Re: Entire head coming down at an angle?
Thanks for the wonderful description John and for taking the
time/effort to explain this to us all, really appreciated for me.
Hope you have a wonderful Christmas.
Steve
On 20/12/23 23:48, John Vreede wrote:
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Hi Jon
While
what you've said is true with regard to brass synchromesh
pads in a manual gearbox, it's not true for the worm drive
in a 4x6 bandsaw.
I've
made a bit of a study of this 'yellow metal safe' topic.
While I'm not an oil specialist, I am an industrial
chemist and can sort through the chemistry of it.
Extreme
Pressure (EP) additives were developed to protect steel
hypoid
gears in the differentials?of cars and trucks from sliding
friction.??
Active
sulphur and phosphorus compounds in the EP additive,
bond to the gear surfaces to form a 'sacrificial film';?the higher the temperature,
the thicker the film.? The anti-wear film can be
produced at ambient temperatures just by rubbing
two?metal surfaces together, but the film is much
thinner than would be produced by rubbing at elevated
temperatures.?
It
works as 'anti-wear' because the film is weaker than the
steel substrate.? It breaks, or wears, away under high
load and then re-forms again afterwards, preserving the
surface of the gear.? That same film also forms on any
brass
present, but the film is stronger than the brass.?
It still breaks away, but it takes a bit of the surface of
the brass with it, eroding the brass.?
Also,
in the early days of EP additives, the active sulphur EP
compounds broke down at elevated temperatures to form
acids, which ate the
zinc in the brass.
The corrosive potential of any oil is
measured by ASTM D130, where a polished copper strip is
immersed in the oil at elevated temperature (300?F
(150?C) and above) for 3hrs and then the colour
of the strip compared to the standard's colour chart.? A
rating of '1B' (very slight tarnish) is considered
acceptable for ‘yellow metal safe’, but the colour chart
goes all the way to black! (a rating of '4C').
The amount
and type of EP additives in a gear oil is denoted by its
'GL' number. GL4 gear oils have only about
half of the level of EP additives of GL5 oils, so the?
thickness, and bond between the
sacrificial coating and the brass, is not as great as
for GL5 gear oils.?If
the bottle says "Exceeds requirements of GL4?and?GL5",
it has GL5 levels of EP additives.?When
measured, GL4 oils erode 2-4x less base
metal away than GL5's.? ?
Also
modern (>2020) GL5 oils have ‘deactivated’
or ‘buffered’ sulphur EP additives to stop acid
forming, so technically the oil companies can say "there
is no corrosion?(as
in ‘chemical eating away’)?with
GL5 oils".? However the sacrificial film erosion problem
still exists.?
The
reason GL5 oils will not corrode a 4x6's gearbox is
that the 4x6 works at a temperature of only 60~100F
(15~40C) where a car's gearbox operates close to 200F
(95C). The operating
temperatures are such that there is only a very thin
sacrificial
film.? So long as the EP additive is ‘deactivated’ or
‘buffered’, the 4x6
gearbox is safe, even at GL5 levels of EP additive. It's probably safe even if not
buffered , but I've not tested it so wouldn't recommend
it.
It's all
very well to say this is what happens 'in theory', but what
about 'in practice'.? Luckily?it is easily tested.?I have a piece of polished
brass sitting in Lucas 75W-140 GL5 gear oil on top of my
hot water cylinder, encased in polystyrene foam where it
sits at a constant 37C (98.5F). It's been there since
October 2019.?Testing?for corrosion?at the upper end of its
temperature use range is a harsher test than it would see
in real life.?
See for yourself in the pics
attached, that after 4 years of effectively 'accelerated?testing', the part is still
polished (the part that was in the oil is on the RHS - I'm
holding the?bit that stuck out in the air). Although the
picture doesn't show it, there is a very slight darkening
of the polished surface over what it?was when it went in
(shades of ASTM 1B rating?).? The brass gear will not
corrode away in my lifetime!
Hopefully the 'yellow metal safe'
oil myth is laid to rest insofar as the 4x6's gearbox is
concerned.? However, if I had a car with a synchromesh
gearbox, I'd be running it on GL4 - jv
Always look for a lubricant that specifically says ""?
