favorite toy at our house! Thanks for all your information Rebecca! Amanda Eli 8, Samuel 7 |
Re: attack and parry, for your amusement
***And I appreciate your suggestion of finding some other form of
entertainment, however I really wasn't talking about how tv effects adults, although I believe it does. I was talking about its influence on children. And I am sure if I knew you and your grown children better I could point out plenty of things they did as a result of watching tv.*** I honestly think most kids who have positive parents, thinking positively about the world, will get from tv, things that will most likely be positive, since the environment in which they are dwelling IS positive. My kids have been positively influenced by tv, just as they've been positively influenced by their parents. If this person has kids and is saying "bad, wrong, dangerous" about things in the world in general, tv included, then kids will likely carry that kind of negative thinking around in their thoughts. The kids will not think positively about their parents and their idiotic thoughts, especially once they are old enough to suddenly realize that they have their own minds and thoughts. ***I am sorry your not willing to hear your veiwers opinions.*** OHHH I LOVE that one! Clearly, "hearing" is the same as agreeing and doing. I bet they do the same thing to their kids... "turn the tv off and clean up your room." .... no response, then "you're not listening, I told you to turn the tv off and clean your room." I'm pretty sure the kid heard and listened to that demand, but chose to ignore it and not agree like a mindless robot. |
Re: Who can't unschool?
"People, parents especially, have been led to believe that they lack the knowledge to do something--anything-- without an expert (or institution) leading the way. School has been touted as the great equalizer; if you "stay in school" you can be anything you want to be. It is hard to turn your back on the hope schooling offers when you're surrounded by people living "hopeless" existences."
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I have been reading these threads with great interest. Personally I don't believe that there is anyone who "can't" unschool. Even the black families whose grandmothers didn't go to school (I'm paraphrasing because I can't find the entry again ;>) can unschool, but they choose not to because of the "promise" that an education = a better life. That is the biggest myth of all, IMO. As was said above, which I thought was perfectly put - except I would change the second sentence to: It is hard to BELIEVE in the hope schooling offers when you're surrounded by people living "hopeless" existences. That would be interpreted quite differently, wouldn't it? Just about everyone in my family has advanced degrees (except for me). My brother has a Masters degree in Journalism and was summarily laid off after devoting many years to the newspaper he worked for. He has become a success (in the sense that he makes a good living) not because of his schooling, but because he's a really good writer. And he would completely disagree with me. My sister has an MBA, and she has declared bankruptcy three times. So much for that meal ticket. Yet she vehemently defends her schooled education, even when she is one step away from homelessness (that's a bit of hyperbole). My Mom has a PhD, and is now living on social security and a meagher retirement income from a job that she could have easily done with or without an advanced degree. These people LOVED school, and I believe it's because it's the only place that somehow seemed to validate them. They understood the rules, ridiculous though they may have been, and they excelled at following them. My sister cannot bear for a minute to think about the idea that maybe she was tricked, that maybe more schooling doesn't necessarily mean a happy and successful life. I think if you looked at those that are living a "hopeless existence" they probably went to school. Everyone buys into the idea that "with an education, I'm equal to you". But I have known MBAs that were borderline retarded (again, I exaggerate, but pretty darn close) and people without degrees that are brilliant. How can that be explained? Until we can let go of the false assumption that school = success, that school = the golden ticket, that school = educated, we're doomed to the endless hamster wheel we as a society are on. I find it astounding that it's such a hard cycle to break. --- In AlwaysLearning@..., "sheeboo2" <naturewalkersinfo@...> wrote:
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