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Re: gear box on a Dayton

 

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John: Another invaluable piece of info.

“A fraught subject”.

This made me laugh.
In another era, I subscribed to three vintage VW lists: bus, Ghia, Beetle - because I owned and worked on all three.
A recurrent thread on all three was what oil to use in the air cooled engines.
Like clockwork, once a year or so, a raging argument would ensue, die out without consensus, and then reappear.

On another note, encouraged by your previous note, I did extract the lid from the gear box.As you said, the gasket had grown mushy and sticky.
And also, as you said, that fifth hole was certainly just a convenient opening to inject lube without pulling the cover.

And finally, I’ll live with the misaligned pulleys for a while.

Again, many thanks for your contributions.

On Mar 24, 2025, at 3:48?PM, John Vreede via groups.io <vreededesign@...> wrote:

Yeah thats a fair bit of misalignmentand probably due to the motor not being in the right place on its mount. The holes are generally pretty oversize so you can move the motor around a bit.? Maybe the mount is the wrong way rounud???? More annoying than a real problem though IMO.
Oil is a fraught subject.? In reality ANY modern (last 15years) 140 weight GEAR oil will be more than adequate. So thats SAE140, ISO VG460 or AGMA 7(comp) & 7EP.? High friction worm gear sets require high viscosity oil - never use motor oil. (that said motor oil is still better than no oil!)
I tested a whole lot of oils and tested to see how long it took in repetative cutting for the gearbox to hit 150degF, the best one was 75W-250 Red Line Heavy Shockproof which took 3x longer to reach that temp than the worst one.?
The arguments arise around corrosion of brass? (synchromesh pads in manual car transmissions).? GL4 oils are the 'yellow metal safe' and contain about half the level of Extreme Pressure (EP) additives than the current highest level gear oil package , GL5. The old EP additives broke down in the gearbox to acid (which eats the zinc in the brass) but modern ones are 'buffered' which is a chemistry term for maintaining the pH level (acidity) they started with so don't corrode brass anymore.? Besides gear oils in cars normally work at around 200F. and our bandsaws rarely get above 100F.? I left some polished brass in GL5 75-140 Lucas gear oil @ 100F on top of my hotwater cylinder for well over a year and the bit sticking out in the air was more tarnished than the bit it the oil which was still polished.? Modern GL5 gear oils are no problem in a 4x6 (but Id still use GL4 in a manual car transmission) . - jv
Re: gear box on a Dayton

 

Yeah thats a fair bit of misalignmentand probably due to the motor not being in the right place on its mount. The holes are generally pretty oversize so you can move the motor around a bit.? Maybe the mount is the wrong way rounud???? More annoying than a real problem though IMO.
Oil is a fraught subject.? In reality ANY modern (last 15years) 140 weight GEAR oil will be more than adequate. So thats SAE140, ISO VG460 or AGMA 7(comp) & 7EP.? High friction worm gear sets require high viscosity oil - never use motor oil. (that said motor oil is still better than no oil!)
I tested a whole lot of oils and tested to see how long it took in repetative cutting for the gearbox to hit 150degF, the best one was 75W-250 Red Line Heavy Shockproof which took 3x longer to reach that temp than the worst one.?
The arguments arise around corrosion of brass? (synchromesh pads in manual car transmissions).? GL4 oils are the 'yellow metal safe' and contain about half the level of Extreme Pressure (EP) additives than the current highest level gear oil package , GL5. The old EP additives broke down in the gearbox to acid (which eats the zinc in the brass) but modern ones are 'buffered' which is a chemistry term for maintaining the pH level (acidity) they started with so don't corrode brass anymore.? Besides gear oils in cars normally work at around 200F. and our bandsaws rarely get above 100F.? I left some polished brass in GL5 75-140 Lucas gear oil @ 100F on top of my hotwater cylinder for well over a year and the bit sticking out in the air was more tarnished than the bit it the oil which was still polished.? Modern GL5 gear oils are no problem in a 4x6 (but Id still use GL4 in a manual car transmission) . - jv
Re: gear box on a Dayton

 

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Possibly it's not the original motor?
I replaced the motor with one made in USA on my Grizzly 5x6, and had to modify the mount a bit to get the pulleys aligned.

