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Why no Xpander mod. matrix implementation?

 

I was wondering why the M12 mod. matrix was never retroactively implemented in the Xpander? It's all software, so it seems like an update would've been easy. (And "Name" is just so lonely in the Misc page:)).
 

It's not just a matter of FW, you need another display


On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 8:18 PM, vrazomatt <vrazomatt@...> wrote:
?

I was wondering why the M12 mod. matrix was never retroactively implemented in the Xpander? It's all software, so it seems like an update would've been easy. (And "Name" is just so lonely in the Misc page:)).
 

What do you mean? They both have the same displays.

--- In xpantastic@..., Tony Cappellini <cappy2112@...> wrote:

It's not just a matter of FW, you need another display

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 8:18 PM, vrazomatt <vrazomatt@...> wrote:

**


I was wondering why the M12 mod. matrix was never retroactively implemented
in the Xpander? It's all software, so it seems like an update would've been
easy. (And "Name" is just so lonely in the Misc page:)).
 

Never mind. I thought the M12 has an extra display ;-)
In that case- you've got a good point. I wonder why they didn't make a FW update for the Xpander.

Sounds like a job for Neil Bradley.

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:26 PM, vrazomatt <vrazomatt@...> wrote:
?

What do you mean? They both have the same displays.



--- In xpantastic@..., Tony Cappellini wrote:
>
> It's not just a matter of FW, you need another display
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 8:18 PM, vrazomatt wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > I was wondering why the M12 mod. matrix was never retroactively implemented
> > in the Xpander? It's all software, so it seems like an update would've been
> > easy. (And "Name" is just so lonely in the Misc page:)).
> >
> >
> >
>
 

The only difference in the front panel is an extra button and led to toggle
between the

voices 1-6 and 7-12. ?So thinking about just adding the firmware from an M12 and
then switching off

the unavailable voices sounds plausible at first, but:
The Xpander has CV ins, which the matrix 12 lacks. So if?even if someone copied
the ROMs from an M12

and?was successful in getting?it to work in an Xpander.?you would still lose the
code to control the?CV inputs.

As Tony suggests it would have to be a custom rewrite.

Best Regards

Karl



________________________________
From: vrazomatt <vrazomatt@...>
To: xpantastic@...
Sent: Wed, August 3, 2011 10:18:58 PM
Subject: [xpantastic] Why no Xpander mod. matrix implementation?

?
I was wondering why the M12 mod. matrix was never retroactively implemented in
the Xpander? It's all software, so it seems like an update would've been easy.
(And "Name" is just so lonely in the Misc page:)).
 

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And that?s why I bookmark your post and now wait for your Xpander OS upgrade upload within 3days.


Am 04.08.2011 05:18, schrieb vrazomatt:

?

?It's all software, so it seems like an update would've been easy.



 

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Hi Karl !

That is !

best

PeWe


Am 04.08.2011 08:59, schrieb Karl Schmeer:

?

So if?even if someone copied
the ROMs from an M12 and?was successful in getting?it to work in an Xpander.?you would still lose the
code to control the?CV inputs.


Best Regards

Karl
 



>>and?was successful in getting?it to work in an Xpander.?you would still lose the
>>code to control the?CV inputs.
 


>>and?was successful in getting?it to work in an Xpander.?you would still lose the
>>code to control the?CV inputs.

?

Surely, this could be an option given to the user.

A certain key combination at power on would decide if the user wants CV inputs or Matrix Mod display. Additionally,
a dedicated button press would be needed to enable the Matrix Mod display, but this is easily done. There are many mod sources I don't use so I would gladly sacrifice on of those buttons.

I would easily give up the CV inputs for the Matrix Mod display?
 

Karl,

I presume you are talking about the 6 cv/gate inputs (not the CV pedal inputs, which I assume the M12 has as well)? If so, there is no direct CV-as-mod-source ability now, so I'm not sure why this would have to be addressed in the mod-matrix?

From my understanding, the mod matrix is just a compendium of all mod routings, addressed though the already existing "misc" page, so no additional coding would be necessary.

Anyways, I guess this is all just academic unless someone feels like writing something up!:)


Am 04.08.2011 08:59, schrieb Karl Schmeer:

So if even if someone copied
the ROMs from an M12 and was successful in getting it to work in an
Xpander. you would still lose the
code to control the CV inputs.


Best Regards

Karl
 

Right back at ya :-)

Karl


________________________________
From: PeWe <ha-pewe@...>
To: xpantastic@...
Sent: Thu, August 4, 2011 3:05:24 AM
Subject: Re: [xpantastic] Why no Xpander mod. matrix implementation?

?

Hi Karl !

That is !

best

PeWe


Am 04.08.2011 08:59, schrieb Karl Schmeer:
?
So if?even if someone copied
the ROMs from an M12 and?was successful in getting?it to work in an Xpander.?you

would still lose the

code to control the?CV inputs.