<-----Click it!
Most of these saws have brass gear trains and will be
damaged by the corrosive action of oils that are not rated
for "Yellow Metal" -- eg. Brass.
Good Luck,
YMMV
On 12/18/2023 9:55 AM, packrat2050 via wrote:
In
reference to how much oil should be in the gear box.? DO
NOT fill it all the way to the top.? It just needs
enough oil to coat the worm shaft which transfers oil to
the worm gear. Its okay for the gear teeth to have
contact with the oil. My Grizzly 4 x 6 came from the
factory filled to the top in oil.? It ran hot all the
time, so hot you couldn't touch it. Popped the cover
off, Wala! oil gushed out, quickly replaced the cover.?
Doesn't run so hot now.? It's about half full of oil.? I
don't what the big deal is about using "shock
resistance" gear oil. Somebody blowing smoke about this.
Regular rear end gear oil should
be sufficient.
I've
had mine for twenty years now.? I've cut a lot of
material on mine, lost count how many blades I've gone
through over the years. So far the only replacement
parts I've had to buy was a new motor this year.? The
dirt dobbers won the battle fighting them from building
hives in the motor.? The new motor is a TEFC motor, not
a ODP motor originally supplied by Grizzly.? I need to
replace the bearings in the guides, just too lazy to do
so.?
?
Ken
|
Re: Entire head coming down at an angle?
Don't forget to add a nice window to your gearbox :-)? Mine's made of 1/2 inch Lexan with a neoprene gasket. Use your favorite sealant.? -Gary 
|
Re: Entire head coming down at an angle?
Hi Jon While what you've said is true with regard to brass synchromesh pads in a manual gearbox, it's not true for the worm drive in a 4x6 bandsaw.
I've made a bit of a study of this 'yellow metal safe' topic. While I'm not an oil specialist, I am an industrial chemist and can sort through the chemistry of it.
Extreme Pressure (EP) additives were developed to protect steel hypoid
gears in the differentials?of cars and trucks from sliding friction.??
Active sulphur and phosphorus compounds in the EP additive, bond to the gear surfaces to form a 'sacrificial film';?the higher the temperature, the thicker the film.? The anti-wear film can be produced at ambient temperatures just by rubbing two?metal surfaces together, but the film is much thinner than would be produced by rubbing at elevated temperatures.?
It works as 'anti-wear' because the film is weaker than the steel substrate.? It breaks, or wears, away under high load and then re-forms again afterwards, preserving the surface of the gear.? That same film also forms on any brass
present, but the film is stronger than the brass.?
It still breaks away, but it takes a bit of the surface of the brass with it, eroding the brass.?
Also, in the early days of EP additives, the active sulphur EP
compounds broke down at elevated temperatures to form acids, which ate the
zinc in the brass.
The corrosive potential of any oil is measured by ASTM D130, where a polished copper strip is immersed in the oil at elevated temperature (300?F (150?C) and above) for 3hrs and then the colour of the strip compared to the standard's colour chart.? A rating of '1B' (very slight tarnish) is considered acceptable for ‘yellow metal safe’, but the colour chart goes all the way to black! (a rating of '4C').
The amount and type of EP additives in a gear oil is denoted by its 'GL' number. GL4 gear oils have only about
half of the level of EP additives of GL5 oils, so the? thickness, and bond between the
sacrificial coating and the brass, is not as great as for GL5 gear oils.?If the bottle says "Exceeds requirements of GL4?and?GL5", it has GL5 levels of EP additives.?When measured, GL4 oils erode 2-4x less base
metal away than GL5's.? ?
Also modern (>2020) GL5 oils have ‘deactivated’
or ‘buffered’ sulphur EP additives to stop acid forming, so technically the oil companies can say "there
is no corrosion?(as in ‘chemical eating away’)?with GL5 oils".? However the sacrificial film erosion problem
still exists.?
The reason GL5 oils will not corrode a 4x6's gearbox is that the 4x6 works at a temperature of only 60~100F (15~40C) where a car's gearbox operates close to 200F (95C). The operating temperatures are such that there is only a very thin sacrificial
film.? So long as the EP additive is ‘deactivated’ or ‘buffered’, the 4x6
gearbox is safe, even at GL5 levels of EP additive. It's probably safe even if not buffered , but I've not tested it so wouldn't recommend it.