I don't know why a Dayton would use any gearbox oil different that all the other 4x6 & 5x6 band saws out there. They seem to be a bunch of clones.
I use Redline 75w/140NS transmission oil. It's GL5, but it's compatible with yellow metals, and has been in my saw for 19 years. The brand is not important, it just happened Redline was available at the local auto parts store, but being compatible with bronze or brass is, (I assume a Dayton has broze gears like the others) so what ever gear oil you get make sure it's good with yellow metals. Verify that.
As far as viscosity, I think the multi-grades are the way to go, like the 75w/140 or a 85w/140.

Other Bill


On 3/24/2025 9:55 AM, Jack Dinan wrote:
Me again.
With the motor pulley as far out on the motor shaft as possible, here is the misalignment with the pulley on the gear box shaft. What to make of this?
Also is there a concensus on what lube to use in the gear box?


Virus-free.
Re: gear box on a Dayton

 

Me again.
With the motor pulley as far out on the motor shaft as possible, here is the misalignment with the pulley on the gear box shaft. What to make of this?
Also is there a concensus on what lube to use in the gear box?
Re: gear box on a Dayton

 

If it's never been off it's probably staying put cause the gasket
sealers & gasket material was much better quality when yer saw was made
. Have ya taken that saw # over to Graingers site to see about gettin
the manual for it . years back I was working on a 30 + year old
Speed-Air compressor? & I gave them a call & gave the gal my part # & in
@ 30 minutes I had the manual in my email . There may even be a manual
for that saw in the files section here . If yers has a brass / Bronze
gear make sure ya get new oil that is rated for safe use with
brass/bronze gears .

good luck

animal

On 3/23/25 11:11 AM, Jack Dinan wrote:
Vintage Dayton saw.



I?�?d like to inspect the lube in the gear box but cannot get the cover off.



Removing the screws at the corners allows the cover to lift off a few mm, but not all the way.

What is holding the cover on?
What is the function of the screw at the tip of the red arrow/

phd
Re: gear box on a Dayton

 

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This is exceedingly helpful.
Many thanks.
I’ll try tomorrow.


On Mar 23, 2025, at 6:48?PM, John Vreede via groups.io <vreededesign@...> wrote:

Hi Jack
I'd be more confident of what the arrowed screw is, than what's holding the cover on but here goes:
1. I'm pretty sure that the arrowed screw is the fill/level screw.? If you fill oil through?that hole when the saw is vertical and let it drain when the saw is horizontal then you'll 3/4-fill the gearbox, which is good. It'll have enough air in the gearbox so it won't overpressurize?if the gearbox gets hot when running for extended periods and blow oil past the seals but have more than enough to lube the gears.??

2. Normally the gearboxes have a neoprene seal between the cover and the cast iron.? These get gooey from prolonged exposure to oil and stick the cover to gearbox housing.? Sometimes a blow to the edge of the cover from a hammer and soft metal drift will dislodge them but it has to be a pretty heavy blow since the seal can stretch so much.??
Looks like your belt cover hinge is mounted to an angle bracket also taken down by the upper two gearbox cover screws in the photo, so you'd have to remove the hinge and belt cover too, to get the gearbox cover off.
Those neoprene seals are a pita.? I clean off the cover and gearbox casting edges with acetone and use RTV silicone to seal them.? (brown CRC stuff in the photo)
If you damage the cover, no problem just make one out of 3/8" thick clear plastic per photo - jv

On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 7:11?AM Jack Dinan via <jack=[email protected]> wrote:
Vintage Dayton saw.



I?�?d like to inspect the lube in the gear box but cannot get the cover off.



Removing the screws at the corners allows the cover to lift off a few mm, but not all the way.

What is holding the cover on?
What is the function of the screw at the tip of the red arrow/

phd





<Gearbox cover & filler plugs.jpg>
Re: gear box on a Dayton

 

Hi Jack
I'd be more confident of what the arrowed screw is, than what's holding the cover on but here goes:
1. I'm pretty sure that the arrowed screw is the fill/level screw.? If you fill oil through?that hole when the saw is vertical and let it drain when the saw is horizontal then you'll 3/4-fill the gearbox, which is good. It'll have enough air in the gearbox so it won't overpressurize?if the gearbox gets hot when running for extended periods and blow oil past the seals but have more than enough to lube the gears.??

