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I had a question for anyone who's got experience with both the CS-80
and the MIDIBoard. For me, the best part of the CS-80 is the
keyboard: the feel, the velocity sensing and the pressure sensing.
I love how the pressure has the rubber bits under the keys that
squish down about 1/16" or more as you press harder.

I used to have a Roland A-80, which I got mostly because it had poly-
pressure. I still think the A-80 had about the best piano action
I've ever played, but the pressure sensing was horrible. The
problem (besides the senstivity, which could mostly be fixed) was
that the keys didn't move any after the initial bottoming out.
There was zero physical feedback, unlike the Yamaha. I had the same
problem with an Ensoniq SQ-80 (actually, I hated everything about
the keyboard on it).

So, what about the MIDIBoard? I haven't seen one in many years and
don't remember the feel. How does it compare to the CS-80? Even
better - anyone using one to control the CS80v program? Does it
respond like the real thing? They pop up on eBay once in a while,
so I'm wondering if one would be worth going after.

Any other poly-pressure keyboards to report on (Prophet T8, GEM
S2/3)?

David

--- In yamahacs80@..., "David Rogoff" <david@t...> wrote:

... I had the same
problem with an Ensoniq SQ-80 (actually, I hated everything about
the keyboard on it).

The SQ-80 keyboard is wretched. I have tried to use the aftertouch on it after getting
hooked on the effect on the 80, only to find it miserable and painful to play.

Any other poly-pressure keyboards to report on (Prophet T8, GEM
S2/3)?

My understanding is that many manufacturers don't bother to implement poly aftertouch
because frankly MIDI doesn't have the bandwidth to support the amount of data that it
generates. The fact that all the aftertouch effects in the 80 are under voltage control is the
critical difference. Squeezing all that data into 1 midi cable makes the timing sloppy and
the aftertouch controllers less than smooth. Mostly you hear parameters jumping around,
rather than gliding around.

Max

--- In yamahacs80@..., marzzz@a... wrote:

In a message dated 9/30/04 10:06:37 PM, david@t... writes:

So, what about the MIDIBoard? I haven't seen one in many years and
don't remember the feel. How does it compare to the CS-80? Even
better - anyone using one to control the CS80v program? Does it
respond like the real thing? They pop up on eBay once in a while,
so I'm wondering if one would be worth going after.

How best to put this? F#%@^%@ing YES!!!!! Now that I have secured

mine, I can

let out the secret: Short of actually owning a mint CS-80, the Kurz

MidiBoard

is simply the absolutely best implementation of controlling Poly AT

ever

made. The piano touch is good- not quite as good as an A-80 (which I

feel was one

of the best, even better than many boards that came after it) but the
MidiBoard has that same spongy "give" that makes it easy to control

Poly AT, even if

you are using your 5th digit to bring out one note.

The only caveat is that the MidiBoard was made for a number of

years- there

were three OS revisions, and you DEFINITELY want the latest, 3.0; It

is nearly

impossible to update early versions. In addition, the actual keyboard
mechanism was changed late in its run, to a "Suzuki" piano action

which was a vast

improvement over the original. I can give you more details privately

if you want.

I am using it to control the CS-80V (as well as various softsynths,

and a

PolyEvolver) and to say I love it is an understatement! The CS-80V

does a

"decent" job of emulating a real CS-80, but of course it pales in

direct comparison.

Still, it is good enough for me.....the MidiBoard does an excellent

job of

interacting with the CS-80V software to really make it respond to

playing

technique. The only major bummer is that the virtual ribbon

(controlled by pitch

wheel in the software) does not drive the oscillators down to zero

like the real

thing. It has been suggested to fix this in the next software revision.

Marshall,

thanks for the great info! Any idea on serial number ranges for the
later MIDIBoards with the Suzuki action? Also, regarding CS80V not
getting the ribbon right: I complained about that when it first came
out. I just asked Xavier again, and he said that version 1.2 has a
linear option for the ribbon!!! I haven't been able to try it since
the demo version is still at 1.1. If you're a registered owner,
please give it a try and report. Here's the info he sent me:

Here are the link for the version 1.2 of the CS-80V. The ribbon
controller has been updated : you can select the position "cs >linear".
In that way, the ribbon modulate teh frequency in linear, as the
original. The first clic of the mouse set the zero point. This zero
point is updated to the middle after a while. In that way, the
keybord pitch bend still works correctly.

ftp://test_area@.../cs80v_1.2_test/cs80v_1_2.sit

ftp://test_area@.../cs80v_1.2_test/CS-80V_1.2_win_setup.exe

Pass word if needed: berlioz

David

On Fri, Oct 01, 2004 at 02:19:32PM -0400, marzzz@... wrote:

Actually, many manufacturers don't implement PolyAT because of: 1) the cost-
you need separate sensors for each key; 2) Ensoniq (?) has a patent regarding
PolyAT that they refuse to license;

My understanding is that that's not quite true. Ensoniq has (or had; it
may have expired by now) a patent that covers most *cheap* ways one might
implement poly AT. Thus only the expensive options are left.

