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Re: Foreword to the 2nd edition #event

 

I totally forgot. The second small group sentence wad REMOVED by the literature committee at some point. According to GSO archives, the removal of the sentence was brought to the attention of GSO in the 90's. The sentence was Put Back in the 37th printing of the third edition. There was No conference action, and no vote. It was just put back, since there was no action or vote to remove the sentence in the first place. I dont think we figured in what printing the sentence first didnt appear. ?I do some digging
Re: Foreword to the 2nd edition #event

 

If the forewords were changed they would not be "THE" forewords as written. They are left in the book for historical reasons. Like Thom pointed out, there have been several changes. To my knowledge, ?reading advisory actions, and GSC reports, the changes when " caught" by someone, have always been changed back by conference vote. Some changes were put back without a vote because the chagees should not have been made by literature committee or the publishing committee. Also, whomever contributed to the foreword may have Concrete reason to believe a small group was in fact meeting IN Cleveland in 1937. We dont know for a fact that passage is a " mistake" or historically wrong
Re: Foreword to the 2nd edition #event

 
Edited

Eugene,

I must comment on something that you said because in the interest of accuracy I believe it needs to be clarified. And even refute it.

But before I begin I want you to know that I truly value your membership in this group. Please do not think this is personal at all. I'm just trying in the interest of accuracy to put out a point and back up that point with a bit of evidence. I hope you receive this message in the spirit with which it's intended.

You said this: "One answer though that the front part of the book is frozen."

My, I believe necessary, response is that it absolutely is not frozen. The front of the book gets changed all the time. There are lots of examples but I'll give you one nice fat juicy one just to prove the point.

Here's one gross example of something being changed in a forward, the Forward to the 4th Edition, last paragraph, that happened after the third printing of that edition.

And for the life of me, I can't find any conference action that approved that change, it seems that someone took it upon themselves to do it without even asking the conference, without asking the groups or even asking the areas what they thought of the change. This change was, no evidence to prove otherwise, made behind closed doors and in secret. And what's worse is that nobody has tried to fix it since.

In fact, lists have been made (you can even find them here on AA History Lovers on both platforms) where it has been proven that more than 400 changes (and counting) of the so-called sacred parts of the Big Book including the beginnings, have been done since the first printing.

Some of these changes are benign, some were even necessary but some of them were as totally insane and against the spirit of group conscience as this example I am presenting. And here it is:

Go ahead and compare the attached screenshot from my personal copy of the last paragraph of the first printing of the 4th edition Forward to any modern copy or any printing after the fourth printing until current. Please look at them closely side by side. See if you can notice the difference and if so, let me ask you, please, why would a sentence like that be removed in the first place, especially without any conference action and arguably even against previous conference actions precluding changes like this to be made willy-nilly-- when over time that removed sentence has only become even MORE true then it was back then?

And if it WAS removed there and square, I would take no issue on that. But in all these years I haven't found any proof from anywhere in anyone and believe me I have tried, I have asked everybody I can find and nobody can tell me the answer. So I would have no personal problem with it being removed even if I disagreed if it was done correctly, but it wasn't.

And since there's no documentation of why this occurred, I can only speculate. The only explanation that makes sense to me is that it was removed due to prejudice, fear and hatred for the idea of meetings on any other platform other than face to face meetings.?

Well isn't that strange since the big book itself was designed to be read by The loner in the first place? But that's a different topic and I've done entire talks and workshops on that which are available on places like recoveryspeakers.com just search for me and you'll find them, in fact look for the one called "A Vision For Us" if? you're interested. There's two of them, actually, and they're both different. One is about the context of the big book and the other one is a short history of digital AA.?

So come in short, it's a misnomer to think that the front part of the book is actually frozen. It's not. It gets changed all the time. They have even made contextual? changes to Dr Bob's Nightmare in the 4th edition and nobody batted an eye.

Thom R.
AAHL Moderator

PXL_20221030_152101192.MP.jpg

Re: Foreword to the 2nd edition #event

 

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Sorry i sent that email to quickly. To me I dont see anything that needs correcting. In the context its written makes enough sense. But to answer your question there are several known errors in the book that they wont change like removing Credit to Herbert Spencer for that famous quote. There are lots of opinions why things are the way they are but they just are.?
One answer though that the front part of the book is frozen.

On Oct 30, 2022, at 2:11 PM, Greg H Mahan via groups.io <ghmahan@...> wrote:

?

I have the date but will have to go through boxes of archives to be curtain.? It was just weeks after the BB was published in 1939 that the Cleveland's first meeting was held at an Oxford Group Member home.
Cleveland went from 1 Group to 30 in 12 month..
I'll find my copy of 'How It Worked" about Clarence Snyder story for details this week...
Greg M
Trust God - Clean House -?Help Others!!!


