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Re: Band saw blade tension
The method I use was posted on rec.crafts.metalworking.? First tou tighten the blade as much as you can with your hand, then you throw a shop rag on the tensioning knob and see how much tighter you can get it.? This method has served me well on my HF unit for many years. - Ed
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Re: [ExternalEmail] Re: [4x6bandsaw] Band saw blade tension
On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 11:04 AM, Jim.Klessig@... wrote:
Thanks for explaining...? sounds realistic |
Re: [ExternalEmail] Re: [4x6bandsaw] Band saw blade tension
Thanks Jim? ?I know wood amd meat bandsaw blades come in a variety of other thicknesses down to at least 0.018" but I believe that 1/2" metal cutting ones are only in 0.025 & 0.035"?? If anyone has a 1/2" wide metal cutting blade that is less than 0.025" I'd be pleased to know - jv
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Re: [ExternalEmail] Re: [4x6bandsaw] Band saw blade tension
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýNo I just picked someone elses thickness they were talking about earlier, as an example for the calculation. ? ?
Senior Power Systems Engineer ? Phone +1 707.497.9611? Jim.Klessig@...? |? Connect with us at ? ? |
Re: Band saw blade tension
Hi guys Jim's calculation is dead correct, except all the blades I use are 0.025" so the weight acting through the saw frame is just that much higher.? Jim, I don't know of any 0.022' thick?blades, but it's?not the first time I've come across someone saying their blades were 0.022".? Can you re-mic your blade and report back because the spoke meter tension calibration would be different for that particular thickness of blade. As far as I knew, the standard 1/2" wide blade thicknesses were only 0.020", 0.025", and 0.035". The 2-clamps-and-digital-calipers method is the basis of an engineering 'strain gauge'. They use it because strain is directly proportional to stress (the psi we talked about) through 'Youngs modulus'? ? ?? ? ? Youngs Modulus = Stress ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Strain so? ? ?Stress = Youngs modulus * Strain Youngs Modulus is pretty much the same for all high tensile steels at 30,000,000psi, (210,000MPa),? and Strain in engineering terms is just '% stretch'. So you can pick a certain length of saw blade, say 4" (100mm), and measure how much it stretches when you tension up the blade. Commercial ones, like the Lenox one pictured, use a very sensitive DTI and ones that are any good cost $350-500US.? You just calibrate the DTI dial in Stress units (psi ) but the DTI just is measuring change in length.???They are preferred by blade manufacturers for setting bandsaw tension because the measurement is independent of all considerations of bandsaw size, even blade thickness! So can be used on the biggest industrial band saw in a saw mill that might be 8" wide x 1/8" thick (1 sq inch cross section) that really does need 15000 lb (3 tons!) tension to get to minimum, all the way down to a 1/8" wide x 0.018"?hobbysaw? blade. HOWEVER the change in length from no tension to full tension is just ~0.002" ! So you have?got to reliably measure at least 10x smaller than?that to be able to discern under- and over-tension. That is way beyond what anyone can do with 2 clamps and a digital caliper.? Even the professional?ones, like the Lenox, are reported in the woodworking press as being really difficult to get reliable measurements from. I can see why; the measurement you are looking for is pretty much the same as the error in the measurement so you get huge % errors. Another thing, that especially?plagues a 4x6 for this instrument, is that at zero tension the blade is not straight so where do you start measuring from? Especially if you're only going to measure a change in length of 0.002"?? I thought about making one from cheap digital calipers, but, when you can get a knock-off Park Tool TM1 and calibrate it for <$20, that will reliably measure what you want,?why bother. Fatigue cracking of a blade is a matter of giving?it enough stress reversals above its?elastic limit.? The blade goes round the wheels and bends too far, according to a graph I've seen from the (now defunct I believe) 'Hack and Bandsaw Manufacturers Association of America'. They reckon that the minimum for 0.025" thick blades is ~12" (~300mm) diameter, so at ~7.5" (190mm) ours are waay under size.? This means, as the band goes around the wheel, the outside stresses up above the tensioning stress in the blade (while the stress on the inside?falls) and then the stress relaxes as it bends straight again .? Stress reversals. The back of the blade is polished, but the gullets are comparatively?rough?from grinding the teeth, so fatigue cracks always start there - jv? ? ?? On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 2:09 AM Mark <mark21056@...> wrote: On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 02:23 AM, John Vreede wrote: |
Re: Band saw blade tension
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýI apologize if this has already been mentioned, I haven¡¯t been following this thread. However in the Apple AppStore is an app called Inkleind Bandsaw Tensioning??that uses the sound of plucking the blade.I have never used it myself. A few years ago, I read a blog post about the development and testing that went into it. Hope this helps, Jeremy On Oct 28, 2021, at 12:55 PM, Mark Kimball <markkimball51@...> wrote:
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Re: Band saw blade tension
Maybe I'm wrong, but the caliper method seems more academic than practical to me -- how many of us have calipers that can accurately measure tenths?? The ones I have can display a "5", i.e., .0005", but I take that with a rather large grain of salt.?
