History of Twelve Concepts
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?Jeffrey A. Your, M.B.A., C.S.M.M.
- Science Buyer??
?Manager, Central Scientific Stores and Laboratory Support Services?? ?John Carroll University? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
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Re: Tradition 3 - What was the addiction?
We can't go there James. That's a double negative.
If you want to dismiss someone for not having so-called evidence, then you need to provide that evidence yourself. We don't get to dismiss somebody for lack of evidence without providing any evidence ourselves that directly proves that the source being dismissed was derelict in their documentation.
AAHL debunking myths and folklore or even popular narrative? Yes, of course! That is one of our prime objectives. And we do it through documentation, not dismissal.
And then we have this next point:
?
Sometimes, James, things ARE folklore. The way I read Arthur's work, by not providing a source he's basically challenging us to go find one because he couldn't.
Arthur's body of work is of such high regard that I wouldn't believe for a minute that he was deliberately being slothful and not providing a source-- if he had one to provide. It appears to me that, instead, and in true classic AAHL fashion, he is reporting what he has found to be the narrative and by not giving the source... he's basically saying there isn't one.
?
So rather than dismiss him, how about those among us who wish to challenge this document look for some sources to challenge it with?
?
I have no plans to approve any more replies to this topic unless they truly shed some documented light on it. Any more commentary on the person behind the topic needs to bring more to the table than just an opinion.
?
Because like everything else in the world, sometimes we have to take what we like and leave the rest.
?
-Thom R.
AAHL Moderator
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Re: Tradition 3 - What was the addiction?
I love Arthur S and his work, don't get me wrong...
But I re-read this carefully, and I have real problems with it.
Arthur is making claims without providing any evidence.
Arthur claims: "It also happens to be the source of one of
the most enduring myths in AA. I don't know what else to
call the myth other than the Akron drug addict who didn't exist."
Evidence?
Arthur claims: "Parts of the story are often erroneously
intermingled with another incident that occurred 8 years
later in 1945"
Evidence?
Arthur was quite the contrarian, and enjoyed proving wrong what he
considered "AA folklore". I believe in this instance he found some
inconsistencies in the AA literature, and jumped to conclusions
about it.
I suggest we label this one a mystery rather than a myth. I don't
think there is enough evidence either way.
James in Dallas
On 4/2/2022 4:25 PM, Bruce C wrote:
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Show quoted text
In the "12&12" Tradition 3 essay (pgs 141-142) it
states that on the
AA calendar it was "year two" of the Fellowship - that
would be 1937. A prospective member asked to be
admitted who frankly described himself to the "oldest"
member as "the victim of another addiction even worse
stigmatized than alcoholism." In an April 1968 open
meeting at the General Service Conference, Bill W
revealed
that the prospective member's so-called "addiction"
was "sex deviate" and that guidance came from Dr Bob
(the oldest member in Akron, OH) asking, "What would
the Master do?" Many people think Bill W said that but
he didn't.
The member with the so-called "addiction" was
admitted and plunged into 12th Step work. This
incident is also discussed in Dr Bob and the Good
Old-timers (pgs 240-241) and the pamphlet The
Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous (pg 30). Parts of
the story (particularly the part about the "addiction"
and plunging into "12th Step work") are often
erroneously intermingled with another incident that
occurred 8 years later in 1945 at the 41st St
clubhouse in NYC.
The 1945 incident is described in the book "Pass It
On" (pgs 317-318). Bill W was called from the
clubhouse in NYC by Barry L (he was the member who
later wrote the book "Living Sober"). Bill persuaded
the group to take in a black man who was an ex-convict
with bleach? blond hair, wearing women's clothing and
makeup. The man also admitted to being a "dope fiend."
?When asked what to do about it, Bill posed the
question, "did you say he was a drunk?" When answered
"yes" Bill replied "well I think that's all we can
ask."
Word of mouth accounts often erroneously, and
sometimes very, very solemnly, say that this
individual ?went on to "become one of the best 12??
Steppers in NY." The problem is that it's just not
true. In actual fact, the book Pass It On (pg 318)
states that "although he soon disappeared (repeat
"soon disappeared") his presence created a precedent
for the 3 rd Tradition."
Yours in History
and fellow History lover
?
Bruce Cleaver
|
Re: Tradition 3 - What was the addiction?
Thank you, Bruce. I believe this is important information that needs to be discussed around the fellowship, especially at Tradition meetings. ??Bob S ? * ?
