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Re: My mods - blade brush wheel / blade brushes / pulley brushes / chip pan
Ralph Hulslander
Good pictures, thanks! Ralph On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:39 AM Rob M. <robmuckley@...> wrote:
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My mods - blade brush wheel / blade brushes / pulley brushes / chip pan
I just wanted to share the mods I did for my 4x6.?
The blade brush wheel is made with a 1-1/4" wire brush wheel with 1/4" ID bore, 1/4" mini pillow block bearing, 1/4" x 1" long shoulder bolt, and a plastic spacer I turned on my mini lathe. The mounting bracket is made from a piece of sheet aluminum I had laying around. I painted? it black after it was completed. When I was testing it out, I mounted the pillow block to the bracket with sheet metal screws which were later replaced by #10 machine screws, washers, lock washers and nuts. I cut aluminum a lot and It works very well at removing chips that get stuck in blade. The other blade brushes keep most of the chips from getting on the guide bearings and pulley. They are made from plastic wire brushes, mounted with metal strips and held by rare earth magnets. The pulley brushes are made from small brass wire brushes mounted to some 90¡ã brackets that I bent open to about 150¡ã and are also held by rare earth magnets. Using magnets allows me to flip the brushes around easily as they wear. All of these brushes might seem overkill, but the brushes that wipe the sides of the blade don't do well at removing chips from the teeth, hence the brush wheel. I can say the inside of the saw is staying about 90% cleaner than it was without them. The chip pan is a plastic mud pan from Home Depot. It had two black metal strips in it that are for scraping the mud from your mud knife. I cut these and used them for mounting the pan. It's mounted using screws already on the saw for the lock pin and power cord brackets on the inside. I used the slot in the chip pan to hold a piece of aluminum sheet to cover the area leading to underneath the saw, which allow the chips to fall through into the pan. I will add all of these pics to a folder in photos section, under Rob M. |
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lubrication of worm gear box
Recently this topic came back up.?? It was
discussed extensively a couple of years ago and based on that, I ordered
a quart of? "Mobile SHC 634 ISO VG460."? This is an
expensive synthetic gear lube claiming to offer "superb wear
protection for bearings and gears."? It's AGMA 7/7S.? I
don't remember where I got it, but Amazon has it for about $37/qt.?
I'm nothing approaching a lubrication engineer.? This just
seemed to come out on top of the discussion, which included some people
seeming to know what they were talking about.? When I cleaned out
the gearbox there was none of the crud some report finding.? It was
clean.
Just posting this now as a found the container. am |
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Re: Drive belt tension
¿ªÔÆÌåÓý??? ??? I think the rule of thumb should be that weather ya buy yer saw new or used to open it up & check the fluid , check for fluid , & check the oil seals , mine was bone dry & had 3 oil seals on one side & none were correctly installed ??? ??? animal On 8/23/2020 4:17 PM, Robert Downs via
groups.io wrote:
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Re: Drive belt tension
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýSAE 85W90.? The real problem with the later saws made in China instead of Taiwan is that there is a fair probability that the gearbox will contain swarf (metal shavings).? So I would just play it safe, lay the saw over at an angle (so that half of the oil doesn¡¯t run out on the floor as soon as you break the seal on the cover) and clean out the gear box.? The newer the saw is, the more likely that is what you will find. ? Robert Downs ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chuck Peterson
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2020 11:52 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Drive belt tension ? What do you suggest? Hypoid? 50ish et?
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Re: Drive belt tension
Interesting, I got my Buffalo saw in about 1981 and it has seen a lot of use since. The gear set in my saw came packed with grease. It has been changed multiple times as seems to like White Lithium Grease. Saw recently cut 400 pieces of 2" 1144 StressProof for an order of rotary selector cams. Using a Bi-Metal blade the cuts ran about 1-1/2 to 2 minutes. gary
On Sunday, August 23, 2020, 01:03:53 PM CDT, Alan Muller <alan@...> wrote:
Good point.? Worm gears are high friction devices and
need proper lubrication. At 09:32 AM 8/22/2020 -0700, you wrote: Check the gear box for the condition of the lubricant. Most new machines have very poor quality lubricant (may look good to the eye but may not have proper antiwear additives) that may also be contaminated. I suggest changing it out for a quality lubricant. |
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Re: Drive belt tension
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýCongratulations to John Vreede for another insightful post that keeps us focused on the practical issues, like the fact that our HF 4 X 6 saws never need the power transmission capacity of any of the belts we are discussing, regardless of the belt type or pulley geometry. His earlier post was also valuable because it pointed out that a lot of the belt associated vibration problems with the HF band saw are related to the flimsy construction of the HF motor mount and sheet metal stand. If I think of the relative structural integrity of my Burke #4 mill or Atlas 10¡± lathe, where the spindles run in Timken roller bearings mounted in iron castings, it¡¯s pretty obvious why we have vibration issues with the HF band saw. ? Congratulations to Robert Downs, too, for not commenting on link-belts versus V-belts and risking reopening that long-running and inherently inconclusive thread. BUT¡ I use link belts on the Burke and the Atlas because, in both cases, the original belts broke when I was in the middle of a job and I didn¡¯t want to tear down a perfectly good spindle assembly to replace the standard V belts. I don¡¯t use link belts on any of my power tools that permit access to the belts without tearing down the spindle. In one recent case, I had a V belt fail on a jointer in the middle of a late Saturday night rush to finish a Christmas present. After a few minutes of despair, I realized I could remove one of the link belts from the lathe or mill and adjust its length to fit the jointer. Once the job was done and my V belt store was open, I put the proper V belt back on the jointer. Since then I keep a length of link belt in the shop, just in case. I don¡¯t have an opinion about whether the link or traditional V belt is better. It doesn¡¯t really matter in a non-production hobby shop. ? Sorry for risking reopening that horrible thread, Robert. |
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Re: Drive belt tension
I use an NLGI 2 extreme pressure (EP) molybdenum containing grease. This is likely overkill for the home shop service but it works well for anti-wear and is compounded for anti-rust and oxidation resistance too. Plus I already had some on the shelf in the garage.?
