On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 12:32 PM, amberuby13 wrote:

If they are playing, they are learning.

and

Let the 6 and 7 year olds keep playing!

The whole post was inspiring.?

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What is Grandma's goal? To get your daughter to read??

Those pre-reader books are notoriously boring. Maybe okay for a 3-year-old (who nobody expects to read yet) but by 6 or 7 years old, they are too short and too dull.?

What is your daughter interested in? How about finding books with pictures and words that are all connected to your child's interests?

Mine has always been into animals, and she enjoys knowing all the different kinds of animals - their names - even knowing the various bird breeds, or horse or dog or cat breeds. We got books that had pictures of animals, and they also had words. She was also into dragons, so we had books that would list, say, all the dragon breeds in the How To Train Your Dragon movie series. Pokemon encyclopedias. Lego characters. In exploring books with pictures and words, there doesn't need to be an emphasis on your daughter being the one to read. Grandma, however, can use the words to know what things are called, and your daughter ends up exposed to the words by them being next to the pictures on the page.

This is legitimately how lots of kids learn - repeated exposure. Context Clues.

One of the first times my child read something out loud, in the wild, on her own, there was a sign for a Leasing Office for some condos in our neighborhood. She looked out the window and then asked me why that sign said "Off Ice" ... she saw On and Off a lot from video games she played, and she saw "ice" because of knowing various dragon types. Ice Dragons!

For letter sound awareness, we accidentally stumbled into a fun game where we took a song we made up (though it could be a song your child already knows and likes) and played around with singing the song but changing all the sounds of the words. For Grandma, she might be aware of an old song called The Name Game? It's similar to that.

Example:

Head, Shoulders, Knees and Toes, Knees and Toes
Head, Holders, Hees and Hoes, Hees and Hoes
Shed, Shoulders, Shees and Shows, Shees and Shows
Ned, Nolders, Nees and Nos, Nees and Nos,
Ted, Tolders, Tees and Toes, Tees and Toes

What's fun is when you change the sound but it makes a real word! Holders! Shed! Shows!

And it doesn't have to be a lesson - just tuck the idea into the back of your mind and if a song comes on that your kid likes, try singing the words differently for fun. Spontaneously.?

If they are playing, they are learning.

Another really fun game that we found that uses words - if Grandma isn't averse to playing with apps - is called Scribblenauts. You're presented with various puzzles to solve, which can often be solved in more than one way, by inserting adjective-noun combinations, and whatever you type in ends up created on the screen. So you don't even have to care about solving the puzzle. It is fun just to explore what kinds of combinations the game allows ... "Flashing Green Dragon" or "tiny bird" or "sparkling shovel"?

Maybe with some of these other suggestions of how to play with words, Grandma can leave behind the boring pre-reader books? I promise you - kids don't need to see a list of sight words in a row (ill / dill / pill / bill / hill) in order to eventually learn how to read those words.

As for books - there are some pretty funny books, beautiful books, playful books out there.

illuminature by Rachel Williams & Carnovsky plays with color and lenses to reveal old-timey animal illustrations, with the names of the animals on the following page.?

Flip books of various kinds let you mix and match animal name pieces to create new creatures - we have Flip-O-Saurus, Flip-o-Storic, and Myth Match. Kangodile is another one that's similar.

Alphabet books can be pretty basic and good for little kids but as they get older, you might enjoy something like P is for Pterodactyl.

Sticker books??

Silly poetry? My husband taught us this poem by Spike Mulligan from his childhood:

Mad-Libs??

In case Grandma has only tried reading aloud from pre-readers, maybe some chapter books would be more interesting? The Zoey & Sassafras series was fun for us. Make it more about the stories than the act of reading.

The beauty of children learning to read with unschooling is that their exposure to letters and words and grammar and stories doesn't need to be so dry and formal as it is in school (where everything must be measurable). Language is fun. Etymology is cool. Rhyming is playful. Even the act of writing can be seen as artistic pursuit, with all the incredible calligraphers out there. Connect language to exploration of interests, new and old.

Let the 6 and 7 year olds keep playing!

?

Another good Joyce quote:

"Reading is inevitable in a nuturing atmosphere where the person sees a need to read.

. . . .

"Teachers, even specialists in a particular field of learning, are experts *only* on schooled kids who have school goals to meet by a specific age. They don't realize that those kids aren't natural kids. They don't realize that school is a huge contributing factor in the children's behavior because school, like oxygen, is apparently universal. They have no idea what a natural child is like."

—Joyce Fetteroll

Another Joyce quote!? (I'm working on links to Joyce's things, so....)

"A three year old isn't a better three year old by being able to read. A three year old is a better three year old by being helped to do what fascinates her."

—Joyce Fetteroll



It goes for most ages. :-)? Definitely for six, almost seven.

I know that when a family member suggests doing something “school-y” with one of my kids, I can sometimes jump too fast to the assumption that I’m being judged or disapproved of. It has helped me to step back from that feeling and, in response to the suggestion of an activity that I don’t think will go well, cheerfully and enthusiastically suggest an alternative that I know will be more fun for my kid. It’s possible your mother-in-law is just looking for a new way to connect and spend time with your daughter. And if she doesn’t know much about unschooling — some of my extended family only know that we “homeschool” — she might even think that her offer to read with your daughter is helpful to YOU, and a sign of her support for what you’re doing.?

If you keep it happy and light and make it clear that you love the idea of her spending time having fun with your daughter (assuming, of course, that you do), she might be grateful for the suggestion of an activity that your daughter really will enjoy.?

If, on the other hand, you offer alternatives your daughter will enjoy, and support them happening, and your mother-in-law STILL pushes reading instruction, then you have more information to help you decide whether and how you want to tell her more about your approach to supporting your daughter’s learning.?

