Hi Karl
Thanks for your answer. Yes I am pretty sure. Voice No. 4 died completely (no sound at all, the tunig fails immediately). I started swapping the chips and that is the one that does not work (if I swap it with another voice, i.e. 5, then that one no longer works but 4 is fine again etc).
Haven't heard that these chips fail often but here it seems the case. The unit is in very good condition otherwise, I bought it some months ago from US.
Lovely lovely machine I do hope I will be able to use all 6 voices again.
Regards
flo
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In xpantastic@..., Karl Schmeer <shire03@...> wrote:
Hi,
Extreamly rare, are you sure that it is the problem. Have you tried swapping it with another
voice?
??
Karl
??
--- On Sat, 12/12/09, schmuckfenster <schmuckfenster@...> wrote:
From: schmuckfenster <schmuckfenster@...>
Subject: [xpantastic] CEM 3374
To: xpantastic@...
Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009, 1:43 PM
??
Hi
Unfortunately one of these chips died on my Xpander. If somebody has one for sale please let me know.
Many thanks.
|
Hi,
Extreamly rare, are you sure that it is the problem. Have you tried swapping it with another
voice?
?
Karl
?
|
--- On Sat, 12/12/09, schmuckfenster wrote:
From: schmuckfenster
Subject: [xpantastic] CEM 3374
To: xpantastic@...
Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009, 1:43 PM
?
Hi
Unfortunately one of these chips died on my Xpander. If somebody has one for sale please let me know.
Many thanks.
|
Hi
Unfortunately one of these chips died on my Xpander. If somebody has one for sale please let me know.
Many thanks.
|
Re: Total Filter Replacement: good idea?
Thanks Karl, great advice! I definitely need to try swapping chips first-it seems to be a day to day thing where one day the filters really sound out of wack, and then other days (like today) they are pretty much all in tune.
But it's also good to know about those caps...
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In xpantastic@..., Karl Schmeer <shire03@...> wrote:
Hi Matt,
??
Well, if the filters on two voices are opening up too much that would point to replacing the??filter over the vco chips. (A VCF with a different frequency response??would change your filter FM sounds also)
??
All the IC's are in sockets, so It's easy to change out the VCF chip. Also you could
trade VCF chips from another voice.
??
If changing out VCF chips does not work, You could try the VCO's next.
??
Next, ??I would look at the coupling capacitors in the voices that are causing problems.
The FM signal feeds to the VCF through a??2.2uF 50 Vcap??. Also??the voice output signal has one. During a tuning sequence these could be causing??"not correct" calibration constants
to be stored in memory, thereby causing your filter chips to be off.
After doing any of these changes, You should run all the tuning routines.??Then try it out.????
??
Statically the capacitors in the voice signal have been the most common??fail.??They tend to fail over time, and??are probably at least??15 YO.?? They are very inexpensive, it's just takes time.
??
These are the most likely capacitors to change:
The capacitor value is 2.2 uF 50 V The voltage rating must be 50V or it will limit the signal??
that goes through it.?? I would not want to use a larger voltage rating either, as it may damage components downstream from it.??
note:?? x = voice number
??
Cx02?????? FM in
Cx49?????? VCA out?? - Main Voice out to final mix.?? -?? Most likely Bet IMO
Cx48???? VCF out
Cx47???? VCA in????
??
??
As far as the Matched sets go. I have always been curious as to what parameters they are matched for???In theory the tuning routines in the Xpander/M12 should take care of any differences between any set of chips.
??
Good Luck
??
Karl Schmeer
??
????
??
??
??
??
??????
??
??
??
??
--- On Fri, 11/13/09, mattvrazo <vrazomatt@...> wrote:
From: mattvrazo <vrazomatt@...>
Subject: [xpantastic] Total Filter Replacement: good idea?
To: xpantastic@...
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 4:09 PM
??
I have posted in the past about my filter FM not being consistent across all voices-2 voices in particular are always different. Even with FM off, there are still fairly noticeable differences in the filter of those two voices compared to everything else.
So I am assuming that either the filter chips for those two voices are going south OR the VCO chips are. I have spares for both, but before I start pulling things out, I am wondering which chip is the more likely one to be an issue?
Filter FM is linked to osc 1, so if there are issues with that VCO chip, it will sound off (even if the VCOs themselves are perfectly in tune). But given that the filter sounds more bright or "different" on those same voices, even with FM off, I am thinking it is more likely a filter chip issue... The FM doesn't bother me so much, but having slightly different filter "openness" on 2 voices does.
What should my plan of attack be (i.e. start swapping chips, or throw in replacements) ?
Also, will I notice much difference compared to the remaining voices if I replace one or 2 filter chips? i.e. is it better to replace all 6 for a consistent sound, or does it make any difference? 3372s are fairly cheap now, so I wonder if it is better to buy a "matched" set?
|
sorry my first post is a FS post, but me and the Matrix did not get along as much as I thought we would. reply off list please. haven1 (at) gmail.com
am selling a Matrix-12 for $2700 USD (3 issues noted below)
Buyer pays shipping and packing from Vancouver Canada.
Verified Paypal only please.
Local pick up with cash OK.