I made a transparent cover for the gearbox out of 1/4 inch Plexiglas to view the system. The grease film adheres well to the gears mating surfaces which is what is needed for lubrication. There is minimal temperature increase with run time meaning a low friction system. The drive belt is a link belt - it feels tight to finger pressure but can be deflected by perhaps 1/2 inch. I don't worry too much about this as the belt doesn't slip, doesn't vibrate and the pulleys are in alignment.? |
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Re: Drive belt tension
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On Aug 22, 2020, at 10:32 AM, Anthony Nagy <ajxnagy@...> wrote:
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Re: Drive belt tension
Good point.? Worm gears are high friction devices and
need proper lubrication.
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Show quoted text
At 09:32 AM 8/22/2020 -0700, you wrote: Check the gear box for the condition of the lubricant. Most new machines have very poor quality lubricant (may look good to the eye but may not have proper antiwear additives) that may also be contaminated. I suggest changing it out for a quality lubricant. |
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Re: Drive belt tension
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýI went to get an AX belt (cog looking one) for my bandsaw at our local SAECOWilson (Bearings, transmission parts place in New Zealand) the guys advised me to just get the standard A section belt. They said for the additional price I wouldn't see any difference on the 4x6bandsaw, he did explain why and was happy to sell me whatever I wanted. I don't remember what the reasoning was. I do enjoy going there as the guys are always very helpful, open with their advice and normally save me a bunch of $ by coming away with what I actually need rather than what I thought I wanted. I wanted the AX belt as I assumed it would be better on the smaller diameter pulleys. Unfortunately it was over 8 months ago I got the replacement belt and I don't remember the discussion, other than I would have happily paid the extra for the AX belt if I hadn't been convinced. The new standard belt I got was a lot more flexible than the old stiff cracked belt I replaced. I've also improved the rigidity of the motor plate and tension adjustment, not as well as John Vreede has, however it is a big improved over the original system. I'm happy with the standard belt. Thanks. On 23/08/20 10:18 am, Alan Muller
wrote:
Interesting discussion.? My suggestion would be to use a raw edge "cog" type belt.? "AX" section in most listings.? These transmit more power for several reasons, one being that the lower part of the belt doesn't bulge out as much when wrapped to a small radius. |
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Re: Drive belt tension
Interesting discussion.? My suggestion would be to use
a raw edge "cog" type belt.? "AX" section in
most listings.? These transmit more power for several reasons, one
being that the lower part of the belt doesn't bulge out as much when
wrapped to a small radius.
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The original point of the "L" belts (light duty) was to work better on small pulleys than the A belts of the day.? Today, for most purposes, AX belts are a better solution.? (Perhaps an exception is when the belt is used as a clutch). Opinions seem to vary widely on link belts.? I would only use them where changing a conventional belt is a big hassle.? Of for temporary emergency use. My own experience is that Taiwanese machines from the 80s came with crappy belts, and often with pulleys not running true.? Nowadays most belts seem to be made in Asia.? Many belts sold as "A" seem to actually be 13 mm and raid high in grooves. JMHOa. At 04:42 PM 8/22/2020 -0500, you wrote: If you have access to the actual original factory drawings of the 2, 3 or 4 step V-pulleys typically used on machine tools, you may find that the V-angle is smaller on the smallest diameter step than it is on the largest.?? And that in the case of 3 or 4-step ones, the angle(s) on the in-between steps are in between.?? This is to compensate for the ID being wider when the belt is bent around a smaller diameter.?? Whether this is true of the Taiwan and/or Chinese made pulleys on the 4x6 band saws, I don?€?t know.?? I?€?ve never looked at any of them that closely.?? They should be but may or may not be.?? I?€?ll skip commenting on link-belts versus V-belts. |
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Re: Drive belt tension
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýIf you have access to the actual original factory drawings of the 2, 3 or 4 step V-pulleys typically used on machine tools, you may find that the V-angle is smaller on the smallest diameter step than it is on the largest.? And that in the case of 3 or 4-step ones, the angle(s) on the in-between steps are in between.? This is to compensate for the ID being wider when the belt is bent around a smaller diameter.? Whether this is true of the Taiwan and/or Chinese made pulleys on the 4x6 band saws, I don¡¯t know.? I¡¯ve never looked at any of them that closely.? They should be but may or may not be.? I¡¯ll skip commenting on link-belts versus V-belts. ? Robert Downs ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Vreede
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 15:34 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Drive belt tension ? It occurred to me why the differences in belt performance are not that noticeable. _._,_._,_ |
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Re: Drive belt tension
It occurred to me why the differences in belt performance are not that noticeable.