P/W 324477



On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 07:02:50 PM EDT, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie@...> wrote:


One of the recurring themes in Schaberg's book is that BW was really bad at dates.? The 2nd? Edition was published in 1955.? The group was founded in the 1930s, almost twenty years earlier.

It is plausible that this was an honest mistake.

Tommy H

On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 5:49 PM Just Walter via <waltmou=[email protected]> wrote:
I cannot find any info on the topic of the 3rd AA Group's actual start date. I have often wondered why the foreward to the 2nd Edition states "... to be followed in 1937 with the start of a third at Cleveland." We know that Clarence Synder's sober date isn't until early 1938 and he famously broke the Cleveland contingent from Akron in early 1939 so why does this foreword still say that the 3rd group started in 1937? I have a hard time exlaining this to sponcees.


--
Eugene Lane
Redondo Bch Ca
Re: aa digital meetings

 

Greg
AAHistory Symposium(AAHS) event so they would have the say about sharing it.
Anyone have contacts there?

Best Regards,
Barry Murtaugh
773.851.2100

[Moderator comment: ask Jackie B over at the Facebook AAHL. But at the very least it would have to be converted into an audio only file (mp3) because sharing an mp4 file contains video and that would be an anonymity break by anyone's definition. -Thom R.]


On Oct 30, 2022, at 4:12 PM, Greg H Mahan via groups.io <ghmahan@...> wrote:

Any chance of sharing the MP4 file?? Thanks ~Greg M
?
?
Re: aa digital meetings

 

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Excellent clarification Thom.
The important details.

Best Regards,
Barry Murtaugh
773.851.2100

On Oct 30, 2022, at 4:26 PM, Thom R. <thomr021092@...> wrote:

?One minor clarification, Barry, if I may?

Lamplighters did not use the GE corporate Network. They used a publicly available dial up subscription service that anyone could join called GEnie. The group started in 1991. It was dial up only and numbered about 50 members until 1993 when GEnie put in an internet gateway.? Because of some more shall we say non-GEnie members and even members who weren't respecting the third tradition, something called a listserv was created.?

At this point the group broke away from GEnie and became an email group.

They used a list at simplelist.com for a while for email communications because email was ubiquitous even in 1993 and that way everyone can be included.

At that point they started to elect officers and did all kinds of different things including some of the members helping to form the Online Intergroup that exists to this day

The Lamplighter's group of Alcoholics Anonymous was also considered to be a closed meeting for alcoholics only.

This is an important distinction because the way your message reads currently, you seem to be alluding that they used some sort of internal corporate network for employees only and that's simply just not true. Otherwise, I sure wouldn't have been able to have been a member.?

Again, GEnie was a public subscription service that anyone could sign up for. It was a precursor to other ones such as America Online.

There were other subscription services you could access by analog modem back then as well. Some of them were Dow Jones, The Source, CompuServe and Prodigy. There were also others.?

I just wanted to clarify all of that.

And the source for this, all of this, is me. I was there. I watched it happen and this message is my experience.

Thom R.
AAHL Moderator

Re: aa digital meetings

 

One minor clarification, Barry, if I may?

Lamplighters did not use the GE corporate Network. They used a publicly available dial up subscription service that anyone could join called GEnie. The group started in 1991. It was dial up only and numbered about 50 members until 1993 when GEnie put in an internet gateway.? Because of some more shall we say non-GEnie members and even members who weren't respecting the third tradition, something called a listserv was created.?

At this point the group broke away from GEnie and became an email group.

They used a list at simplelist.com for a while for email communications because email was ubiquitous even in 1993 and that way everyone can be included.

At that point they started to elect officers and did all kinds of different things including some of the members helping to form the Online Intergroup that exists to this day

The Lamplighter's group of Alcoholics Anonymous was also considered to be a closed meeting for alcoholics only.

This is an important distinction because the way your message reads currently, you seem to be alluding that they used some sort of internal corporate network for employees only and that's simply just not true. Otherwise, I sure wouldn't have been able to have been a member.?

Again, GEnie was a public subscription service that anyone could sign up for. It was a precursor to other ones such as America Online.

There were other subscription services you could access by analog modem back then as well. Some of them were Dow Jones, The Source, CompuServe and Prodigy. There were also others.?

I just wanted to clarify all of that.

And the source for this, all of this, is me. I was there. I watched it happen and this message is my experience.

Thom R.
AAHL Moderator
Re: aa digital meetings

 

Any chance of sharing the MP4 file?? Thanks ~Greg M

Trust God - Clean House -?Help Others!!!