It's all very well to say this is what happens 'in theory', but what about 'in practice'.? Luckily?it is easily tested.?I have a piece of polished brass sitting in Lucas 75W-140 GL5 gear oil on top of my hot water cylinder, encased in polystyrene foam where it sits at a constant 37C (98.5F). It's been there since October 2019.?Testing?for corrosion?at the upper end of its temperature use range is a harsher test than it would see in real life.?
See for yourself in the pics attached, that after 4 years of effectively 'accelerated?testing', the part is still polished (the part that was in the oil is on the RHS - I'm holding the?bit that stuck out in the air). Although the picture doesn't show it, there is a very slight darkening of the polished surface over what it?was when it went in (shades of ASTM 1B rating?).? The brass gear will not corrode away in my lifetime!
Hopefully the 'yellow metal safe' oil myth is laid to rest insofar as the 4x6's gearbox is concerned.? However, if I had a car with a synchromesh gearbox, I'd be running it on GL4 - jv
Always look for a lubricant that
specifically says ""? <-----Click it!
Most of these saws have brass gear
trains and will be damaged by the corrosive action of oils that
are not rated for "Yellow Metal" -- eg. Brass.
Good Luck,
YMMV
On 12/18/2023 9:55 AM, packrat2050 via
wrote:
In
reference to how much oil should be in the gear box.? DO NOT
fill it all the way to the top.? It just needs enough oil to
coat the worm shaft which transfers oil to the worm gear. Its
okay for the gear teeth to have contact with the oil. My Grizzly
4 x 6 came from the factory filled to the top in oil.? It ran
hot all the time, so hot you couldn't touch it. Popped the cover
off, Wala! oil gushed out, quickly replaced the cover.? Doesn't
run so hot now.? It's about half full of oil.? I don't what the
big deal is about using "shock resistance" gear oil. Somebody
blowing smoke about this. Regular rear
end gear oil should be sufficient.
I've
had mine for twenty years now.? I've cut a lot of material on
mine, lost count how many blades I've gone through over the
years. So far the only replacement parts I've had to buy was a
new motor this year.? The dirt dobbers won the battle fighting
them from building hives in the motor.? The new motor is a TEFC
motor, not a ODP motor originally supplied by Grizzly.? I need
to replace the bearings in the guides, just too lazy to do so.?
?
Ken
|
Re: Entire head coming down at an angle?
?The saw have today I own for over 20 years.
I other that own front 1970's to 2004.
None had a brass gear problem.?
Dave?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Always look for a lubricant that specifically says ""? <-----Click it!
?
Most of these saws have brass gear trains and will be damaged by the corrosive action of oils that are not rated for "Yellow Metal" -- eg. Brass.
?
Good Luck,
YMMV
|
Re: Entire head coming down at an angle?
Always look for a lubricant that
specifically says ""? <-----Click it!
Most of these saws have brass gear
trains and will be damaged by the corrosive action of oils that
are not rated for "Yellow Metal" -- eg. Brass.
Good Luck,
YMMV
On 12/18/2023 9:55 AM, packrat2050 via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
In
reference to how much oil should be in the gear box.? DO NOT
fill it all the way to the top.? It just needs enough oil to
coat the worm shaft which transfers oil to the worm gear. Its
okay for the gear teeth to have contact with the oil. My Grizzly
4 x 6 came from the factory filled to the top in oil.? It ran
hot all the time, so hot you couldn't touch it. Popped the cover
off, Wala! oil gushed out, quickly replaced the cover.? Doesn't
run so hot now.? It's about half full of oil.? I don't what the
big deal is about using "shock resistance" gear oil. Somebody
blowing smoke about this. Regular rear
end gear oil should be sufficient.
I've
had mine for twenty years now.? I've cut a lot of material on
mine, lost count how many blades I've gone through over the
years. So far the only replacement parts I've had to buy was a
new motor this year.? The dirt dobbers won the battle fighting
them from building hives in the motor.? The new motor is a TEFC
motor, not a ODP motor originally supplied by Grizzly.? I need
to replace the bearings in the guides, just too lazy to do so.?