A couple of things that might help the mom, or for the mom and grandmother to consider together.?

WAIT.? Before I bring these, maybe the mom needs more background to consider.? Maybe not.
MAYBE the grandmother wants to hear more about unschooling.? Probably not.? :-)

"If it's not fun don't do it" should apply to everyone in the situation, as far as possible.? My kids had a grandmother (not my mom) who pressured them some about behavior, and eating the food they were given.? It never scared them or shamed them; it made them think she was a bit odd, sometimes, and they politely resisted when appropriate, or went along with it if they wanted to. :-)

The grandmother shouldn't feel shamed or pressured either.? ?Children are learning that different adults are different.? That's probably more importat than the details of an attempted reading activity.

Okay, the links:
Something I just came across that Joyce wrote:

When Does Independence Arrive?

and Jo Isaac's data on reading ages:



Earlier graphs here:

[in response to "i just wonder if DD is involved in this discussion?"]

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I don't think the daughter should be involved.? That's too much responsibility.? And discussing what unschooling is and how it works and how school can hurt has been (in some cases) somewhere between disturbing and distracting to children.? Let them live it, not analyze or study it.??

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>>>In other areas I don't have hesitations with Grandma wanting to "teach" DD (crafts, cooking, etc). I have read some of the experiences with parents regretting the reading lessons they tried to impose on their not-reading-yet children and I don't want DD to end up feeling small because of it.<<<

In situations like this, it is a good idea to look at what kind of relationship your daughter has with Grandma. My mom taught my kids all kinds of things. I didn't balk at it because of the way she went about it. My kids didn't interpret it as grandma pushing an agenda. They saw it as grandma caring and wanting to have fun with them. My kids' relationship with my mom was such that even reading and sounding things out was fun. If they got something wrong, it wasn't a big deal. That was because my mom had a way of making things fun. When their other grandma wanted to do "fun" stuff with my kids, I bristled because she could make anything arduous and painful. With my mom, I let things play out. If there was something that made my kids uncomfortable, I encouraged them to discuss it with me. In many cases, they would tell grandma that they didn't like what they were doing and grandma would adjust because she was genuinely enjoying the company of the kids. Their other grandma has a tendency to make people feel small no matter what is going on. Their other grandma was very controlling and was very much of the opinion that kids should do as they are told and not complain.

All of my kids are young adults now and my mom has passed on. Their other grandma is still around yet my kids have pretty much cut her off because of all the times she made them feel small or stupid or like she didn't much care. It is important to consider the overall relationship between the child and grandparent.

>>>Should I ask Grandma not to ask DD to read to her? Should I let it play out? If this happens at the library and I am not there, then I wouldn't be able to stop things if DD were uncomfortable.<<<

You are the only one that can answer these questions because you know your daughter and the Grandma. Some questions to consider are: Does grandma have a habit of steamrolling your daughter? What does it look like when your child is uncomfortable? I have four kids. For some of them, uncomfortable is them going quiet. For others, uncomfortable led to a full on melt down at 7 years old. My parents could do pretty much anything with my oldest and it was fine because of the relationship they had. With my younger kids, I found creative ways of keeping them out of situations that I didn't think they could handle. By the time my youngest kids came around, my parents were older and didn't have the time or energy to have a relationship with them. There is no way I would let them do the same things they did with the oldest. The oldest trusted them and they were in a very different place in life. It was all about the individual relationships and the individual children.

Connie

I would want to somehow lead grandma to develop an aversion to any school learn-to-read books!??

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On Wed, Apr 2, 2025 at 07:08 AM, Lollizah wrote:

my daughter (who is nearly 7)

She's six.? Don't raise it up in the grandmother's range. :-)? She's only six.??

it's possible that your daughter will have fun.

The first thing I would say to the grandmother is "if it's not fun for her, change the game to looking at pictures."? Maybe if the child is talking about pictures and names something that's in the text, it wouldn't hurt for someone to say "there's 'tree'" or something, but not a long "lesson" about phonics.

This might help, if the grandmother doesn't think talking about the pictures is good for anything. It's one of the skills of writing.?



From that page, something by Pam Sorooshian:??

Good conversation is really writing development. Sometimes I see parents who kind of shush their kids or get obviously bored when their kids are telling them a rather long drawn-out story (like retelling a movie plot). But retelling a tv or movie plot or telling everything that happened, in order, in a video game are really great for writing. In fact, all that verbal stuff—conversation, summarizing movies, persuading or arguing, playing games, etc.—is MUCH better for developing good writing than practicing writing in the artificial ways that schools do it.

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—辫补尘

I hope other people have good ideas, too, and I hope people will see your question.? ?

Sandra

My mother-in-law told me that she would like to start "reading with" my daughter (who is nearly 7). She further explained that she wants to go to the library and get some of those "pre-school type reading books" and have DD read to her.

I am not sure about this. In other areas I don't have hesitations with Grandma wanting to "teach" DD (crafts, cooking, etc). I have read some of the experiences with parents regretting the reading lessons they tried to impose on their not-reading-yet children and I don't want DD to end up feeling small because of it.

I can hear my own advise to someone else being to ask Grandma to only read to her instead, but DD doesn't like to be read to. She enjoys going through picture books and "being the pages" where we make up converations and interactions with characters.

Should I ask Grandma not to ask DD to read to her? Should I let it play out? If this happens at the library and I am not there, then I wouldn't be able to stop things if DD were uncomfortable.

I appreciate your advise!

Lollizah?

On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 10:30 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

Engineering!? I think it's engineering, not physics.? Sorry.

?SO many of the unschoolers who used to be the nine-year-old subjects of stories in this discussion and others are in universities now, or jobs, or marriages or two out of three, that the factoids swirl around me.? :-)

Sandra

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—Amy Childs, 2014