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Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce C Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 2:02 PM To: [email protected]Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Tradition 3 - What was the addiction? ? In the recent discussion topic on Tradition 3 - What was his addiction?? I am sending you a copy of Arthur S.'s Traditions Study Guide. Please see pages 5 and 6 for the answer to this question. Year 1937.
[Moderator edit/note: I am uploading Arthur S''s Traditions Study Guide to our files section, please locate it there. Trivia: Arthur was the 2nd moderator of AAHL for a brief period after Nancy, and before Glenn (who then passed it on to me). -Thom] 1937: The next early experience that influenced the Traditions is recorded in the 12&12 essay on Tradition 3. lt also happens to be the source of one of the most enduring myths in AA. I don't know what else to call the myth other than the Akron drug addict who didn't exist and NY drug addict who disappeared
In the "12&12" Tradition 3 essay (pgs 141-142) it states that on the AA calendar it was "year two" of the Fellowship - that would be 1937. A prospective member asked to be admitted who frankly described himself to the "oldest" member as "the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism." In an April 1968 open meeting at the General Service Conference, Bill W revealed
that the prospective member's so-called "addiction" was "sex deviate" and that guidance came from Dr Bob (the oldest member in Akron, OH) asking, "What would the Master do?" Many people think Bill W said that but he didn't. The member with the so-called "addiction" was admitted and plunged into 12th Step work. This incident is also discussed in Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers (pgs 240-241) and the pamphlet The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous (pg 30). Parts of the story (particularly the part about the "addiction" and plunging into "12th Step work") are often erroneously intermingled with another incident that occurred 8 years later in 1945 at the 41st St clubhouse in NYC.
The 1945 incident is described in the book "Pass It On" (pgs 317-318). Bill W was called from the clubhouse in NYC by Barry L (he was the member who later wrote the book "Living Sober"). Bill persuaded the group to take in a black man who was an ex-convict with bleach? blond hair, wearing women's clothing and makeup. The man also admitted to being a "dope fiend." ?When asked what to do about it, Bill posed the question, "did you say he was a drunk?" When answered "yes" Bill replied "well I think that's all we can ask."
Word of mouth accounts often erroneously, and sometimes very, very solemnly, say that this individual ?went on to "become one of the best 12?? Steppers in NY." The problem is that it's just not true. In actual fact, the book Pass It On (pg 318) states that "although he soon disappeared (repeat "soon disappeared") his presence created a precedent for the 3rd Tradition."
Yours in History
Bruce Cleaver
[Moderator edit: I cleaned up and removed the private communications that were part of this (originally) private e-mail exchange. -Thom] -- Bob S
|
Tradition 3 - What was the addiction?
In the "12&12" Tradition 3 essay (pgs 141-142) it states that on the
AA calendar it was "year two" of the Fellowship - that would be 1937. A prospective member asked to be admitted who frankly described himself to the "oldest" member as "the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism." In an April 1968 open meeting at the General Service Conference, Bill W revealed
that the prospective member's so-called "addiction" was "sex deviate" and that guidance came from Dr Bob (the oldest member in Akron, OH) asking, "What would the Master do?" Many people think Bill W said that but he didn't.
The member with the so-called "addiction" was admitted and plunged into 12th Step work. This incident is also discussed in Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers (pgs 240-241) and the pamphlet The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous (pg 30). Parts of the story (particularly the part about the "addiction" and plunging into "12th Step work") are often erroneously intermingled with another incident that occurred 8 years later in 1945 at the 41st St clubhouse in NYC.
The 1945 incident is described in the book "Pass It On" (pgs 317-318). Bill W was called from the clubhouse in NYC by Barry L (he was the member who later wrote the book "Living Sober"). Bill persuaded the group to take in a black man who was an ex-convict with bleach? blond hair, wearing women's clothing and makeup. The man also admitted to being a "dope fiend." ?When asked what to do about it, Bill posed the question, "did you say he was a drunk?" When answered "yes" Bill replied "well I think that's all we can ask."
Word of mouth accounts often erroneously, and sometimes very, very solemnly, say that this individual ?went on to "become one of the best 12?? Steppers in NY." The problem is that it's just not true. In actual fact, the book Pass It On (pg 318) states that "although he soon disappeared (repeat "soon disappeared") his presence created a precedent for the 3 rd Tradition."
Yours in History
and fellow History lover
?