P/W 324477



On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 07:05:21 PM EDT, Barry Murtaugh <murtaughjbarry1@...> wrote:


? Penny P and Michael B gave a talk at AA History Symposium earlier this year. I have an mp4 of their talk. They were there. Have to listen to it to get their earliest recollections. But I recall that bulletin boards on rudimentary government networks were consequential because they were the only online resource. Later ?AA¡¯s known as GE Lamplighters used the GE corporate network to have regular meetings. Long before modems became available to general use.

Best Regards,
Barry Murtaugh
773.851.2100

On Oct 29, 2022, at 4:49 PM, delaney0694@... wrote:

?What year was the first digital/virtual meeting?

Re: Foreword to the 2nd edition #event

 


I have the date but will have to go through boxes of archives to be curtain.? It was just weeks after the BB was published in 1939 that the Cleveland's first meeting was held at an Oxford Group Member home.
Cleveland went from 1 Group to 30 in 12 month..
I'll find my copy of 'How It Worked" about Clarence Snyder story for details this week...
Greg M
Trust God - Clean House -?Help Others!!!


P/W 324477



On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 07:02:50 PM EDT, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie@...> wrote:


One of the recurring themes in Schaberg's book is that BW was really bad at dates.? The 2nd? Edition was published in 1955.? The group was founded in the 1930s, almost twenty years earlier.

It is plausible that this was an honest mistake.

Tommy H


On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 5:49 PM Just Walter via <waltmou=[email protected]> wrote:
I cannot find any info on the topic of the 3rd AA Group's actual start date. I have often wondered why the foreward to the 2nd Edition states "... to be followed in 1937 with the start of a third at Cleveland." We know that Clarence Synder's sober date isn't until early 1938 and he famously broke the Cleveland contingent from Akron in early 1939 so why does this foreword still say that the 3rd group started in 1937? I have a hard time exlaining this to sponcees.

Re: Foreword to the 2nd edition #event

 

I need to clarify my question. I know and understand that the Cleveland contingent was traveling to Akron from 1936 thru 1938 but did not meet on their own in Clevland until 1939. To be more accurate my question is, why has this date not been corrected in further printings and editions??
Re: Foreword to the 2nd edition #event

 

We know that Clarence started a group in Cleveland for drunks, called A.A. because he had Mitchell K write about it in a book.
Perhaps we " know" a third group of drunks wad meeting in Cleveland beccause the Second Edition states this. It seems very odd that the Clevelanders were only meeting together when they drove to Akron on Wednesday nights. Perhaps the writers of the Second Edition Foreword knew some specifics about the Cleveland group that never made it into a book or was not documented. Perhaps the foreword is true and accurate.Bill W was Not the only person to work on second edition of bb. Many were involved in producing that book.
Re: Foreword to the 2nd edition #event

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Starting in April 36 Joe Doppler was the first documented cleveland ?person to get sober. He was followed by 7 more documented people by the end of 1938. ?We dont know how if their were others.. ?They drove 35 miles to ?Akron on wednesdays for the weekly oxford group meeting at the williams¡¯s. ?These were not AA. The group that had formed in NY were at first oxford groupers that broke off and met at Bill house. They possibly call themselves a nameless group of drunks and ?it wasn¡¯t until after the book had come out that they started calling themselves alcoholics anonymous.?
There was a Group in Akron, A group in New York and a group from Cleveland who traveled to Akron. In May of 39 they became the 3rd independent group. The early Clevelanders were a small contingent or group whose origins started in 1936-37 and later formally became an independent 3rd group.?
Gene?
?

On Oct 29, 2022, at 2:49 PM, Just Walter via groups.io <waltmou@...> wrote:

?I cannot find any info on the topic of the 3rd AA Group's actual start date. I have often wondered why the foreward to the 2nd Edition states "... to be followed in 1937 with the start of a third at Cleveland." We know that Clarence Synder's sober date isn't until early 1938 and he famously broke the Cleveland contingent from Akron in early 1939 so why does this foreword still say that the 3rd group started in 1937? I have a hard time exlaining this to sponcees.

--
Eugene Lane
Redondo Bch Ca
Re: aa digital meetings

 
Edited

That talk is excellent and Penny and I go back many many years that's for sure.

I also did a talk on the subject of digital AA. It can be found here:?

Update: I forgot to mention I too was a lamplighter. I also was extremely active on Usenet, FIDOnet, many other platforms that existed back then. Some of them still exist now. Was doing online AA like a fiend since the late 80s and have never stopped. :)

Thom R.
AAHL Moderator
Re: aa digital meetings

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

?Penny P and Michael B gave a talk at AA History Symposium earlier this year. I have an mp4 of their talk. They were there. Have to listen to it to get their earliest recollections. But I recall that bulletin boards on rudimentary government networks were consequential because they were the only online resource. Later ?AA¡¯s known as GE Lamplighters used the GE corporate network to have regular meetings. Long before modems became available to general use.