--
David Evans dfevans@...
Research Associate, Ph.D. Candidate
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

--- In yamahacs80@..., David Evans <dfevans@b...> wrote:

On Fri, Oct 01, 2004 at 02:19:32PM -0400, marzzz@a... wrote:

Actually, many manufacturers don't implement PolyAT because of: 1)

the cost-

you need separate sensors for each key; 2) Ensoniq (?) has a

patent regarding

PolyAT that they refuse to license;

My understanding is that that's not quite true. Ensoniq has (or

had; it

may have expired by now) a patent that covers most *cheap* ways one

might

implement poly AT. Thus only the expensive options are left.

I've read this too. Does anyone know the patent number? I just
searched on for
Ensoniq and found 38 patents, none related to this. Patent 05376752
describe a synthesizer and mentions aftertouch, but it's so
vague that I can't tell if this is the one (I don't even understand
half of what my patents say, after the patent attornies got done with
them).

What is in the CS-80's sensors? I know it's a rubber cushion and,
according to the schematics, electronically it acts like a
potentiometer, outputing a voltage proportional to the pressure, but I
don't know what's going on inside it. Are there (widely, cheaply)
available force sensors that could be used to add pressure sensing to
an existing keyboard (if you could figure out where to mount them)?

David


David

They are "force-sensing resistors" which are sold in a variety of
configurations these days. I'll have to find out if any are suitable as
aftertouch sensors.

Crow
/**/

On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, David Rogoff wrote:

What is in the CS-80's sensors? I know it's a rubber cushion and,
according to the schematics, electronically it acts like a
potentiometer, outputing a voltage proportional to the pressure, but I
don't know what's going on inside it. Are there (widely, cheaply)
available force sensors that could be used to add pressure sensing to
an existing keyboard (if you could figure out where to mount them)?

--- In yamahacs80@..., The Old Crow <oldcrow@o...> wrote:

They are "force-sensing resistors" which are sold in a variety of
configurations these days. I'll have to find out if any are

suitable as

aftertouch sensors.

Scott,

Thanks for the info. I looked up some of these on google. They all
have various voltage vs. pressure responses which made me wonder how
the CS-80's sensors responded. So, I decided to do a little
experiment. After trying various ideas involved postage scales and
bath scales, I thought of using a 2-liter coke bottle (actually diet
root beer) as a weight. I soldered a wire to the pressure sensor
output of a key (see pic cs80_pressure.jpg in Files page). I placed
the bottle, upside-down, at the front edge of a white key. I kept
adding more water and recording the voltage.

The results are in the files pressure_vs_voltage.xls and
aftertouch_response.jpg in the Files page. It's a kind of log
response, toping out with a little under 7 volts for any force over 70
oz (about 2Kg). The response is a little weird: it would stay the
same for several ounces and then jump. I'm not sure why it did this.
Maybe it's stiffness in the rubber piece over the sensor.

I also ran the output to an oscilloscope and looked at the curve as a
I pressed down on the key (sorry - no picture). It definitely looked
smooth and continuous, without the steps I had recorded. Any ideas?

Anyway, this is way more than most people want to know, but it could
be useful if someone was trying to build a new keyboard, or looking to
replace broken sensors on a CS-80.

David

--- In yamahacs80@..., "David Rogoff" <david@t...> wrote:

The results are in the files pressure_vs_voltage.xls and
aftertouch_response.jpg in the Files page. It's a kind of log
response, toping out with a little under 7 volts for any force over

70

oz (about 2Kg). The response is a little weird: it would stay the
same for several ounces and then jump. I'm not sure why it did

this.

Maybe it's stiffness in the rubber piece over the sensor.

Well, I looked inside the sensors (see "sensor guts.jpg" in the Files
page), and it makes more sense. Each sensor has a divider chain of
resistors with 9 taps that come out under the (conductive) rubber
pad. You can see the rubber pad on the left is on its side, showing
the angle on the underside. As you press the key harder, the pad
makes contact with more of the taps, pulling off higher voltages.
This explains the jumps I measured.

Scott, do you know if most FSRs work like this?

David

Hm, very interesting. So it is a discrete array of printed thick-film
resistors and a 9-tap conductive switch with 'rolling' contacts.

This is not how most modern FSRs work; those use a sandwich of two
contact layers and a resistive layer. The more pressure applied, the
better (lower) the resistance gets. Yamaha's design is very interesting,
though if those rubber buttons start to dry-rot new ones might be tough to
obtain. New ones could be made (the circuit board part is almost easy) by
an injection-molding neoprene plastics place.

What values of resistance are measured for each tap?

Scott
/**/

--- In yamahacs80@..., marzzz@... wrote:

In a message dated 9/30/04 10:06:37 PM, david@... writes:

I had a question for anyone who's got experience with both the CS-80
and the MIDIBoard.? For me, the best part of the CS-80 is the
keyboard: the feel, the velocity sensing and the pressure sensing.?