Best Regards

Karl
 

Hi Tony,

Well, you could do alot if the software was rewritten. But to do that you would
need development tools from that era,
like a 6809 Emulator/debug system and so forth.
To me it would be easier to adapt a modern proccessor to the Xpanders voice
board and display I/O etc.
It blows my mind, how today you could put that entire digital board on a
thumbnail.
Still not an easy job though :-)

Best Regards

Karl
________________________________
From: Tony Cappellini <cappy2112@...>
To: xpantastic@...
Sent: Thu, August 4, 2011 9:08:36 AM
Subject: Re: [xpantastic] Why no Xpander mod. matrix implementation?

?


and?was successful in getting?it to work in an Xpander.?you would still lose the


code to control the?CV inputs.
Surely, this could be an option given to the user.
A certain key combination at power on would decide if the user wants CV inputs
or Matrix Mod display. Additionally,
a dedicated button press would be needed to enable the Matrix Mod display, but
this is easily done. There are many mod sources I don't use so I would gladly
sacrifice on of those buttons.

I would easily give up the CV inputs for the Matrix Mod display
 

Hi Matt,

I should have been more clear. I am assuming the digital boards of both the
Xpander and the M12 are the same.
I really don't know if they are, but if so, it would seem you could take a set
of coppied ROMs from an M12 and put them into an Xpander.? Giving the Xpander
the Modulation list page. However since the M12 roms never supported

the 6 CV/gate ?inputs they would not exsist to the firmware.

On th M12, the modulation?page gives you a list of all 20 modulation routings.
You can change the amount or the destination. I?find it most useful to delete
unused ones when I need more for some reason.?

But there is a bug. If you access the modulation page, for some reason it turns
off?any quantization?you may have set up.

Best Regards

Karl


________________________________
From: vrazomatt <vrazomatt@...>
To: xpantastic@...
Sent: Thu, August 4, 2011 10:56:27 AM
Subject: [xpantastic] Re: Why no Xpander mod. matrix implementation?

Karl,
I presume you are talking about the 6 cv/gate inputs (not the CV pedal inputs,
which I assume the M12 has as well)? If so, there is no direct CV-as-mod-source
ability now, so I'm not sure why this would have to be addressed in the
mod-matrix?

From my understanding, the mod matrix is just a compendium of all mod routings,
addressed though the already existing "misc" page, so no additional coding would

be necessary.
Anyways, I guess this is all just academic unless someone feels like writing
something up!:)

Am 04.08.2011 08:59, schrieb Karl Schmeer:

So if even if someone copied
the ROMs from an M12 and was successful in getting it to work in an
Xpander. you would still lose the
code to control the CV inputs.


Best Regards

Karl
 

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I think, it is a well designed, relatively intuitive to use and reliable machine as it is.
I never needed the mod-matrix display of a Matrix-12 in my Xpander since I buyed it in the late 80th because I was able to remember the modulations during programming,- and there are the ears too.
These machines aren?t made to do everything w/ the eyes and if someone wants that, there are the computers and editor applications.

I?ve found the detune page much more important for quick work w/ the Matrix 12,- and I would never give up the CV inputs for some visualization as long there?s other CV gear existing in the arsenal.

PeWe

Am 05.08.2011 01:02, schrieb Karl Schmeer:

?


Still not an easy job though :-)

__________________
From: Tony Cappellini <cappy2112@...>
To: xpantastic@...
Sent: Thu, August 4, 2011 9:08:36 AM
Subject: Re: [xpantastic] Why no Xpander mod. matrix implementation?

?

I would easily give up the CV inputs for the Matrix Mod display?
 

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You mean,- w/ a Matrix-12, if you?ve set up any quantized modulation or quantized portamento, these settings would be canceled by accessing the modulation page ?
Really ?
If yes and I?d know this as a user, I?d never access this page, which renders it useless.

Am 05.08.2011 01:21, schrieb Karl Schmeer:

?



But there is a bug. If you access the modulation page, for some reason it turns
off?any quantization?you may have set up.

Best Regards

Karl
 

>>Well, you could do alot if the software was rewritten. But to do that you would need development tools from that era,

>>like a 6809 Emulator/debug system and so forth.

I'm sure these are still available.

I know of people doing 6809 development, but it's higher-level languages.

>>To me it would be easier to adapt a modern proccessor to the Xpanders voice
>>board and display I/O etc.

Hitachi makes a 3 (or4??) MHZ pin compatible replacement for the 6809, that is used
in the computers by the above mentioned people. I think that is the E version of the 6809, which
isn't pin compatible with the 6809 in the Xpander (but is compatible on the instruction level).

A pic, or Arduino could do the job and without the zipper noise from heavy modulation, if it had enough I/O lines ;-)

Can you imagine o w many mod routings could be done by a modern processor?
100s, or 1000's per patch!!
?

>>Still not an easy job though :-)

I'm sure you can get beta code out to us by Monday though ;-)
 

Karl,

The mod matrix page is accessed through the "Misc" page, correct? So the implementation is based on hardware that already exists on the Xpander i.e. you wouldn't be giving up any other buttons.