Bruce Cleaver
|
Re: Tradition 3 - What was the addiction?
Wow, thank you so much Bruce. That is very, very interesting.
Let me see if I have this straight what Arthur is putting forward:
The 1937 "Akron drug addict" story is AA folklore, and did not
happen.
The 1945 "ex-convict dope fiend with bleach-blond hair dressed in
women's clothing" incident *did* happen. But it happened in New York
not Akron.
Does that sound right?
It makes me smile when Bill fudges a story ? And then the story
clones itself into our books and thus into AA folklore.
Bill certainly didn't mind fudging a few details if it helped
illustrate a good point. A salesman thru and thru ?
James in Dallas
On 4/2/2022 1:02 PM, Bruce C wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I am sending you a copy of Arthur S.'s Traditions
Study Guide. Please see pages 5 and 6 for the answer
to this question. Year 1937.
[Moderator edit/note: I am uploading Arthur S''s
Traditions Study Guide to our files section, please
locate it there. Trivia: Arthur was the 2nd
moderator of AAHL for a brief period after Nancy,
and before Glenn (who then passed it on to me).
-Thom]
?
1937: The next early experience that influenced
the Traditions is recorded in the 12&12 essay on
Tradition 3. lt also happens to be the source of one
of the most enduring myths in AA. I don't know what
else to call the myth other than the Akron drug
addict who didn't exist and NY drug addict who
disappeared
In the "12&12" Tradition 3 essay (pgs 141-142)
it states that on the AA calendar it was "year two"
of the Fellowship - that would be 1937. A
prospective member asked to be admitted who frankly
described himself to the "oldest" member as "the
victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized
than alcoholism." In an April 1968 open meeting at
the General Service Conference, Bill W revealed
that the prospective member's so-called "addiction"
was "sex deviate" and that guidance came from Dr Bob
(the oldest member in Akron, OH) asking, "What would
the Master do?" Many people think Bill W said that
but he didn't.
The member with the so-called "addiction" was
admitted and plunged into 12th Step work. This
incident is also discussed in Dr Bob and the Good
Old-timers (pgs 240-241) and the pamphlet The
Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous (pg 30). Parts
of the story (particularly the part about the
"addiction" and plunging into "12th Step work") are
often erroneously intermingled with another incident
that occurred 8 years later in 1945 at the 41st St
clubhouse in NYC.
The 1945 incident is described in the book "Pass It
On" (pgs 317-318). Bill W was called from the
clubhouse in NYC by Barry L (he was the member who
later wrote the book "Living Sober"). Bill persuaded
the group to take in a black man who was an
ex-convict with bleach? blond hair, wearing women's
clothing and makeup. The man also admitted to being
a "dope fiend." ?When asked what to do about it,
Bill posed the question, "did you say he was a
drunk?" When answered "yes" Bill replied "well I
think that's all we can ask."
Word of mouth accounts often erroneously, and
sometimes very, very solemnly, say that this
individual ?went on to "become one of the best 12??
Steppers in NY." The problem is that it's just not
true. In actual fact, the book Pass It On (pg 318)
states that "although he soon disappeared (repeat
"soon disappeared") his presence created a precedent
for the 3rd Tradition."
Yours in History
and fellow History lover
?
Bruce Cleaver
[Moderator edit: I cleaned up and removed the
private communications that were part of this
(originally) private e-mail exchange. -Thom]
|
File /Study Guides/Traditions Study Guide by Arthur S..pdf uploaded
#file-notice
The following files and folders have been uploaded to
the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Thom R. <thomr021092@...>
Description:
An immaculate (as always when it comes to Arthur's work) 51 page Traditions Study Guide by 2nd AAHL curator Arthur S. (he was moderator of AAHL briefly after Nancy and before Glenn).
|
Tradition 3 - What was the addiction?
I am sending you a copy of Arthur S.'s Traditions Study Guide. Please see pages 5 and 6 for the answer to this question. Year 1937.
[Moderator edit/note: I am uploading Arthur S''s Traditions Study Guide to our files section, please locate it there. Trivia: Arthur was the 2nd moderator of AAHL for a brief period after Nancy, and before Glenn (who then passed it on to me). -Thom]
?
