Re: Rowland Hazard's name misspelled. Significance?
Tularosa Basin Hist Society published a 52 page book on his La Luza Pottery 2009 Spring
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On Sep 13, 2020, at 7:35 PM, 0943 <ralphcoon@...> wrote:
?I was aware of his ranch in New Mexico. I do not know what "52 page soft bound Name on cover Roland John Schram" from your post means.
Those wishing to read more about Hazard, see: Finch's Stellar Fire: Carl Jung, A New England Family, and the Risks of Anecdote also Finch's Additional Notes to Stellar Fire. See also "Rowland Hazard and The Beginnings of AA in Dubiel's The Road To Fellowship. Those in Rhode Island may wish to research Dalpe and Stattler's A Guide To The Rowland Hazard III Papers at the Rhode Island Historical Society. Also Down's Men Of New England and Hazard's obituary "Rowland Hazard Dead in 65th Year", Providence Journal 12/21/45
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Re: Rowland Hazard's name misspelled. Significance?
See White's Slaying The Dragon for starters. Baylor was a product of the Emanuel Movement, as was Peabody, who taught Baylor. Hazard was a product more of these men (Worcester, McComb, Peabody and Baylor) and their ideas about alcoholism than either Jung. Hazard was more a product of the Emmanuel Movement's Weekly Health Conferences than the Oxford Groups House parties.
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Re: Rowland Hazard's name misspelled. Significance?
I was aware of his ranch in New Mexico. I do not know what "52 page soft bound Name on cover Roland John Schram" from your post means.
Those wishing to read more about Hazard, see: Finch's Stellar Fire: Carl Jung, A New England Family, and the Risks of Anecdote also Finch's Additional Notes to Stellar Fire. See also "Rowland Hazard and The Beginnings of AA in Dubiel's The Road To Fellowship. Those in Rhode Island may wish to research Dalpe and Stattler's A Guide To The Rowland Hazard III Papers at the Rhode Island Historical Society. Also Down's Men Of New England and Hazard's obituary "Rowland Hazard Dead in 65th Year", Providence Journal 12/21/45
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Re: Rowland Hazard's name misspelled. Significance?
Evening You already may know that Hazard had a pottery factory in New Mexico "La Luz Pottery"52 page soft bound Name on cover Roland John Schram
-----Original Message-----
From: 0943
Sent: Sep 13, 2020 1:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Rowland Hazard's name misspelled. Significance?
I'm currently researching Rowland Hazard. In looking at Wilson/Jung letters Re: Hazard written in 1961, both Wilson and Jung misspell Rowland's name as "Roland." In looking through internet image searches of the original letters, it seems both Wilson and Jung misspell his name. Then things get confusing. ?In internet searches of discussions of the Wilson/Jung letters re: Rowland where people enter the data of the letters themselves, they ostensibly correct "Roland" ?to "Rowland." ?In Pass It On (page 381) ?Wilson's letter to Jung is discussed, reprinting the data of the letter only. Bill's misspelling here remains. However, on the next page (page 383) in Jung's reply letter, the data is the correct spelling of "Rowland."
I'm bring this up because G. Chesnut had an interesting theory, but to my research, Chesnut's info is incorrect, but his theory remains Re: misspelling. In The book The Road To Fellowship by Richard Dubiel on page 162 n191, Chesnut discusses the misspelling: "It (the misspelling) is significant that Bill, in his letter to Jung, misspelled Hazard's fist name as 'Roland,' leaving out the W in the middle (Pass It On P. 382). Someone from Switzerland (remembering the famous Song of Roland and other continental European usages of the name in that spelling) would have simply assumed that this was the correct spelling, barring any other information to the contrary. Roland with the W is in fact the only form that the spell checker in my American word processing program regards as correct. And yet Jung, in his letter of replay, quietly correct the spelling and referred to the businessman as 'Rowland' with a W (Pass It On Page 383). This seems a clear indication that Jung either still remembered what would have seemed to him an odd spelling of the name, or had old case files to refer to. In either eventuality, Jung clearly had been in some sort of contact with Rowland Hazard somewhere along the way."