How best to put this? F#%@^%@ing YES!!!!! Now that I have secured

mine, I can

let out the secret: Short of actually owning a mint CS-80, the Kurz

MidiBoard

is simply the absolutely best implementation of controlling Poly AT

ever

made. The piano touch is good- not quite as good as an A-80 (which I

feel was one

of the best, even better than many boards that came after it) but the
MidiBoard has that same spongy "give" that makes it easy to control

Poly AT, even if

you are using your 5th digit to bring out one note.

The only caveat is that the MidiBoard was made for a number of

years- there

were three OS revisions, and you DEFINITELY want the latest, 3.0; It

is nearly

impossible to update early versions.

Looking for some more MIDIBoard knowledge. I just picked up another
one last night. It's in very nice condition - a few small scratches.
It's very nice driving the CS80 I just added the Kenton MIDI kit to!

It appears to have OS version 2.2 since it has 46 parameters. I wonder
if anyone knows about the extra parameters. It came with the owners'
manual, but it's the same one that my old OS 1 MIDIBoard came with,
which only lists 42 parameters. The extra parameters are:

43 After Pressure Mode 0-1
44 Pitch Wheel Mode 0-1(seems to switch direction of wheel)
45 Velocity Map 1-4
46 Pressure Map 1-2

Any ideas?

Thanks,

David

ftp://ftp.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/pub/Kurzweil/Pro_Products/Other_Pro_Products/Midiboard/MidiboardMG.pdf

This is the ver. 3 manual, documenting all 48 parameters.

oasysfan2 wrote:

ftp://ftp.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/pub/Kurzweil/Pro_Products/Other_Pro_Products/Midiboard/MidiboardMG.pdf

This is the ver. 3 manual, documenting all 48 parameters.

Thanks! It helps with two out of the three. The catch is that all the parameter were re-ordered for v3. I found the Velocity Map and Pressure Map, which I assume are the same:

Velocity Map: 1-4 (1 is default)
1 - linear
2 - curved map emphasize low velocities - designed to work with K250
3 - doubly-curved map, emphasizes high and low velocity
4 - small range map to deal with DX-7 screwed up response

Pressure Map - 1-2 (1 is default)
1 - "normal"
2 - requires more pressure to kick in, but less for max value

I can't find anything about After Pressure Mode. Any ideas? I guess I'll hook up a MIDI monitor and see if I can figure it out.

By the way, is there any way to get hold of a v3 upgrade? Is it just a ROM replacement? Anyone able to burn copies of the PROMs?

Thanks,

David

Looking for some more MIDIBoard knowledge. I just picked up another
one last night. It's in very nice condition - a few small scratches.
It's very nice driving the CS80 I just added the Kenton MIDI kit to!
It appears to have OS version 2.2 since it has 46 parameters. I wonder
if anyone knows about the extra parameters. It came with the owners'
manual, but it's the same one that my old OS 1 MIDIBoard came with,
which only lists 42 parameters. The extra parameters are:
43 After Pressure Mode 0-1
44 Pitch Wheel Mode 0-1(seems to switch direction of wheel)
45 Velocity Map 1-4
46 Pressure Map 1-2

(sorry if this is a duplicate, but my email company was dead for a couple of hours this morning)


oasysfan2 wrote:

ftp://ftp.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/pub/Kurzweil/Pro_Products/Other_Pro_Products/Midiboard/MidiboardMG.pdf

This is the ver. 3 manual, documenting all 48 parameters.

Thanks! It helps with two out of the three. The catch is that all the
parameter were re-ordered for v3. I found the Velocity Map and Pressure
Map, which I assume are the same:

Velocity Map: 1-4 (1 is default)
1 - linear
2 - curved map emphasize low velocities - designed to work with K250
3 - doubly-curved map, emphasizes high and low velocity
4 - small range map to deal with DX-7 screwed up response

Pressure Map - 1-2 (1 is default)
1 - "normal"
2 - requires more pressure to kick in, but less for max value

I can't find anything about After Pressure Mode. Any ideas? I guess
I'll hook up a MIDI monitor and see if I can figure it out.

By the way, is there any way to get hold of a v3 upgrade? Is it just a
ROM replacement? Anyone able to burn copies of the PROMs?

Thanks,

David

Looking for some more MIDIBoard knowledge. I just picked up another
one last night. It's in very nice condition - a few small scratches.
It's very nice driving the CS80 I just added the Kenton MIDI kit to!
It appears to have OS version 2.2 since it has 46 parameters. I wonder
if anyone knows about the extra parameters. It came with the owners'
manual, but it's the same one that my old OS 1 MIDIBoard came with,
which only lists 42 parameters. The extra parameters are:
43 After Pressure Mode 0-1
44 Pitch Wheel Mode 0-1(seems to switch direction of wheel)
45 Velocity Map 1-4
46 Pressure Map 1-2