Matrix-12 EPROM files plus DAC calibration
I just had a US-made M-12 in for some serious work and took the opportunity to read the firmware EPROMs for the archives - they are now in the files area.
CPU board version was MAT1.1 and voice card version was CA1.4, but I upgraded the voice cards to CA1.6 because the unit exhibited the intermittent Voice Processor error messages which John Leimseider told us v1.6 is designed to eliminate (this only applies to rev.D voice cards - see his message in the archives).
Another little thing which might help someone in the future: when you engage the DAC OFFSET test in the SERVICE menu, you might expect the M-12 to zero the output of the DACs on both voice cards. Well it doesn't - it only zeroes one of them, according to whether 1-6 or 9-12 is selected on the front panel. The other DAC carries on doing its normal stuff and as a result appears to have a hideous offset problem!
I wasted a load of time looking for a fault that didn't exist thanks to that quirk, and can see from previous messages that I am not the only one it has confused. It stems from there being no words in the M-12 service manual, so all knowledge of the test modes comes from the Xpander SM.
Hope this helps somebody - cheers,
Steve L.
Benden Sound Technology
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Re: Xpander recap strategy
Hi, I would like to tell my experience: some time ago my Xpander failed on all the test of a single voice. I was thinking about a capacitor in the top of the voice circuit or in the voice management part of the voice board. I was wrong: the problem was a bad IC: the CEM 3372. So Cap 1 - IC 0! This is the reason why I haven't started the recap work.
I have a question: there are tants in the Xpander?
Thank you, Stefano
Il mercoled¨¬ 24 febbraio 2021, 00:31:42 CET, TC <cappy2112@...> ha scritto:
>>But the OP is asking how to approach this so that suggests they don't have the experience.
I've never done a full recap on any synth nor PCB
>>but does it solve an actual problem As mentioned in a prior post, several people posted replacing the bad caps when I described the symptoms. This was several years ago, I never got around to doing that.
After reading all of the replies, I will turn on the Xpander for a while, (maybe?autotune too) play through all of the voices and see which voices are still squirrelly?sounding. At that point, I'll post my results and see what the suggestions are.
I'd rather replace just a handful of caps, than bunches of them.
FYI- I do know how to solder/desolder, I'm NOT a synth tech by any stretch. I've replaced bad parts on an OB-8 and the Xpander in the past, but those were one-shot efforts.
On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 11:30 AM Jacob V < contact@...> wrote: I didn't mean to be disrespectful or unfriendly to the OP by what I wrote below. I don't know how experienced they are. But if it were me, and thinking of my own past repair stories, I think I should be asking myself if a recap would be a good idea.
Doing a recap feels like you're doing something, but does it solve an actual problem?
If you have the experience (and the tools) the risk of a recap is probably not that big, it's just tedious. But the OP is asking how to approach this so that suggests they don't have the experience. Then why take a risk doing surgery on a rare and valuable piece like an Xpander?
Op di 23 feb. 2021 om 13:18 schreef PeWe < ha-pewe@...>: Hi !
I also collected a pack of caps, but never used up to now.
I had a failing voice (#5) some time ago and thought it needs a new CEM
3372 and a re-cap, but it wasn?t.
At the end of the day it was simply and unexpected ... a resistor which
had to be replaced.
I bought my Xpander new late 1986 and technically it works like day ONE.
The only parts which urgently needed to be replaced were one of the 3372
already in the 90s and later,- the push buttons.
My Xpander has still the original rotarys.
I collected the Syntaur set of rotarys, but never needed to replace up
to now.
The original displays work too.
IIRC,? some PSU caps came new though ...
Maybe I have luck w/ my toy,- but I?d never go and re-cap a working machine.
When something fails, do a repair after painstakingly investigating for
the true failure.
New caps aren?t the solution always.
P.
Am 23.02.2021 um 00:06 schrieb TC:
> >>If You are *sure* You need to recap
> Many years ago, I had posted messages about squirrely sounding?voices
> (which also failed auto-tune0. PeWe and others referred me to
> specific?caps, but I never got around to replacing them.
> It seems like a good idea to do now while I have the time (actually,
> the space).
>
> All of your tips are good advice-thanks
>
--
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Re: Fuse blew on Xpander - Is it okay?