Now according to my research, Chesnut is wrong: Along with Wilson, Jung also misspells Rowland's name.
Why does any of this matter? According to my research and new dissertation papers written about Hazard accessing newly found Hazard Family papers at the Rhode Island Historical Society, Hazard DID NOT spend a year studying with Jung as AA history tradition has told us (me). He spent more like a couple of weeks. He seems not to even have been remembered by Wilson or Jung much, hence the name misspelling.
That Hazard spent more time with Courtenay Baylor learning from Baylor and his (Baylor's) Emmanuel Movement's psychological approach to dealing with alcoholism as opposed to Jung's "You need a spiritual experience to deal with this alcoholism" as AA tradition tells us (me) seems apparent.
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Re: Rowland Hazard's name misspelled. Significance?
don't know if you received it but sent you a brief on Rolands time in New Mexico John Schram
-----Original Message-----
From: 0943
Sent: Sep 13, 2020 1:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Rowland Hazard's name misspelled. Significance?
I'm currently researching Rowland Hazard. In looking at Wilson/Jung letters Re: Hazard written in 1961, both Wilson and Jung misspell Rowland's name as "Roland." In looking through internet image searches of the original letters, it seems both Wilson and Jung misspell his name. Then things get confusing. ?In internet searches of discussions of the Wilson/Jung letters re: Rowland where people enter the data of the letters themselves, they ostensibly correct "Roland" ?to "Rowland." ?In Pass It On (page 381) ?Wilson's letter to Jung is discussed, reprinting the data of the letter only. Bill's misspelling here remains. However, on the next page (page 383) in Jung's reply letter, the data is the correct spelling of "Rowland."
I'm bring this up because G. Chesnut had an interesting theory, but to my research, Chesnut's info is incorrect, but his theory remains Re: misspelling. In The book The Road To Fellowship by Richard Dubiel on page 162 n191, Chesnut discusses the misspelling: "It (the misspelling) is significant that Bill, in his letter to Jung, misspelled Hazard's fist name as 'Roland,' leaving out the W in the middle (Pass It On P. 382). Someone from Switzerland (remembering the famous Song of Roland and other continental European usages of the name in that spelling) would have simply assumed that this was the correct spelling, barring any other information to the contrary. Roland with the W is in fact the only form that the spell checker in my American word processing program regards as correct. And yet Jung, in his letter of replay, quietly correct the spelling and referred to the businessman as 'Rowland' with a W (Pass It On Page 383). This seems a clear indication that Jung either still remembered what would have seemed to him an odd spelling of the name, or had old case files to refer to. In either eventuality, Jung clearly had been in some sort of contact with Rowland Hazard somewhere along the way."
Now according to my research, Chesnut is wrong: Along with Wilson, Jung also misspells Rowland's name.
Why does any of this matter? According to my research and new dissertation papers written about Hazard accessing newly found Hazard Family papers at the Rhode Island Historical Society, Hazard DID NOT spend a year studying with Jung as AA history tradition has told us (me). He spent more like a couple of weeks. He seems not to even have been remembered by Wilson or Jung much, hence the name misspelling.
That Hazard spent more time with Courtenay Baylor learning from Baylor and his (Baylor's) Emmanuel Movement's psychological approach to dealing with alcoholism as opposed to Jung's "You need a spiritual experience to deal with this alcoholism" as AA tradition tells us (me) seems apparent.
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Re: Rowland Hazard's name misspelled. Significance?
Are these dissertation papers available anywhere?
Thom
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Re: Rowland Hazard's name misspelled. Significance?
Fascinating. I've never heard of Baylor's Emmanuel Movement. Is there more about this somewhere?
John G
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Rowland Hazard's name misspelled. Significance?