1937: The next early experience that influenced the Traditions is recorded in the 12&12 essay on Tradition 3. lt also happens to be the source of one of the most enduring myths in AA. I don't know what else to call the myth other than the Akron drug addict who didn't exist and NY drug addict who disappeared
In the "12&12" Tradition 3 essay (pgs 141-142) it states that on the AA calendar it was "year two" of the Fellowship - that would be 1937. A prospective member asked to be admitted who frankly described himself to the "oldest" member as "the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism." In an April 1968 open meeting at the General Service Conference, Bill W revealed
that the prospective member's so-called "addiction" was "sex deviate" and that guidance came from Dr Bob (the oldest member in Akron, OH) asking, "What would the Master do?" Many people think Bill W said that but he didn't.
The member with the so-called "addiction" was admitted and plunged into 12th Step work. This incident is also discussed in Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers (pgs 240-241) and the pamphlet The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous (pg 30). Parts of the story (particularly the part about the "addiction" and plunging into "12th Step work") are often erroneously intermingled with another incident that occurred 8 years later in 1945 at the 41st St clubhouse in NYC.
The 1945 incident is described in the book "Pass It On" (pgs 317-318). Bill W was called from the clubhouse in NYC by Barry L (he was the member who later wrote the book "Living Sober"). Bill persuaded the group to take in a black man who was an ex-convict with bleach? blond hair, wearing women's clothing and makeup. The man also admitted to being a "dope fiend." ?When asked what to do about it, Bill posed the question, "did you say he was a drunk?" When answered "yes" Bill replied "well I think that's all we can ask."
Word of mouth accounts often erroneously, and sometimes very, very solemnly, say that this individual ?went on to "become one of the best 12?? Steppers in NY." The problem is that it's just not true. In actual fact, the book Pass It On (pg 318) states that "although he soon disappeared (repeat "soon disappeared") his presence created a precedent for the 3rd Tradition."
Yours in History
and fellow History lover
?
Bruce Cleaver
[Moderator edit: I cleaned up and removed the private communications that were part of this (originally) private e-mail exchange. -Thom]
|
Re: Tradition 3 - What was his addiction?
Just to be clear, Barry L tells the story in that talk, but I don't believe he was that newcomer at the door in tradition 3.
He got sober in 1945, that newcomer arrived at the door in "year 2"
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Re: Tradition 3 - What was his addiction?
Thanks everyone for your replies.
But I am a little disappointed only because "sexual deviant" is
pretty non-specific. Leaves a lot of wiggle room, so to speak.
I've listened to the 1985 Barry Leach audio where he includes audio
of Bill Wilson's talk about Tradition 3, and neither got very
specific about it.
Oh well. One of those little AA mysteries I guess.
James in Dallas
On 4/1/2022 9:59 AM, Mark Everett
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Good morning continued –I have a definitive
source of my earlier comment…
?
Now I know where I read it.? Our
Great Responsibility – a great book from GSO
Archives where audio tapes of Bill’s talks at the General
Service Conference were painstakingly transcribed and put into
this book – on page 198, 8 lines from the top, in a
transcribed talk from the 1968 General Service Conference,
Bill tells us the other issue was that the person was a sex
deviant.
I hope this helps a bit.
?
?
?
In the 12&12, Tradition 3, page 142 it
says:
“But,” he asked, “will you let me join your group? Since I am
the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than
alcoholism, you may not want me among you. Or will you?”
What was his other addiction?
James in Dallas
|
Re: Tradition 3 - What was his addiction?
That was Barry L. He was gay and clearly full of self hatred at that time. He went on to author Living Sober and play a leading role in leading the way for gay and lesbian acceptance in Alcoholics Anomymous.?
Here's a link to his talk at the 1985 Montreal conference.?
.
Barry L.'s role in A.A. is detailed in the excellent book,?The History of Gay People in Alcoholics Anonymous:? From the Beginning, by Audrey Borden. Copies of her book are very expensive and can be found on Amazon.com.
On Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 5:34 PM James Ivey < jamesiv5@...> wrote:
In the 12&12, Tradition 3, page 142 it says:
“But,” he asked, “will you let me join your group? Since I am the
victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism,
you may not want me among you. Or will you?”
What was his other addiction?
James in Dallas
|
File /Historical Recordings/AA - Barry Leach on Tradition Three from Montreal AA International in 1985.mp3 uploaded
#file-notice
The following files and folders have been uploaded to
the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Thom R. <thomr021092@...>
Description:
Barry Leach, author of Living Sober. This is his last talk Barry L ever gave. It was the 50th anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous - Montreal 1985. He was speaking at the Gay and Lesbian panel about Tradition Three. Barry passed away 3 weeks after this talk.