You had it serviced since the fuse blew?
The fuse is there to protect the rest of the circuitry, so it¡¯s unlikely anything else was damaged. If by some chance that voltage did get through, I imagine it would have caused a catastrophic failure, like frying the PSU.
What specifically are you hearing? When you play a standard patch, does each note sound pretty much the same? ?In the extremely rare chance there was damage to the voices, it¡¯s very unlikely that all six voices would have been damaged in the same way. I suppose damage to something later down the chain like the output amps could affect to overall sound, but again that¡¯s probably unlikely.?
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Fuse blew on Xpander - Is it okay?
Hi folks,
A few years ago now, soon after I bought it, I got the 120v / 240v thing wrong and the fuse blew.
I got a new fuse and everything sounded fine. But I still wonder if it ever sounded better!
Is it possible for the voice chips to blow if the fuse went?
I note that nothing else went wrong - the CPU or RAM etc - so why the voice chips?
My last point is I had it serviced 2 years ago and he said it was fine.
Does anyone think it blew the voice chips, or am I just dialing up rubbish patches?
Cheers,
Jeremy.
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Re: Xpander recap strategy
>>The IEC socket is the power socket at the rear, and the module contains capacitors inside the housing. Changing this can fix the VOICE PROCESSOR MALFUNCTION cold boot problem. Thanks for elaborating.
The IEC socket is the power socket at the rear, and the module contains capacitors inside the housing. Changing this can fix the VOICE PROCESSOR MALFUNCTION cold boot problem.. Well, it did for me anyway!
No idea where i read to do this, but it's a weak point allegedly. It's not hard to change, and not expensive.
If You are having system stability issues, especially when you first boot, put this on the list of things to do.
I'll echo other comments in this thread - certain types of caps in [music gear] do fail usually - like those annoying tants, and the dreaded RIFA caps - those you can take a blind stab at no matter what You are working on. But unless You are *reallllllly* sure you need to, i'd avoid doing a blanket recap on anything.
If You have reason to service a board or a section, start with the larger caps, and test them as you remove them. If they are within tolerance after 2 or 3, then maybe it's not worth it.
I'm knee-deep in capping a 1986 Revox PR99 at the moment, and i'm testing as i go. It's actually shocking how out some of the larger ones are - 220's testing as 300+ uf etc. I'm replacing all the polarised tants with same value/voltage electros as a rule though, all tants must die. that is all.
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Re: Xpander recap strategy
>>But the OP is asking how to approach this so that suggests they don't have the experience.
I've never done a full recap on any synth nor PCB
>>but does it solve an actual problem As mentioned in a prior post, several people posted replacing the bad caps when I described the symptoms. This was several years ago, I never got around to doing that.
After reading all of the replies, I will turn on the Xpander for a while, (maybe?autotune too) play through all of the voices and see which voices are still squirrelly?sounding. At that point, I'll post my results and see what the suggestions are.
I'd rather replace just a handful of caps, than bunches of them.
FYI- I do know how to solder/desolder, I'm NOT a synth tech by any stretch. I've replaced bad parts on an OB-8 and the Xpander in the past, but those were one-shot efforts.
On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 11:30 AM Jacob V < contact@...> wrote: I didn't mean to be disrespectful or unfriendly to the OP by what I wrote below. I don't know how experienced they are. But if it were me, and thinking of my own past repair stories, I think I should be asking myself if a recap would be a good idea.
Doing a recap feels like you're doing something, but does it solve an actual problem?
If you have the experience (and the tools) the risk of a recap is probably not that big, it's just tedious. But the OP is asking how to approach this so that suggests they don't have the experience. Then why take a risk doing surgery on a rare and valuable piece like an Xpander?
Op di 23 feb. 2021 om 13:18 schreef PeWe < ha-pewe@...>: Hi !
I also collected a pack of caps, but never used up to now.
I had a failing voice (#5) some time ago and thought it needs a new CEM
3372 and a re-cap, but it wasn?t.
At the end of the day it was simply and unexpected ... a resistor which
had to be replaced.
I bought my Xpander new late 1986 and technically it works like day ONE.
The only parts which urgently needed to be replaced were one of the 3372
already in the 90s and later,- the push buttons.