2. Normally the gearboxes have a neoprene seal between the cover and the cast iron.? These get gooey from prolonged exposure to oil and stick the cover to gearbox housing.? Sometimes a blow to the edge of the cover from a hammer and soft metal drift will dislodge them but it has to be a pretty heavy blow since the seal can stretch so much.??
Looks like your belt cover hinge is mounted to an angle bracket also taken down by the upper two gearbox cover screws in the photo, so you'd have to remove the hinge and belt cover too, to get the gearbox cover off.
Those neoprene seals are a pita.? I clean off the cover and gearbox casting edges with acetone and use RTV silicone to seal them.? (brown CRC stuff in the photo)
If you damage the cover, no problem just make one out of 3/8" thick clear plastic per photo - jv

On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 7:11?AM Jack Dinan via <jack=[email protected]> wrote:
Vintage Dayton saw.



I?�?d like to inspect the lube in the gear box but cannot get the cover off.



Removing the screws at the corners allows the cover to lift off a few mm, but not all the way.

What is holding the cover on?
What is the function of the screw at the tip of the red arrow/

phd





Gearbox cover & filler plugs.jpg

gear box on a Dayton

 

Vintage Dayton saw.



I’d like to inspect the lube in the gear box but cannot get the cover off.



Removing the screws at the corners allows the cover to lift off a few mm, but not all the way.

What is holding the cover on?
What is the function of the screw at the tip of the red arrow/

phd

IMG_9238.jpeg
IMG_9237.jpeg

Re: reinstall the tension spring

 

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Excellent!
+1


On 3/14/2025 5:42 PM, John Vreede via groups.io wrote:

Ahh.... some do and some don't.? That only works if the adjustment screw is long enough for the spring to go slack.? If it too short, like this yr2000 RF128,
you need to lengthen the spring somehow.
This is how I did? it:?
Get 20-30 small washers (~1/4" internal diameter or less)
Put the spring vertically in a vice
Bend the spring and insert the washers into the gaps that open up, some on one side, then bend the other way, so the spring remains more or less straight
Put enough washers in so that you can get at least 2-3 turns of the handle onto the screw
The washers all fall out the first time the spring is stretched - jv?
?
Re: reinstall the tension spring

 

Nice to know.
?
I own three 4x6 and never had to remove tension spring. Each one had upgrades from last .?
?
I will keep this one in mind if ever need to replace the spring.?
?
Dave?
?
On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 02:42 PM, John Vreede wrote:

Ahh.... some do and some don't.? That only works if the adjustment screw is long enough for the spring to go slack.? If it too short, like this yr2000 RF128,
you need to lengthen the spring somehow.
This is how I did? it:?
Get 20-30 small washers (~1/4" internal diameter or less)
Put the spring vertically in a vice
Bend the spring and insert the washers into the gaps that open up, some on one side, then bend the other way, so the spring remains more or less straight
Put enough washers in so that you can get at least 2-3 turns of the handle onto the screw
The washers all fall out the first time the spring is stretched - jv?
?
Re: reinstall the tension spring

 

On 3/14/25 14:42, John Vreede via groups.io wrote:
Bend the spring and insert the washers into the gaps
+1
I do that all the time with centerstand springs on motorcycles.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Re: reinstall the tension spring

 

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Brilliant idea John, love it, I wouldn't have thought of using spacers like that.

On 15/03/25 10:42, John Vreede via groups.io wrote:

Ahh.... some do and some don't.? That only works if the adjustment screw is long enough for the spring to go slack.? If it too short, like this yr2000 RF128,
you need to lengthen the spring somehow.
This is how I did? it:?
Get 20-30 small washers (~1/4" internal diameter or less)
Put the spring vertically in a vice
Bend the spring and insert the washers into the gaps that open up, some on one side, then bend the other way, so the spring remains more or less straight
Put enough washers in so that you can get at least 2-3 turns of the handle onto the screw
The washers all fall out the first time the spring is stretched - jv?
?
Re: reinstall the tension spring

 

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Brake spring pliers work well too.?