?
Ken
|
Re: Homemade Bandsaw Blade Welder
You have put a angle to solder joint. Like gluing leather belts.?
Then take a high strength silver solder.?
Butt type soldering does not work.
Dave?
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Re: Homemade Bandsaw Blade Welder
Cleanliness next to Godliness. Especially if you're using silver solder! You want the cleanest joint you can get. Very high proof alcohol, or acetone to degrease the ends, then scrub with a clean SS wire brush, and clean again! Then use a good flux. Borax (from the Boraxo company) is what my dad taught me to use. I've also done some jewelry work, and they use some fluxes with a bit of fluoride in the flux. It's more expensive... but it works well on precious metals, which are sometimes difficult. Borax is cheaper. You can also use Boric Acid. If you can use an oxy-acetylene torch with a fairly large tip. You need it heated to at least red heat as fast as possible. Dip the hot end in your flux. Repeat for the other end. Then align them, butt them together, and and heat both ends red hot again, while pressing them together and adding more flux! While they're still red hot add your solder after warming it and dipping it in the flux, too. Press them together some more, while heating. Then leave the joint alone until it's stone cold!?
You can dissolve borax in distilled water or alcohol, and IIRC, you can dissolve boric acid in alcohol, too. Been a really long time since I last used it. Though I've got about 3 pounds of boric acid sitting here. Borax is quite a bit cheaper, and works just as well in my experience. You can usually find a 4 or 5 pound box in the laundry detergent aisle of almost any grocery store for around $5 or $6...
Works for brazing a lot of other stuff, too.?
Bill in OKC
William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)
Aphorisms to live by: Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.? SEMPER GUMBY!
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.
On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 08:04:34 PM CST, Jim Frame via groups.io <jhframe@...> wrote:
I've never had good results with silver solder, I can never get it to
wet the joint thoroughly.? I'd be interested in learning what flux
people are using to get good results.
On 12/19/2023 5:57 PM, davesmith1800 wrote: > I have use high strength silver solder it work every time better than > blade welder I had. > > Dave > -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Frame? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? jhframe@...? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 530.756.8584 Frame Surveying & Mapping? ? ? ? 609 A Street? ? ? ? Davis, CA 95616 -----------------------< Davis Community Network >-------------------
|
Re: Homemade Bandsaw Blade Welder
I've never had good results with silver solder, I can never get it to wet the joint thoroughly. I'd be interested in learning what flux people are using to get good results.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 12/19/2023 5:57 PM, davesmith1800 wrote: I have use high strength silver solder it work every time better than blade welder I had.
Dave
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Frame jhframe@... 530.756.8584
Frame Surveying & Mapping 609 A Street Davis, CA 95616
-----------------------< Davis Community Network >-------------------
|
Re: Homemade Bandsaw Blade Welder
I have use high strength silver solder it work every time better than blade welder I had.?
Dave?
|
Re: Homemade Bandsaw Blade Welder
Most I have seen the internet used a transformer from microwave.??
They remove the high voltage windings then replace with just over one turn of very heavy copper sold wire .?
Will gives very high amperage at low voltage.??
Dave?
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Re: Sawing 1/8" thick that is much taller than vise jaws - solved
Interesting.
I have a hydraulic down-feed control, so when I am forced to cut
pieces like that, I just back off the feed rate, and let'r
rip.......slow. If I get a tuning fork ring, which our dog really
doesn't like, I just grab the plate anywhere handy with a pair of
Vise-Grips.
I get straight enough cuts that way.
Other Bill
On 12/19/2023 7:14 AM, Rick Sparber via
groups.io wrote:
I suspect most of you know this trick, but for the newbies:
Rick
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Re: Entire head coming down at an angle?
Regarding the gear oil and filling the gearbox:
Any oil marked ? _W-90? and listed as "safe for bronze", "protects copper and copper alloys", or similar will work If you are running your saw indoors.? There is no need for the home hobbyist to search out "the best" oil because the performance difference between the $6/quart and $25/quart products will never be noticed by people not running their saw for daily 8-hour shifts.? Save your money for where it matters, the blade.