My Xpander has still the original rotarys.
I collected the Syntaur set of rotarys, but never needed to replace up
to now.
The original displays work too.
IIRC,? some PSU caps came new though ...
Maybe I have luck w/ my toy,- but I?d never go and re-cap a working machine.
When something fails, do a repair after painstakingly investigating for
the true failure.
New caps aren?t the solution always.
P.
Am 23.02.2021 um 00:06 schrieb TC:
> >>If You are *sure* You need to recap
> Many years ago, I had posted messages about squirrely sounding?voices
> (which also failed auto-tune0. PeWe and others referred me to
> specific?caps, but I never got around to replacing them.
> It seems like a good idea to do now while I have the time (actually,
> the space).
>
> All of your tips are good advice-thanks
>
--
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|
Re: Xpander recap strategy
The IEC socket is the power socket at the rear, and the module contains capacitors inside the housing. Changing this can fix the VOICE PROCESSOR MALFUNCTION cold boot problem.. Well, it did for me anyway!
No idea where i read to do this, but it's a weak point allegedly. It's not hard to change, and not expensive.
If You are having system stability issues, especially when you first boot, put this on the list of things to do.
I'll echo other comments in this thread - certain types of caps in [music gear] do fail usually - like those annoying tants, and the dreaded RIFA caps - those you can take a blind stab at no matter what You are working on. But unless You are *reallllllly* sure you need to, i'd avoid doing a blanket recap on anything.
If You have reason to service a board or a section, start with the larger caps, and test them as you remove them. If they are within tolerance after 2 or 3, then maybe it's not worth it.
I'm knee-deep in capping a 1986 Revox PR99 at the moment, and i'm testing as i go. It's actually shocking how out some of the larger ones are - 220's testing as 300+ uf etc. I'm replacing all the polarised tants with same value/voltage electros as a rule though, all tants must die. that is all.
|
Re: Xpander recap strategy
I didn't mean to be disrespectful or unfriendly to the OP by what I wrote below. I don't know how experienced they are. But if it were me, and thinking of my own past repair stories, I think I should be asking myself if a recap would be a good idea.
Doing a recap feels like you're doing something, but does it solve an actual problem?
If you have the experience (and the tools) the risk of a recap is probably not that big, it's just tedious. But the OP is asking how to approach this so that suggests they don't have the experience. Then why take a risk doing surgery on a rare and valuable piece like an Xpander?
Op di 23 feb. 2021 om 13:18 schreef PeWe < ha-pewe@...>: Hi !
I also collected a pack of caps, but never used up to now.
I had a failing voice (#5) some time ago and thought it needs a new CEM
3372 and a re-cap, but it wasn?t.
At the end of the day it was simply and unexpected ... a resistor which
had to be replaced.
I bought my Xpander new late 1986 and technically it works like day ONE.
The only parts which urgently needed to be replaced were one of the 3372
already in the 90s and later,- the push buttons.
My Xpander has still the original rotarys.
I collected the Syntaur set of rotarys, but never needed to replace up
to now.
The original displays work too.
IIRC,? some PSU caps came new though ...
Maybe I have luck w/ my toy,- but I?d never go and re-cap a working machine.
When something fails, do a repair after painstakingly investigating for
the true failure.
New caps aren?t the solution always.
P.
Am 23.02.2021 um 00:06 schrieb TC:
> >>If You are *sure* You need to recap
> Many years ago, I had posted messages about squirrely sounding?voices
> (which also failed auto-tune0. PeWe and others referred me to
> specific?caps, but I never got around to replacing them.
> It seems like a good idea to do now while I have the time (actually,
> the space).
>
> All of your tips are good advice-thanks
>
--
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|
Re: Voice 0 processor malfunction
You definitely want to back up those patches, yes.
I had issues early on when I got my Xpander (2016 I think) where the memory would get corrupted, machine wouldn't boot etc. It stopped after I unseated/reseated all my RAM IC's a couple of times (which is a sure fire way to lose your patches). My guess is it was corrosion in the IC sockets which got scraped off by reseating.