IMG_1095

On Mar 14, 2025, at 2:42?PM, John Vreede via groups.io <vreededesign@...> wrote:

?
Ahh.... some do and some don't.? That only works if the adjustment screw is long enough for the spring to go slack.? If it too short, like this yr2000 RF128,
you need to lengthen the spring somehow.
<inline.0.part>
This is how I did? it:?
Get 20-30 small washers (~1/4" internal diameter or less)
Put the spring vertically in a vice
Bend the spring and insert the washers into the gaps that open up, some on one side, then bend the other way, so the spring remains more or less straight
Put enough washers in so that you can get at least 2-3 turns of the handle onto the screw
The washers all fall out the first time the spring is stretched - jv?
?

inline.0.part

Re: reinstall the tension spring

 

Ahh.... some do and some don't.? That only works if the adjustment screw is long enough for the spring to go slack.? If it too short, like this yr2000 RF128,
you need to lengthen the spring somehow.
This is how I did? it:?
Get 20-30 small washers (~1/4" internal diameter or less)
Put the spring vertically in a vice
Bend the spring and insert the washers into the gaps that open up, some on one side, then bend the other way, so the spring remains more or less straight
Put enough washers in so that you can get at least 2-3 turns of the handle onto the screw
The washers all fall out the first time the spring is stretched - jv?
?
Re: reinstall the tension spring

 

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Thanks, but on my ancient Dayton version, the bolt was not long enough.

I ground a flat on the other bolt that captures the end of the spring.
this allowed a flat head screwdriver to rest there and slide the spring on.


On Mar 14, 2025, at 1:41?PM, John H via groups.io <johnjhayden@...> wrote:

Lift the arm all the way and it’ll go right back on easily?




On Friday, March 14, 2025, 1:33 PM, Jack Dinan <jack@...> wrote:

I removed the tension spring to allow me to adjust the swing arm.
?
Any suggestions on how to reinstall that beast?
?
?
Re: reinstall the tension spring

 

Lift the arm all the way and it’ll go right back on easily?




On Friday, March 14, 2025, 1:33 PM, Jack Dinan <jack@...> wrote:

I removed the tension spring to allow me to adjust the swing arm.
?
Any suggestions on how to reinstall that beast?
?
?
reinstall the tension spring

 

I removed the tension spring to allow me to adjust the swing arm.
?
Any suggestions on how to reinstall that beast?
?
?
Re: probably done to death... but going to ask anyway. blade popping off.

 

On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 04:34 AM, David Weir wrote:
That pivot bracket is priceless, I have my 6X4 cutting a slither like a penny, after doing all sorts of modifications, and copying your baseplate idea.

I assume you mean the plate to go under the vise. Thanks, it makes a huge difference if you saw has the same defect as mine.?
Re: probably done to death... but going to ask anyway. blade popping off.

 
Edited

Mark, That pivot bracket is priceless, I have my 6X4 cutting a slither like a penny, after doing all sorts of modifications, and copying your baseplate idea.
Love Your Youtube.......just keep on doing what you enjoy. Regards Beagles.
Re: Is Hydraulic feed really a good idea?

 

On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 06:50 PM, John Vreede wrote:
Your hydrauic downfeed has no effect on the derailing of the blade, that's from some other fault. Hydraulic downfeed gives a much more stable cutting action which makes the blade is less likely to derail if anything.

John, you have a gift. I understand the saw but putting it into words and explaining it so that others can understand is another story. Joe Pi (on youtube) has this gift. I do okay, but certainly not as well as you!?

My saw was set up as you described at the end. The pivot point on my saw was drilled 1/4" too high. When the blade guide were set correctly, the end of the head hit the saw base before it completed the cut. Unless of course, the blade guides were pushing the blade down. The saw was set up to compensate for this defect when I got it and I destroyed 3 blades before I realized what the problem was. I ended up putting a 1/4" steel plate under the vise to resolve the issue.?

I ended up making these available. The one I have on my saw I made on the mill but I had a bunch laser cut. Judging by how many I have sold I'm guessing a bunch of Harbor Freight saws were made the same as mine.? The guy that laser cut this batch had a problem with the laser. The edges are rough so he gave me a good deal. If anyone needs a plate like this send me a massage and I'll sell you one fairly cheap.?

Mark
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