But I COULD see some kind of attachment that uses a .0001" DTI.? It could be two pieces that clamp onto the blade.? The DTI would attach to the end of one and the other would have a flat for the DTI to press against.? Since the range for your typical DTI with this resolution is just a few thousandths, you also might want to implement some kind of fine adjustment to make it easier to set up.? Another approach might be to make a one-piece device with a flexure in the middle -- once you get the DTI set up all you need to do is attach the thing to the blade.? As long as the blade elongation doesn't exceed the flexure's elastic range it should last forever.? I imagine the body of this one might look a bit like a C clamp with a short length of spring steel (old hacksaw blade?) in the middle. Mark |
Re: [ExternalEmail] Re: [4x6bandsaw] Band saw blade tension
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýPSI of the blade cross sectional area.? {Excluding the teeth} For a .022¡± thick blade of ?¡± width is .011 sq inches. ?For 17000 psi that is equivalent to 187 lbs hanging off each side of the blade or 374 lb total. ? ?
Senior Power Systems Engineer ? Phone +1 707.497.9611? Jim.Klessig@...? |? Connect with us at ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Mark
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 6:09 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [ExternalEmail] Re: [4x6bandsaw] Band saw blade tension ? On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 02:23 AM, John Vreede wrote:
John,? Excellent explanation. Thanks I had no idea they made a spoke gauge. "You stated the correct tension is higher than you might think" and I agree. It needs to have a lot of tension. The strength of the blade under straight tension is significant but weakens significantly if deflected and it also fatigues the metal in the blade over time. Of course a deflecting blade doesn't cut as straight either.? So get this...? My HF band saw frame starts to deflect significantly under high tension. In fact this is how I set my tension, I watch for deflection and stop at about 1/8" or a bit less. My first thought is, this deflection could be made into a tension gauge but my second thought is, how in the heck did you ever get enough tension to break blades or shorten blade life. So far I have never had a blade break, at least not after I aligned everything and set it up correctly. I've been running the same blade for 7 month now. I know that's not a good indicator in itself but I can say it has cut a lot of metal and I suspect it will be dull before it ever breaks.? Also 17,000 PSI seems extreme and higher than the saw is capable of. PSI - Pounds per square inch? Square inch of what? Are you saying this force on the blade would be the same as hanging a 17,000 lb weight on the blade? Or maybe half this amount seeing as how you are tensioning two halves of the same blade? Still, even 8500 lb seems extreme. I'm not doubting your information, I'm just looking for clarity.? And thanks for the info. Mark |
Re: Band saw blade tension
On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 07:42 AM, Terry Lund wrote:
I came across the method described in this post awhile ago, but haven't tried it yet myself, but if it works, it's a low cost method to set bandsaw blade tension Now that is cool. In my opinion it's important to have enough tension but also not that critical. I think that there is a wide range of tension that will work well. Still, without any sort of reference it's hard to know if you are in the ball park. You could use this method one time just to get a feel for where the ball park is.? Thanks for the info, Mark |
Re: Band saw blade tension
On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 02:23 AM, John Vreede wrote:
The correct stress is 15000psi min / 20000psi?max for carbon steel blades and 20000psi min / 25000psi max for bimetal blades.. John,? Excellent explanation. Thanks I had no idea they made a spoke gauge. "You stated the correct tension is higher than you might think" and I agree. It needs to have a lot of tension. The strength of the blade under straight tension is significant but weakens significantly if deflected and it also fatigues the metal in the blade over time. Of course a deflecting blade doesn't cut as straight either.? So get this...? My HF band saw frame starts to deflect significantly under high tension. In fact this is how I set my tension, I watch for deflection and stop at about 1/8" or a bit less. My first thought is, this deflection could be made into a tension gauge but my second thought is, how in the heck did you ever get enough tension to break blades or shorten blade life. So far I have never had a blade break, at least not after I aligned everything and set it up correctly. I've been running the same blade for 7 month now. I know that's not a good indicator in itself but I can say it has cut a lot of metal and I suspect it will be dull before it ever breaks.? Also 17,000 PSI seems extreme and higher than the saw is capable of. PSI - Pounds per square inch? Square inch of what? Are you saying this force on the blade would be the same as hanging a 17,000 lb weight on the blade? Or maybe half this amount seeing as how you are tensioning two halves of the same blade? Still, even 8500 lb seems extreme. I'm not doubting your information, I'm just looking for clarity.? And thanks for the info. Mark |