I'm currently researching Rowland Hazard. In looking at Wilson/Jung letters Re: Hazard written in 1961, both Wilson and Jung misspell Rowland's name as "Roland." In looking through internet image searches of the original letters, it seems both Wilson and Jung misspell his name. Then things get confusing. ?In internet searches of discussions of the Wilson/Jung letters re: Rowland where people enter the data of the letters themselves, they ostensibly correct "Roland" ?to "Rowland." ?In Pass It On (page 381) ?Wilson's letter to Jung is discussed, reprinting the data of the letter only. Bill's misspelling here remains. However, on the next page (page 383) in Jung's reply letter, the data is the correct spelling of "Rowland."
I'm bringing this up because G. Chesnut had an interesting theory, but to my research, Chesnut's info is incorrect, but his theory remains Re: misspelling. In The book The Road To Fellowship by Richard Dubiel on page 162 n191, Chesnut discusses the misspelling: "It (the misspelling) is significant that Bill, in his letter to Jung, misspelled Hazard's fist name as 'Roland,' leaving out the W in the middle (Pass It On P. 382). Someone from Switzerland (remembering the famous Song of Roland and other continental European usages of the name in that spelling) would have simply assumed that this was the correct spelling, barring any other information to the contrary. Roland with the W is in fact the only form that the spell checker in my American word processing program regards as correct. And yet Jung, in his letter of replay, quietly correct the spelling and referred to the businessman as 'Rowland' with a W (Pass It On Page 383). This seems a clear indication that Jung either still remembered what would have seemed to him an odd spelling of the name, or had old case files to refer to. In either eventuality, Jung clearly had been in some sort of contact with Rowland Hazard somewhere along the way."
Now according to my research, Chesnut is wrong: Along with Wilson, Jung also misspells Rowland's name.
Why does any of this matter? According to my research and new dissertation papers written about Hazard accessing newly found Hazard Family papers at the Rhode Island Historical Society, Hazard DID NOT spend a year studying with Jung as AA history tradition has told us (me). He spent more like a couple of weeks. He seems not to even have been remembered by Wilson or Jung much, hence the name misspelling.
That Hazard spent more time with Courtenay Baylor learning from Baylor and his (Baylor's) Emmanuel Movement's psychological approach to dealing with alcoholism as opposed to Jung's "You need a spiritual experience to deal with this alcoholism" as AA tradition tells us (me) seems apparent.
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File /Glenn F Chesnut AA History/Audio Glenn Chesnut Memorial 09-12-2020.mp3 uploaded
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The following files have been uploaded to
the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Thom R.
Description:
The audio track from the Glenn F. Chesnut Memorial on 09-12-20.
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Re: File /Historical and Local Pamphlets/p-6 Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W.(retired pamphlet).pdf uploaded
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But it WAS still selling. It was much more popular than many other pamphlets still. We do not need to speculate. I've spent a few thousand dollars of my own money and much time trying to find out what happened to this pamphlet and the people who did this have been tight lipped.?
Thom
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Re: File /Historical and Local Pamphlets/p-6 Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W.(retired pamphlet).pdf uploaded
#file-notice
You have probably heard all the usual reasons so what Im about to say you already heard. ?One thought that crossed my mind is people aren¡¯t interested in the medical side and Bills talks can be long. Perhaps groups werent buying that pamphlete and they decided take honest look at the stock in trade like it says in the 4th. ?If its not selling get it off the shelf. Gene
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On Sep 12, 2020, at 8:58 AM, [email protected] Notification <[email protected]> wrote:
? The following files have been uploaded to
the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Thom R.
Description:
Originally published in 1949 and out of copyright in the US, this pamphlet was "retired" recently for reasons that, for the life of me, I cannot get a straight answer to. If anyone can shed any light on the true reason(s) this pamphlet was "retired" please let us all know. This is an incredible pamphlet and even included the best (only) verbose version in Bill's own words, the six steps as Ebby gave them to him.