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Re: Tradition 3 - What was his addiction?
|
Re: Tradition 3 - What was his addiction?
Good Morning, ? I have a note I wrote in my Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions that “In 1968, at the General Service Conference, Bill told the story of that person being a sexual deviant”.? Plus, ?from Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers, it is written that Dr. Bob was “the groups oldest member”.? I have no idea as to what particular sexual deviation that might have been. If I come across any further clarification of Bill’s words in my notes I’ll post it to the group.? Maybe this is enough for some other member to post that information before I finally locate it in my collection of information sources. ? Mark ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of James Ivey Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2022 2:56 PM To: [email protected]Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Tradition 3 - What was his addiction? ? In the 12&12, Tradition 3, page 142 it says:
“But,” he asked, “will you let me join your group? Since I am the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism, you may not want me among you. Or will you?”
What was his other addiction?
James in Dallas
|
Re: Tradition 3 - What was his addiction?
Good morning continued –I have a definitive source of my earlier comment… ? Now I know where I read it.? Our Great Responsibility – a great book from GSO Archives where audio tapes of Bill’s talks at the General Service Conference were painstakingly transcribed and put into this book – on page 198, 8 lines from the top, in a transcribed talk from the 1968 General Service Conference, Bill tells us the other issue was that the person was a sex deviant. I hope this helps a bit. ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of James Ivey Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2022 2:56 PM To: [email protected]Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Tradition 3 - What was his addiction? ? In the 12&12, Tradition 3, page 142 it says:
“But,” he asked, “will you let me join your group? Since I am the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism, you may not want me among you. Or will you?”
What was his other addiction?
James in Dallas
|
Tradition 3 - What was his addiction?
In the 12&12, Tradition 3, page 142 it says:
“But,” he asked, “will you let me join your group? Since I am the
victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism,
you may not want me among you. Or will you?”
What was his other addiction?
James in Dallas
|
10 Suggestions for Personal Work pamphlet
Hello group,
I'm wondering if anyone has a PDF of the Oxford Group pamphlet?10 Suggestions for Personal Work by Frank Buchman and Sherwood Eddy. I heard about it in a Recovery Speakers online talk and wonder if it influenced the BB chapter Working With others.
Thanks,
Don Valyou.
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Re: File /Books/Saints Run Mad, a Criticism of the Oxford Group, 1934.pdf uploaded
#file-notice
Nice to have more context to go along with fawning "memoirs" of the Oxford Group. Thanks!?
|
Mention of Sam Shoemaker and Calvary Church on page 84.
On 3/24/2022 8:38 PM, James Ivey wrote:
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Show quoted text
Thank you very much Thom. I noticed page 1 was missing ?
It is very interesting to have a critical view. She seems to have
a real chip on her shoulder but that makes it a more interesting
read LOL
Thanks!
James in Dallas
The following files and folders have been uploaded to the
Files area of the [email protected]
group.
By: Thom R. <thomr021092@...>
Description:
"Saints Run Mad - A Criticism of the 'Oxford' Group Movement"
by Marjorie Harrison. Released in 1934, right in the "thick of
things" in terms of AA history, this highly critical book of
the Oxford Group is quite as fascinating of a read as the book
is rare. But no matter, we have it now at AAHL. And so do you.
.**NOTE: This is the CORRECTED version that includes the page
one from my personal copy. If you have any other version,
you're probably missing page one. Delete that and grab this
one. I also repackaged the entire PDF and brought it up to
full PDF standards. -Thom R
|
Thank you very much Thom. I noticed page 1 was missing ? It is very interesting to have a critical view. She seems to have a real chip on her shoulder but that makes it a more interesting read LOL Thanks! James in Dallas
The following files and folders have been uploaded to the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Thom R. <thomr021092@...>
Description:
"Saints Run Mad - A Criticism of the 'Oxford' Group Movement" by Marjorie Harrison. Released in 1934, right in the "thick of things" in terms of AA history, this highly critical book of the Oxford Group is quite as fascinating of a read as the book is rare. But no matter, we have it now at AAHL. And so do you. .**NOTE: This is the CORRECTED version that includes the page one from my personal copy. If you have any other version, you're probably missing page one. Delete that and grab this one. I also repackaged the entire PDF and brought it up to full PDF standards. -Thom R
|
Thom R.
Bob S
Crescentdave