Anyway folks back up and running!! opened up the synth and had a good look around, checked all connections from voice / psu / processor board.... for a split second even thought that the? 68b09 chip might be the culprit as its known to be a cause of mem corruption although not as common as you might think.... the 6116's looked fine some newer than others but no visual defects, its actually a very tidy synth on the inside... closed her back up and done a hard mem reset (sure nothing to lose except my mind) haha...? power cycled and back into the diagnostics page, ran all the tests and tuning protocols.. five pass's! and still have my patches.... i am going to back them up again this week... cause that's nearly fifteen years of programming going on there! what a synth! so organic! i swear there's blood running though it! - Happy Irish GuY??? :)))
|
Re: Xpander recap strategy
Doing a recap feels like you're doing something, but does it solve an actual problem?
If you have the experience (and the tools) the risk of a recap is probably not that big, it's just tedious. But the OP is asking how to approach this so that suggests they don't have the experience. Then why take a risk doing surgery on a rare and valuable piece like an Xpander?
Op di 23 feb. 2021 om 13:18 schreef PeWe < ha-pewe@...>:
Hi !
I also collected a pack of caps, but never used up to now.
I had a failing voice (#5) some time ago and thought it needs a new CEM
3372 and a re-cap, but it wasn?t.
At the end of the day it was simply and unexpected ... a resistor which
had to be replaced.
I bought my Xpander new late 1986 and technically it works like day ONE.
The only parts which urgently needed to be replaced were one of the 3372
already in the 90s and later,- the push buttons.
My Xpander has still the original rotarys.
I collected the Syntaur set of rotarys, but never needed to replace up
to now.
The original displays work too.
IIRC,? some PSU caps came new though ...
Maybe I have luck w/ my toy,- but I?d never go and re-cap a working machine.
When something fails, do a repair after painstakingly investigating for
the true failure.
New caps aren?t the solution always.
P.
Am 23.02.2021 um 00:06 schrieb TC:
> >>If You are *sure* You need to recap
> Many years ago, I had posted messages about squirrely sounding?voices
> (which also failed auto-tune0. PeWe and others referred me to
> specific?caps, but I never got around to replacing them.
> It seems like a good idea to do now while I have the time (actually,
> the space).
>
> All of your tips are good advice-thanks
>
--
Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr¨¹ft.
|
Re: Voice 0 processor malfunction
Anyway folks back up and running!! opened up the synth and had a good look around, checked all connections from voice / psu / processor board.... for a split second even thought that the? 68b09 chip might be the culprit as its known to be a cause of mem corruption although not as common as you might think.... the 6116's looked fine some newer than others but no visual defects, its actually a very tidy synth on the inside... closed her back up and done a hard mem reset (sure nothing to lose except my mind) haha...? power cycled and back into the diagnostics page, ran all the tests and tuning protocols.. five pass's! and still have my patches.... i am going to back them up again this week... cause that's nearly fifteen years of programming going on there! what a synth! so organic! i swear there's blood running though it! - Happy Irish GuY??? :)))
|
Re: Xpander recap strategy
Hi ! I also collected a pack of caps, but never used up to now. I had a failing voice (#5) some time ago and thought it needs a new CEM 3372 and a re-cap, but it wasn?t. At the end of the day it was simply and unexpected ... a resistor which had to be replaced. I bought my Xpander new late 1986 and technically it works like day ONE. The only parts which urgently needed to be replaced were one of the 3372 already in the 90s and later,- the push buttons. My Xpander has still the original rotarys. I collected the Syntaur set of rotarys, but never needed to replace up to now. The original displays work too. IIRC,? some PSU caps came new though ... Maybe I have luck w/ my toy,- but I?d never go and re-cap a working machine. When something fails, do a repair after painstakingly investigating for the true failure. New caps aren?t the solution always. P. Am 23.02.2021 um 00:06 schrieb TC: If You are *sure* You need to recap
Many years ago, I had posted messages about squirrely sounding?voices
(which also failed auto-tune0. PeWe and others referred me to
specific?caps, but I never got around to replacing them.
It seems like a good idea to do now while I have the time (actually,
the space).