Best Regards,
Barry Murtaugh
773.851.2100

On Oct 29, 2022, at 4:49 PM, delaney0694@... wrote:

?What year was the first digital/virtual meeting?

Re: Foreword to the 2nd edition #event

 

One of the recurring themes in Schaberg's book is that BW was really bad at dates.? The 2nd? Edition was published in 1955.? The group was founded in the 1930s, almost twenty years earlier.

It is plausible that this was an honest mistake.

Tommy H


On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 5:49 PM Just Walter via <waltmou=[email protected]> wrote:
I cannot find any info on the topic of the 3rd AA Group's actual start date. I have often wondered why the foreward to the 2nd Edition states "... to be followed in 1937 with the start of a third at Cleveland." We know that Clarence Synder's sober date isn't until early 1938 and he famously broke the Cleveland contingent from Akron in early 1939 so why does this foreword still say that the 3rd group started in 1937? I have a hard time exlaining this to sponcees.

Cultural changes impact on AA

 

Reading Tradition 10 in all my meetings this week. No opinion on outside issues. But, at times, outside societal/cultural issues cause pressure for change within AA.
Examples: admit women; admit blacks; admit people "with addictions worse than alcoholism". Obviously,? our Tradition 3 sets for the requirement for membership.?
However, when new people come in and have ideas for change within AA, it creates controversy. We are currently facing a controversial issue and becoming bitterly divided.?

I'd like to hear historical information on how groups adjusted to societal changes within their groups, within AA. Requests to adjust literature,? readings, sharing, stories to include more diversity without alienating our majority.

I do NOT want this thread to become a discussion of our current issue. I would like historical information on how all this was handled. The bitterness against the Traditions,? the pamphlet from Bill about Problems Other than Alcohol., the letter and story about Irma.?

Thanks much

In love and service

Doris R
aa digital meetings

 

What year was the first digital/virtual meeting?
Foreword to the 2nd edition #event

 

I cannot find any info on the topic of the 3rd AA Group's actual start date. I have often wondered why the foreward to the 2nd Edition states "... to be followed in 1937 with the start of a third at Cleveland." We know that Clarence Synder's sober date isn't until early 1938 and he famously broke the Cleveland contingent from Akron in early 1939 so why does this foreword still say that the 3rd group started in 1937? I have a hard time exlaining this to sponcees.
Re: Is this group still alive?

Charles Knapp
 

Thanks for the heads up!? ?You know not everyone has a Facebook account but more people has an email account.? I have posted things in this group that has gotten reposted in the Facebook group.? It's a shame that cant go both ways. Guess if I want this group to be better it's up to me. Cant sit back and complain if I am not willing to take some action.? Will try and be heard from more often.

Charles from Wisconsin

[Moderator comment: That would be wonderful! Just keep in mind that this particular version of the group isn't designed for high volume it's designed for high density. It is being run exactly to the same guidelines as Nancy, Arthur, and Glenn before me confront it and I'm doing it on their own documentation I only update those guidelines when necessary due to changing times.

That being said, consider this the academic or "classic" version of AAHL, if you will. And again it's very tightly moderated compared to the Facebook group which is also moderated but in a different way and a lot of things are allowed to be posted there because it's more social whereas here it's meant to be academic, strictly. And it's moderated very tightly because that's the way the group conscience has wanted it for all of these years. I still feel very confident that if somebody asks a difficult question that would be nearly impossible to find out anywhere else, we would all come together and find the answer here.

This version is tightly moderated, except perhaps for this special thread that is explaining a few things of course because I think it's probably important to help people here understand what's going on or what might not be going on in this group compared to the social media version.?

So yes, while the Facebook version IS growing by leaps and bounds and even Glenn thought I was crazy to attempt that platform (and he was right haha!) I truly feel that this version is actually alive and well and it's intended and original purpose, because this version won't compromise and stays true to the ideals of the founders and moderators and users and members and history lovers that have come before.

Even this message is done as a moderator comment so is not to inflate the post count because it's not about that. It's really about this: when there's a need for it and when someone has one of those tough history questions or wants to share that rare bit of AA history without judgment and without drama, in a way where we can all come together and agree to disagree LOL... "AAHL Classic"? will be here. -Thom R.]
Re: Is this group still alive?

 

Most of the action is on the Facebook group though I hope that any valuable information that appears there will make its way here as Facebook's search function is very unreliable and their viability as a long term archival site is not knowable. The Facebook group has several diligent researchers who regularly post and share, though some members of the group appear hostile to the concept of unearthing and studying AA history. Our moderator does a good job trying to keep it clean of member conflict and irrelevant posts.
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