Re: Band saw blade tension
Hi all Tension of the blade IS important.? It's got to be above the minimum, so the blade doesn't buckle under the weight of cutting and below the maximum where it cracks.? The correct stress is 15000psi min / 20000psi?max for carbon steel blades and 20000psi min / 25000psi max for bimetal blades.. The bandwheels on a 4x6 are smaller than the?minimum diameter for 0.025" thick bimetal?blades, so they?should not be run at the blade manufacturers normal?bimetal stress range of 25-30000psi (I did a lot of testing at 27500psi and kept breaking blades even when everything else was correct).? Carbon steel blades are never run that high anyway. I'm a big fan of real measurements where I can trace back to numbers I can be sure of. I've investigated the vibrating string formula Phil Thien uses and I couldn't make it work.? A Fast Fourier Transform app showed the blade produces more of a chord (2 dominant frequencies and the 1st harmonic of each) than a pure tone and I couldn't decide which was the primary frequency to plug into the equation to get the tension.? Phils formula gives a frequency, but I'm not sure it is the?frequency that will give the required stress in the blade so I abandoned it. I've looked at 5 other methods to tension the blade, from strain gauges to hydraulic pressure pots. There is only one that I KNOW gives reproducible and accurate readings of tension on ANY 4x6 bandsaw ever made (actually it's independent of the saw altogether) :??
We really need only the tension at 2 points (mid-point of the carbons steel range and mid-point of the bimetal range), for blades with big gullets (3 & 4TPI)?and for ones with little gullets (6-24TPI) (different cross sectional areas) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Park Tool TM1 Scale Reading ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 17500psi? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 22500psi Blade TPI? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(Carbon steel)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(Bimetal) 3 to 4TPI? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?9? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 11.5 6 to 24TPI? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 10? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?12.5 ?? I calibrated it the same as Park Tool does. The blade was tensioned to those psi stress values with a loadcell spliced into it (load cell calibrated at the local university's Engineering School). Then?the spoke tension meter was clipped on and the values read off the scale. You'll be surprised, the?minimum blade tension is a lot higher than you think.? If you get a ZTTO TC1?you'd calibrate it similarly.? Go to a bicycle shop and ask the mechanic to find a spoke that reads ~11 on his TM1, then clip your TC1 on and screw the spring tension adjusting screw in or out until it reads what the TM1 read.? Mine was significantly over-reading (said the blade was at a lot higher tension than it actually was) and needed 9 turns out on the screw to get the same reading.? The mechanic will tell?you the ZTTO is crap and he's right if you want to do wheel building, as all the spoke tension calibrations?given in the ZTTO's instructions are identical to the TM1, but they don't read the same.? However it's very satisfactory for our use once calibrated this way (but still wouldn't be any good for spokes!) - jv.?? ? On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 12:08 PM David Pidwerbecki <dpidwerbecki@...> wrote: I have been looking into a tool that can test blade tension.? ?I changed my saw blade tensioning so that I had a 3/8" NC stud with a nut and thrust washer for tightening the blade.? ?I would tighten the blade until it ran straight then gave 3/4 turn extra for proper tensioning the blade.? ?Recently, I am stumbling onto a different method which uses your cell phone and a tone prediction tool by J. Phil Thien: |
Re: Band saw blade tension
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I have been looking into a tool that can test blade tension.? ?I changed my saw blade tensioning so that I had a 3/8" NC stud with a nut and thrust washer for tightening the blade.? ?I would tighten the blade until it ran straight then gave 3/4 turn extra for proper tensioning the blade.? ?Recently, I am stumbling onto a different method which uses your cell phone and a tone prediction tool by J. Phil Thien: |
Re: Band saw blade tension
I use a Craftsman 80" bandsaw at a job that is identical to one I own.? I replaced the blade (1/2") about a year ago, and it broke a few weeks ago making a straight cut.? Upon examination, I could see that there had been a crack where it broke, and there were 5-6 other cracks in the blade.? The saws have a scale for tensioning (based on blade width), and this one had been adjusted correctly, but seemed really tight compared to my saw (which has the same adjustment and has never had a broken blade).? When I replaced the blade this time, I used much less tension ("1/4" I think), and the saw has been running great ever since.? Before it broke, the saw had been making clicking noises that became louder and more frequent as time went on.? I searched for a cause a few times, but never saw the cracks. The point here is that over tightening will definitely cause breakage.? I know my 4x6 is sensitive to tension- too little or too much will cause tracking issues. -Dave?