The 4x6's pulleys are not made to standard so the belt wont be able to transmit as much power as its capable of, but a 4x6 is not using much power anyway. When the belt bends around the small 48mm pulley it will fatten up on the inside of the bend since the belt cords are all on the outside.? It won't fit in the bottom of the 36deg vee (where it would have if the vee was only 31deg) so the belt will just ride a little higher up the vee? than it should, and the speed increase you should get, won't be as great.? The saw won't run quite as fast. but you wont even notice.? ? Gary's post shows the range of machinery where A-section belts are used, the Tormach is rated at 1.5HP and jointers, table saws etc can be 3HP, where a 4x6 is only 1/2HP at best.? HF and others claim 1HP motors (High-school physics says Volts times Amps = Watts and there are 746W in a Horsepower, so if the motor draws 6.8A @ 110V = 748W - Hey that's 1HP!), but that is INPUT power not output, so at 30-40% efficiency the HF's motor is only a bit over 1/3HP at best.? NEMA and IEC rate induction motors as 'HP output at a given rpm', i.e. 1/2HP @ 1425rpm.? When you load them up so the revs drop below 1425, they give correspondingly higher HP, so a 1/2HP motor might be giving more than 1HP just before it stalls. 4x6's are rarely loaded up so much, you have to be running 12lb bow weight on high speed to stall at the end of a cut.? And then its only transmitting ~1HP, when 1/2" A-section belts can transmit 5HP.?? When running near the limit of the belt's power transmission capacity, then Gates and Dayco belts win out over cheap OEM belts every time. Fennerflex belts are unparalleled if you have to dismantle the whole machine just to replace the belt (as I would have had to do recently on a friend wood lathe - Fennerflex saved the day),? or have lots of machines all running A-section belts, then you willingly pay the extra cost - jv?? |
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Re: Drive belt tension
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýI suspect that most of the time, the comparison is between a new link belt and a 70+ year old V-belt.? One should probably expect the new belt to be more flexible than the ancient one!? Regardless of what type the new one was. ? Robert Downs ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Vreede
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 20:23 To: [email protected] Group Moderators Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Drive belt tension ? Hi all I've tried the following 1/2" wide belt variations that fit - A section raw edge, AX 'cog' belts?and link belts like Fennerflex, even an OEM belt that almost broke apart it was so perished.? (I haven't tried a wrapped edge (4L) belt meant for outdoor power equipment which has the same x-section but the wrapping would make it harder to bend around small diameters). I can't honestly say that one was any better than the other. Can't?even say that the link belts were 'smoother', which?is the common claim.? I bought 3 new belts (A, AX and Link) with the express purpose of seeing if I could tell the difference - I couldn't, at least not between A and AX and certainly not that made enough difference to justify 4x greater cost for the Link-type. I think this is because I re-engineered my motor mount and tensioner for solidity. Why people with a std set-up notice a positive difference when using this or that new belt, is probably due more to them tightening and realigning everything when installing the new belt (and why wouldn't you). When looking at how well a belt works you need to widen the scope to include the pulleys and mounting/tensioning as well:?? The 4x6 pulleys are not made to the belt manufacturers pulley dimension std.which has different?groove angles for different diameter ranges (the included angle gets narrower as the diameter decreases). The OEM pulleys are all 36deg, when the larger diameter ones should be 34 and the smallest 31deg.? The smallest diameter?pulley in the set (48mm) is actually below the minimum diameter given in the standard. That probably means the AX belt (with the 'cogged' inside looking like gear teeth) should work better as it's more easily able to wrap around the smaller pulley, but the belt manufacturers' std doesn't allow AX belts to run any smaller diameter than the solid A-section belt.? It didn't perform noticeably?better than the A-section either. The motor mount and tensioner system is very flimsy and prone to vibration, which excites vibration out of the panel steel stand.? What I have proven is that changing the motor mount and tensioner gave me the biggest reduction in vibration and noise of any modification I've made. Check my photo album for what I did, there is a sequence of 15 or so photos of a new mount, pivot bolts and tensioner, even stiffening up the old motor mount to work with the new tensioner. Sorry to be a fly in the ointment, but this is my experience - jv ? On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 8:59 AM Ralph Hulslander <rhulslander@...> wrote:
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Chuck Peterson
John Vreede