I am making it available here on AAHL not only because of its immense historical value but also in protest. I have spent a lot of time, effort and even money travelling to regionals, etc. trying to get answers but am never given true, direct answers even by those who rammed it through (without any actual stated reasons that I could find in the Conference background nor by direct questions to the committees involved, as to what exactly was wrong with this pamphlet where the PI/CPC committee (an outward facing committee it can be argued) of panel 68 was able to decide for all of us inside AA itself that this pamphlet should be taken from us. They did this while the literature committee just sat back and watched, without objection, as it was forced through a very busy GSC that has over 90 items on the agenda to tear through. All of this stinks to high heaven and some answers would be nice. In the meantime, can anyone spot anything in this historical pamphlet that would be so "dangerous" to the internal AA fellowship that it should be taken away from us wholesale? Because I sure can't. --Thom
--
Eugene Lane
Redondo Bch Ca
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Re: File /Glenn F Chesnut AA History/History of AA History Lovers Glenn Chestnut.pdf uploaded
#file-notice
Asks me to log in. [Moderator comment: Yes, you have to sign up for a free groups.io account and subscribe in order to download from the file bases here. It's no different than Yahoo was in that regard. -Thom]
Best Regards
Barry Murtaugh
773.851.2100 mobile
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On Sep 12, 2020, at 9:42 AM, Jim <jimincancun@...> wrote:
Link will not open?
?
The following files have been uploaded to the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Thom R.
Description:
The History of AA History Lovers by Glenn F. Chesnut-- and WE, together, are just getting started in writing the next chapter(s) and to continue this!
?
?
?
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File /Historical and Local Pamphlets/p-6 Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W.(retired pamphlet).pdf uploaded
#file-notice
The following files have been uploaded to
the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Thom R.
Description:
Originally published in 1949 and out of copyright in the US, this pamphlet was "retired" recently for reasons that, for the life of me, I cannot get a straight answer to. If anyone can shed any light on the true reason(s) this pamphlet was "retired" please let us all know. This is an incredible pamphlet and even included the best (only) verbose version in Bill's own words, the six steps as Ebby gave them to him.
I am making it available here on AAHL not only because of its immense historical value but also in protest. I have spent a lot of time, effort and even money travelling to regionals, etc. trying to get answers but am never given true, direct answers even by those who rammed it through (without any actual stated reasons that I could find in the Conference background nor by direct questions to the committees involved, as to what exactly was wrong with this pamphlet where the PI/CPC committee (an outward facing committee it can be argued) of panel 68 was able to decide for all of us inside AA itself that this pamphlet should be taken from us. They did this while the literature committee just sat back and watched, without objection, as it was forced through a very busy GSC that has over 90 items on the agenda to tear through. All of this stinks to high heaven and some answers would be nice. In the meantime, can anyone spot anything in this historical pamphlet that would be so "dangerous" to the internal AA fellowship that it should be taken away from us wholesale? Because I sure can't. --Thom
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File /White and Research Papers and Timelines/The_Washingtonians_The_12_Traditions.pdf uploaded
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The following files have been uploaded to
the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Thom R.
Description:
The birth of the Twelve Traditions, a narrative timeline by Arthur S.
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The following files have been uploaded to
the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Thom R.
Description:
"This pamphlet is pre conference approved AA literature, it is no longer in use, the main purpose of this document is to educate fellow researchers on the history of A.A it should not be used for any other purpose. it was the first full publication of the Twelve Traditions after they were first introduced in the AA Grapevine of that time. It is an original copy of the pamphlet, it is complete and unabridged in content enjoy!
Works Publishing is now known as Alcoholics .Anonymous World Services."
--Intro to the pamphlet itself
The following files have been uploaded to
the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Thom R.
Description:
"The James Club" by Dick B.
The following files have been uploaded to
the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Thom R.
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The classic text "Why We Were Chosen" as delivered in an Address by Judge John T. on the 4th Anniversary of the Chicago Group, October 5, 1943
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?
The following files have been uploaded to the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Thom R.