So the big question is: would the mod matrix become available if you used M12 roms in the Xpander? Has anyone tried? I too could easily give up the cv/gate ins...

--- In xpantastic@..., Karl Schmeer <shire03@...> wrote:

Hi Matt,

I should have been more clear. I am assuming the digital boards of both the
Xpander and the M12 are the same.
I really don't know if they are, but if so, it would seem you could take a set
of coppied ROMs from an M12 and put them into an Xpander.?? Giving the Xpander
the Modulation list page. However since the M12 roms never supported

the 6 CV/gate ??inputs they would not exsist to the firmware.

On th M12, the modulation??page gives you a list of all 20 modulation routings.
You can change the amount or the destination. I??find it most useful to delete
unused ones when I need more for some reason.??

But there is a bug. If you access the modulation page, for some reason it turns
off??any quantization??you may have set up.

Best Regards

Karl


________________________________
From: vrazomatt <vrazomatt@...>
To: xpantastic@...
Sent: Thu, August 4, 2011 10:56:27 AM
Subject: [xpantastic] Re: Why no Xpander mod. matrix implementation?

Karl,
I presume you are talking about the 6 cv/gate inputs (not the CV pedal inputs,
which I assume the M12 has as well)? If so, there is no direct CV-as-mod-source
ability now, so I'm not sure why this would have to be addressed in the
mod-matrix?

From my understanding, the mod matrix is just a compendium of all mod routings,
addressed though the already existing "misc" page, so no additional coding would

be necessary.
Anyways, I guess this is all just academic unless someone feels like writing
something up!:)

Am 04.08.2011 08:59, schrieb Karl Schmeer:

So if even if someone copied
the ROMs from an M12 and was successful in getting it to work in an
Xpander. you would still lose the
code to control the CV inputs.


Best Regards

Karl
 

Hi Matt,


The mod matrix page is accessed through the "Misc" page, correct? So the
implementation is based on hardware that already exists on the Xpander i.e. you
wouldn't be giving up any other buttons.
Yep

So the big question is: would the mod matrix become available if you used M12
roms in the Xpander? Has anyone tried? I too could easily give up the cv/gate
ins...
AFAIK?it has never been tried before. I would want to take a long serious look
at the schematics and hardware
for each synth before I would even try it.

Best

Karl?

________________________________
From: vrazomatt <vrazomatt@...>
To: xpantastic@...
Sent: Fri, August 5, 2011 10:17:15 AM
Subject: [xpantastic] Re: Why no Xpander mod. matrix implementation?

--- In xpantastic@..., Karl Schmeer <shire03@...> wrote:

Hi Matt,

I should have been more clear. I am assuming the digital boards of both the
Xpander and the M12 are the same.
I really don't know if they are, but if so, it would seem you could take a set
of coppied ROMs from an M12 and put them into an Xpander.?? Giving the Xpander
the Modulation list page. However since the M12 roms never supported?
the 6 CV/gate ??inputs they would not exsist to the firmware.
On th M12, the modulation??page gives you a list of all 20 modulation routings.

You can change the amount or the destination. I??find it most useful to delete
unused ones when I need more for some reason.??
But there is a bug. If you access the modulation page, for some reason it turns


off??any quantization??you may have set up.

Best Regards

Karl


________________________________
From: vrazomatt <vrazomatt@...>
To: xpantastic@...
Sent: Thu, August 4, 2011 10:56:27 AM
Subject: [xpantastic] Re: Why no Xpander mod. matrix implementation?

Karl,
I presume you are talking about the 6 cv/gate inputs (not the CV pedal inputs,

which I assume the M12 has as well)? If so, there is no direct
CV-as-mod-source


ability now, so I'm not sure why this would have to be addressed in the
mod-matrix?

From my understanding, the mod matrix is just a compendium of all mod
routings,


addressed though the already existing "misc" page, so no additional coding
would


be necessary.
Anyways, I guess this is all just academic unless someone feels like writing
something up!:)

Am 04.08.2011 08:59, schrieb Karl Schmeer:

So if even if someone copied
the ROMs from an M12 and was successful in getting it to work in an
Xpander. you would still lose the
code to control the CV inputs.


Best Regards

Karl
 



>>AFAIK?it has never been tried before. I would want to take a long serious look?

The Matrix 12 ROMS will try to find the 2nd voice board which the Xpander doesn't have.
This *may* cause an error condition which keeps the CPU from completing
its initialization routine.
 

________________________________
From: Tony Cappellini <cappy2112@...>
To: xpantastic@...
Sent: Sat, August 6, 2011 10:10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [xpantastic] Re: Why no Xpander mod. matrix implementation?

?
AFAIK?it has never been tried before. I would want to take a long serious
look?
The Matrix 12 ROMS will try to find the 2nd voice board which the Xpander
doesn't have.
This *may* cause an error condition which keeps the CPU from completing
its initialization routine.

Good Point Tony.

I was thinking,?you could just turn off the voices?7 - 12 in the master page.
Your right,?it could never be that easy.

Karl

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