On Wednesday, October 27, 2021, 05:32:59 PM PDT, Bill Armstrong <bill_1955@...> wrote:
I tighten ¡®em. A matter of ¡®feel¡¯ is all. No gizmos or hi-tech stuff, just a ¡®yeah¡..that¡¯s good¡.that¡¯ll do it¡¯. ? And, I just check ¡®em now & again, the same way. ? Other Bill ? ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of David Pidwerbecki
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 4:08 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [4x6bandsaw] Band saw blade tension ? I have been looking into a tool that can test blade tension.? ?I changed my saw blade tensioning so that I had a 3/8" NC stud with a nut and thrust washer for tightening the blade.? ?I would tighten the blade until it ran straight then
gave 3/4 turn extra for proper tensioning the blade.? ?Recently, I am stumbling onto a different method which uses your cell phone and a tone prediction tool by J. Phil Thien: |
Re: Band saw blade tension
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýI tighten ¡®em. A matter of ¡®feel¡¯ is all. No gizmos or hi-tech stuff, just a ¡®yeah¡..that¡¯s good¡.that¡¯ll do it¡¯. ? And, I just check ¡®em now & again, the same way. ? Other Bill ? ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of David Pidwerbecki
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 4:08 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [4x6bandsaw] Band saw blade tension ? I have been looking into a tool that can test blade tension.? ?I changed my saw blade tensioning so that I had a 3/8" NC stud with a nut and thrust washer for tightening the blade.? ?I would tighten the blade until it ran straight then
gave 3/4 turn extra for proper tensioning the blade.? ?Recently, I am stumbling onto a different method which uses your cell phone and a tone prediction tool by J. Phil Thien: |
Re: Band saw blade tension
On 10/27/2021 6:08 PM, David Pidwerbecki wrote:
I have been looking into a tool that can test blade tension.? ?I changed my saw blade tensioning so that I had a 3/8" NC stud with a nut and thrust washer for tightening the blade.? ?I would tighten the blade until it ran straight then gave 3/4 turn extra for proper tensioning the blade.? ?Recently, I am stumbling onto a different method which uses your cell phone and a tone prediction tool by J. Phil Thien:Dood , yer main' this WAY more complicated than it needs to be . -- Snag Race only matters to racists ... |
Band saw blade tension
David Pidwerbecki
I have been looking into a tool that can test blade tension.? ?I changed my saw blade tensioning so that I had a 3/8" NC stud with a nut and thrust washer for tightening the blade.? ?I would tighten the blade until it ran straight then gave 3/4 turn extra for proper tensioning the blade.? ?Recently, I am stumbling onto a different method which uses your cell phone and a tone prediction tool by J. Phil Thien:
For my saw, I calculated that the blade tension should make a tone that is between 97 to 107 Hz. I talked to a guy who builds bicycle wheels.? He is using a cell phone app to determine the tone of a plucked spoke (apparently, this is the new "way" to determine spoke tension).? ?The app is called:? "Gates Carbon Drive" and is found in the Apple Apps store (and I imagine the Google Play Apps store as well).? ?I downloaded the app and reset my blade tension so it is right in the middle of the range as predicted by J. P. Thien. How do all of you set your blade tension?? ?I certainly don't want to purchase a blade tensioning tool that costs more than the bandsaw. |
Re: Comments on Grizzly MODEL G0926 4" X 51?2" VARIABLE-SPEED BANDSAW?
Hi Paul See attached doc - jv On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 5:27 AM Paul Loyd <paulus.loyd@...> wrote: I'm looking for comments pro or con about the Grizzly?MODEL G0926 4" X 51?2" VARIABLE-SPEED METAL-CUTTING BANDSAW |