(The same can be said for all the recommendations offered whenever someone asks about cutting oil.? If you are doing this as a hobby you will never notice any better performance with an industrial product than what you'll see using clean "motor oil" from a discount store.? Industrial products are formulated to improve efficiency: faster speeds and less tool wear.? In our basements where changing belt positions takes more time than what we'd save with optimal conditions efficiency is not a concern.)
My saw's manual gives the procedure for changing the oil: With the saw frame lowered put a pan under the gearbox.? Loosen the lower two screws until oil comes out, then slowly raise the saw frame until vertical.? Remove the cover and clean out the box with a soft cloth.? Lower the saw frame.? Add oil until the level is at the lower edge of the gearbox and install the lid.? You don't need to measure the amount of oil, and you can't add too much if you follow the instruction.
My saw is a generic private label 4X6 (Lobo Tool) from 1997.? The only trouble I've had is when I followed some genius's multi-page procedure for aligning the blade that took a whole day to accomplish - and to tear down when it gave me worse cuts than I was getting before.? Shimming the blade guide parts so that they didn't wobble and were aligned to a machinist's rule then adjusting them per the saw's manual has worked well for me.? I can cut steel bar square when checked with a machinist's square which is more than acceptable for what is in reality a roughing tool.
Kurt Laughlin.
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Sawing 1/8" thick that is much taller than vise jaws - solved
I suspect most of you know this trick, but for the newbies:
Rick
|
Re: Entire head coming down at an angle?
John,
? Thanks so much for the detailed information about how you tested and fixed your saw.??
Jack
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Re: Entire head coming down at an angle?
My Grizzly saw was new in March of 2006. I did
have to replace the motor a couple years ago, but I used to really
work the saw long & hard, and the motor would get awfully
hot.?
Only other things I've had to do, was replace a few of the guide
bearings, and the blade tension knob. The threaded stud was always
a bit to short, and it finally stripped out. I built my own from
leftovers I had. .
No complaints for my saw whatsoever.
Other Bill
On 12/18/2023 8:05 AM, TomDiv wrote:
Ken:
Thanks for the tips...
I am glad to hear that you have demonstrated that this Grizzly has
the potential for a very long life !
-Tom
|
Re: Entire head coming down at an angle?
Hi Jack
I just read back through this thread and see that the procedure I wrote up was never attached to a message, just posted in the files section, so I'll attach a copy to this message for those that have not seen it - jv
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Re: Entire head coming down at an angle?
Ken:
Thanks for the tips...
I am glad to hear that you have demonstrated that this Grizzly has the potential for a very long life !
-Tom
|
Re: Entire head coming down at an angle?
In reference to how much oil should be in the gear box.? DO NOT fill it all the way to the top.? It just needs enough oil to coat the worm shaft which transfers oil to the worm gear. Its okay for the gear teeth to have contact with the oil. My Grizzly 4 x 6 came from the factory filled to the top in oil.? It ran hot all the time, so hot you couldn't touch it. Popped the cover off, Wala! oil gushed out, quickly replaced the cover.? Doesn't run so hot now.? It's about half full of oil.? I don't what the big deal is about using "shock resistance" gear oil. Somebody blowing smoke about this. Regular rear end gear oil should be sufficient.
I've had mine for twenty years now.? I've cut a lot of material on mine, lost count how many blades I've gone through over the years. So far the only replacement parts I've had to buy was a new motor this year.? The dirt dobbers won the battle fighting them from building hives in the motor.? The new motor is a TEFC motor, not a ODP motor originally supplied by Grizzly.? I need to replace the bearings in the guides, just too lazy to do so.?
?
Ken
|
Re: Entire head coming down at an angle?
I have the exact same problem with my JET 7 x 12" saw.? I'm going to try Mark's idea of turning down one end of the hinge pin.
Thanks much,
Jack
Fort Loramie, Ohio
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Re: Entire head coming down at an angle?
I looked at the motor too, and no sign of manufacturing date there either, very odd. 
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John Vreede
davesmith1800
Bill in OKC too
Jim Frame