All of your tips are good advice-thanks
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|
Voice 0 processor malfunction
Hi folks, hope all is well with yourselves and your obies? just chiming in to ask a Q.... was playing my 12 yesterday, i left it for about 10 mins to go do something out of the studio and when i came back to it i noticed that it had frozen on me. well partially at least. i power cycled the synth and got a "voice 0 processor malfunction" msg on screen.... now im kinda stuck in multi patch mode (last mode it was in), wont switch to single mode at all for programming, synth still triggers voices and outputs sound , i can also access the tune page and the tuning process runs fine and everything pass's fine,? i can switch to the main master menu but cant access any of the available menus or page 2 menus to test ram / vram / leds / voices diagnostics etc - error msg makes sense in that context. i intend to open the synth up later today just to have a quick look and to check connections and ribbons to / from the processor board, i have the synthtaste power supply and the benden displays installed, everything has been brill on the board up until yesterday... so any ideas.....? are we talking replacing ram ic's (6116)'s on the processor board?? hoping to not have to test / replace all 16 ram ic's on the board. maybe its just one that's causing the lockouts? voice 0 or A0 is processed by all 16 ram ic's according to the schematics. ? Any ideas would be gratefully appreciated. keep up the good work - Dave
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Re: Xpander recap strategy
I fully agree to all the points in Tim¡¯s posting.?
Not only to the idea of establishing a good work flow, but even more so to his words on the general need for replacement of caps. I have seen so many boards in music electronics and there was only rare need to replace caps. Of course, every electronic part can fail or loose its initial specs. But to my surprise and contrary to what is told in the internet nowadays, I have often seen resistors and ceramics disc caps failing, and of course ICs and other semiconductors, mostly CMOS devices, but very rarely electrolytic caps. I have a very decent ESR and Capacitance meter: In many instances, the old caps have better specs than the new ones. So why on earth would you go through the hassle of replacing such components? Just for the fun if it or the believes in Mojo? And for what reason would you only swap the caps but not the other components also prone to fail?
If at all, I would just replace the tantals and the polystyrene/Styroflex capacitors. The tantals can be replaced by standard Au-electrolytic capacitors.? But in case you consider to replace the polystyrene/Styroflex caps with ¡°new¡± vintage technology Polystyrenes for whatever reason, please note that they are VERY sensitive to heat. You may end up with a ¡°new¡± cap in place that has worse specs and failure rate than the original one. The Xpander voice has Polstyrene caps in the voice filter circuit and in the CV section. If you believe in Styrene/Styroflex-Mojo on sound, you would only need to replace the styros in the filter section. For the board¡¯s CV section, standard multilayer caps are very fine.?
I am much looking forward to an A/B comparison between a fully recapped voice and an original voice with respect to sound and envelope speed and whatever is claimed to improve with recapping. Feel free to share.
Good luck with the soldering gun and with the precious Xpander. ?? -- Herzliche Gr¨¹?e
Hartmut Schwahn
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Re: Xpander recap strategy
>>If You are *sure* You need to recap Many years ago, I had posted messages about squirrely sounding?voices (which also failed auto-tune0. PeWe and others referred me to specific?caps, but I never got around to replacing them. It seems like a good idea to do now while I have the time (actually, the space).
All of your tips are good advice-thanks
>>don't forget the IEC mains power socket - replacing that should be the first thing on Your list if Not sure what you're referring to? IEC? I don't remember?hearing of this needing to be replaced, whatever it is ;-)
If You are *sure* You need to recap, it's all about keeping focus. Once You get into a safe routine for the board You are working on - the heat you need to remove the old cap, using whatever method You prefer that will not kill pads or lift traces, all You need to do is make sure you have really good pictures of the component side of the board,? so You can be 100% sure of the polarity of the replacements, then check Your work after each replacement. Do NOT remove all the caps and then try re-populate the board thinking it will save time, just do one at a time, and once it is installed, and confirmed as correct, mark it with a sharpie and move on.
Working out which solder mounds to remove, for what component, is a PITA. Flipping a board over & over trying to guess can be tiresome, but there is no substitute for simple counting - "...5 rows from the edge of the board.." - best just wear surgical gloves, use an anti-static desk mat, and count :) You can put sharpie do
The real trick to this is to get a feel for the board, and to make sure You have all the things You need to make the job work. Everybody has their own workflow that they prefer - Me, i like braid, flux, 350C hot & short contact for removal of solder (since it has plenty of lead) then high-lead content solder for the new part, then a brush with a toothbrush and IPA to finish.