Description:
A comprehensive study guide to the Big Book, 552 pages, by AA member Ken W. (2002). No claims are made by AAHL or myself as to it's objectivity or accuracy. Perhaps we can figure that out together?
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Thom R. added folder /White and Research Papers
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The following files have been uploaded to the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Thom R.
Description:
A comprehensive study on AA Recovery Outcome Rates co-authored by Arthur S, (Arlington, TX), Tom E, (Wappingers Falls, NY) and Glenn C, (South Bend, IN), v1.10
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?
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Re: File /Glenn F Chesnut AA History/History of AA History Lovers Glenn Chestnut.pdf uploaded
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I put http:// in front of the hyperlink and it opened so that I could download it on my android device. Haven't tried in on pc with windows10.
On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 7:51 AM, Thom R. <thomr021092@...> wrote: Jim,
I just tested it again and it does open. It's not actually a web site link, it's pointing to the file in the file bases here, in the folder "Glenn F Chesnut AA History" file name "History of AA History Lovers Glenn Chesnut.pdf" which is a PDF file that you must download and open with a compatible PDF reader or web browser. All modern operating systems and most devices are compatible with reading this format out of the box. I am not sure what you are using to try to open this link, but I have tested it and it does work on both Windows 10 and Android. Try another device or browser? Download the file first, then try to open it maybe? In Windows, one can "right click" the link and choose "Save Link As" to save the file, for example. And Chrome is an example of a browser that is definitely compatible with PDF files if you do not want to install a standalone reader (this is true on Android, also). On any standard iOS device or Mac, you should also have no trouble opening it. Just tested with an iPad and it worked, as well.
Maybe try a different device to try to isolate the problem? I am thinking it's something going on with the device or software you are using to view the message.
If I can be of any further assistance please let me know.
Best,
Thom
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Re: File /Glenn F Chesnut AA History/History of AA History Lovers Glenn Chestnut.pdf uploaded
#file-notice
Jim,
I just tested it again and it does open. It's not actually a web site link, it's pointing to the file in the file bases here, in the folder "Glenn F Chesnut AA History" file name "History of AA History Lovers Glenn Chesnut.pdf" which is a PDF file that you must download and open with a compatible PDF reader or web browser. All modern operating systems and most devices are compatible with reading this format out of the box. I am not sure what you are using to try to open this link, but I have tested it and it does work on both Windows 10 and Android. Try another device or browser? Download the file first, then try to open it maybe? In Windows, one can "right click" the link and choose "Save Link As" to save the file, for example. And Chrome is an example of a browser that is definitely compatible with PDF files if you do not want to install a standalone reader (this is true on Android, also). On any standard iOS device or Mac, you should also have no trouble opening it. Just tested with an iPad and it worked, as well.
Maybe try a different device to try to isolate the problem? I am thinking it's something going on with the device or software you are using to view the message.
If I can be of any further assistance please let me know. I'm happy to email it to you if the problem continues for you, as well.
Best,
Thom
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Thanks, hope I can make it ?
This #event, Glenn;s memorial, is TODAY at 1PM pacific!?
Please join us as we celebrate the life and legacy of AA historian and fellow, Glenn C. (Southbend, IN).
Hosted by Jackie B., 2021 Chair of the A.A. History Symposium, and Thom R., moderator of the AAHistoryLovers Group.
DATE: Saturday, September 12, 2020
TIME: 1:00 - 3:00pm PDT (4PM-6PM EDT, 9PM-11PM BST/GMT)
ZOOM ID: 881-1483-2224
PASSWORD: 1935
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Re: File /Glenn F Chesnut AA History/History of AA History Lovers Glenn Chestnut.pdf uploaded
#file-notice
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
The following files have been uploaded to
the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Thom R.
Description:
The History of AA History Lovers by Glenn F. Chesnut-- and WE, together, are just getting started in writing the next chapter(s) and to continue this!
|
Thom R.
Gene