You _can_ get away with just replacing the larger caps, and any tants - testing them with a meter upon removal will usually tell you if You are doing the right thing. You do not really need to replace every single cap ever, no matter what the internet or Youtube tells You.
Also, don't forget the IEC mains power socket - replacing that should be the first thing on Your list if You are having suspected cap-related instability/boot issues.
|
Re: Xpander recap strategy
If You are *sure* You need to recap, it's all about keeping focus. Once You get into a safe routine for the board You are working on - the heat you need to remove the old cap, using whatever method You prefer that will not kill pads or lift traces, all You need to do is make sure you have really good pictures of the component side of the board,? so You can be 100% sure of the polarity of the replacements, then check Your work after each replacement. Do NOT remove all the caps and then try re-populate the board thinking it will save time, just do one at a time, and once it is installed, and confirmed as correct, mark it with a sharpie and move on.
Working out which solder mounds to remove, for what component, is a PITA. Flipping a board over & over trying to guess can be tiresome, but there is no substitute for simple counting - "...5 rows from the edge of the board.." - best just wear surgical gloves, use an anti-static desk mat, and count :) You can put sharpie do
The real trick to this is to get a feel for the board, and to make sure You have all the things You need to make the job work. Everybody has their own workflow that they prefer - Me, i like braid, flux, 350C hot & short contact for removal of solder (since it has plenty of lead) then high-lead content solder for the new part, then a brush with a toothbrush and IPA to finish.
You _can_ get away with just replacing the larger caps, and any tants - testing them with a meter upon removal will usually tell you if You are doing the right thing. You do not really need to replace every single cap ever, no matter what the internet or Youtube tells You.
Also, don't forget the IEC mains power socket - replacing that should be the first thing on Your list if You are having suspected cap-related instability/boot issues.
|
Re: Xpander recap strategy
If you are going to do it, I would do the supply first and then proceed through the voices one by one checking everything as you go.
James
Hello All,
I hope this email finds you all in good health and good E-music.
I've been putting off recapping the voice circuits in my Xpander for way too long. I believe I've bought all of the caps several years ago from Digikey. They are just?sitting in a bag in my Xpander case waiting for a rainy day (week).
My wife will be going on a trip next month, so I will have a few weeks where I can leave the Xander out on the dining room table, without causing a problem ;-)
For those of you who have recapped the Xander before, I'm wondering if there are any better strategies to use. I do have an original schematic & service manual available, a good multimeter, but no scope.
Should I : - mark all of the caps in Voice 1, replace them, test Voice 1 before proceeding to the next Voice?
- Mark all of the caps that serve the same function in each voice and replace them?
I was thinking about using an ohmmeter probe on both sides of the PCB to make sure I have the correct cap, then place bright-colored dot stickers on both sides, to make sure I have the right cap, then replace it and continue to the next cap.
If I actually?finish the voice caps, I might try recapping the power supply?too.
Are there any other approaches?
Thanks
Tony
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Sale on Arturia's MAtrix-12V
$74 is a very good price if it's still valid.
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Recent article on the Matrix-12
I'm not sure if I found this article on Xpantastic or not, but here it is...
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Hello All,
I hope this email finds you all in good health and good E-music.
I've been putting off recapping the voice circuits in my Xpander for way too long. I believe I've bought all of the caps several years ago from Digikey. They are just?sitting in a bag in my Xpander case waiting for a rainy day (week).
My wife will be going on a trip next month, so I will have a few weeks where I can leave the Xander out on the dining room table, without causing a problem ;-)
For those of you who have recapped the Xander before, I'm wondering if there are any better strategies to use. I do have an original schematic & service manual available, a good multimeter, but no scope.
Should I : - mark all of the caps in Voice 1, replace them, test Voice 1 before proceeding to the next Voice?
- Mark all of the caps that serve the same function in each voice and replace them?
I was thinking about using an ohmmeter probe on both sides of the PCB to make sure I have the correct cap, then place bright-colored dot stickers on both sides, to make sure I have the right cap, then replace it and continue to the next cap.
If I actually?finish the voice caps, I might try recapping the power supply?too.
Are there any other approaches?
Thanks
Tony
|
r1n9o
Tim, EI4GNB
dave mezza
Mondovermona