- trades considered Nord Rack 3, Monomachine
I have some references on AH such as Intellijel - but I mostly sell
through Muffwiggler.com (the BEST modular synth forum) and the Doepfer yahoogroup
- All voices pass the tuning procedure and sound similar
- 12 outputs are installed (possibly from the factory?)
- 2 fans are installed (possibly from the factory?)
- heat sinks are installed on the VCO chips (possibly from the factory?)
- made in Japan
high res pictures here www.eroei.ca/zips/MATRIX12_pics.zip
Issues
#1 one button does not work (mod: tracking generator assign)
#2 one button needs a a bit of a rub (multimode)
#3 one encoder is mounted in reverse (clock wise turns decrease the
value) and has a different "click" feel to it (encoder #2).
#1 and #2 would probably be solved by cleaning the buttons. I don't
have time to do this so I have lowered my price. #3 is obviously a
repair job with the wrong part and polarity - polarity is probably a
simple wire swap - and not that good with an iron and it is cramped in
there.
more detail
encoder #2 has been changed by a previous owner. the feel of it is
different, meaning the clicks it makes are spaced wider - I think this
is called pulses per turn. The encoder output is also reversed, so a
clock wise turn decrease the value. I can tell the encoder is mounted
a different direction when looking at it with the matrix12 open as the
terminals are facing up, instead of down. unfortunately my camera will
not focus on this so I could not take a picture (I would need a macro
lens I think). this would make it easy to flip the terminal wiring I
assume. there was a post on the Xpantastic yahoo group a month ago or
so about where to source replacement encoders that will work.
the tracking generator assign button in the mod routings row does not
work. It probably just needs to be cleaned. some other buttons need to
be cleaned as you need to gently rock the button for it to work. The
tracking generator assign button is the only one that does not work at
all, the rest are a gentle rub and it works. this happens to all the
gear with this kind of button and apparently and it is a an easy fix
by taking the buttons apart and cleaning them with. These buttons are
hard to replace as the manufacturer will only sell them in large
amounts, so I decided I could live with one button I never use not
working and did not want to risk taking the whole machine apart. The
button is the same as in the Eventide H3000 if that helps. There is
lots of info online about this as everyone with an Xpander or
Matrix-12 has had trouble with the buttons it seems.
These issues and the cosmetic scratches you can see in the pictures I
feel devalue the Matrix-12 I have, hence my lower price than normal.
If I brought it to the local techs I could get it fixed up %100, but
the labour costs would mean I would have to raise the price, making it
harder to sell. If you are DIY inclined you stand to save money if you
decide to make these repairs. I have been using it
without making the repairs as I personally find them to not prevent me
from using it in music.
|
Re: Total Filter Replacement: good idea?
Hi Matt,
?
Well, if the filters on two voices are opening up too much that would point to replacing the?filter over the vco chips. (A VCF with a different frequency response?would change your filter FM sounds also)
?
All the IC's are in sockets, so It's easy to change out the VCF chip. Also you could
trade VCF chips from another voice.
?
If changing out VCF chips does not work, You could try the VCO's next.
?
Next, ?I would look at the coupling capacitors in the voices that are causing problems.
The FM signal feeds to the VCF through a?2.2uF 50 Vcap?. Also?the voice output signal has one. During a tuning sequence these could be causing?"not correct" calibration constants
to be stored in memory, thereby causing your filter chips to be off.
After doing any of these changes, You should run all the tuning routines.?Then try it out.??
?
Statically the capacitors in the voice signal have been the most common?fail.?They tend to fail over time, and?are probably at least?15 YO.? They are very inexpensive, it's just takes time.
?
These are the most likely capacitors to change:
The capacitor value is 2.2 uF 50 V The voltage rating must be 50V or it will limit the signal?
that goes through it.? I would not want to use a larger voltage rating either, as it may damage components downstream from it.?
note:? x = voice number
?
Cx02??? FM in
Cx49??? VCA out? - Main Voice out to final mix.? -? Most likely Bet IMO
Cx48?? VCF out
Cx47?? VCA in??
?
?
As far as the Matched sets go. I have always been curious as to what parameters they are matched for??In theory the tuning routines in the Xpander/M12 should take care of any differences between any set of chips.
?
Good Luck
?
Karl Schmeer
?
??
?
?
?
?
???
?
?
?
?
|
--- On Fri, 11/13/09, mattvrazo wrote:
From: mattvrazo
Subject: [xpantastic] Total Filter Replacement: good idea?
To: xpantastic@...
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 4:09 PM
?
I have posted in the past about my filter FM not being consistent across all voices-2 voices in particular are always different. Even with FM off, there are still fairly noticeable differences in the filter of those two voices compared to everything else.
So I am assuming that either the filter chips for those two voices are going south OR the VCO chips are. I have spares for both, but before I start pulling things out, I am wondering which chip is the more likely one to be an issue?
Filter FM is linked to osc 1, so if there are issues with that VCO chip, it will sound off (even if the VCOs themselves are perfectly in tune). But given that the filter sounds more bright or "different" on those same voices, even with FM off, I am thinking it is more likely a filter chip issue... The FM doesn't bother me so much, but having slightly different filter "openness" on 2 voices does.
What should my plan of attack be (i.e. start
swapping chips, or throw in replacements) ?
Also, will I notice much difference compared to the remaining voices if I replace one or 2 filter chips? i.e. is it better to replace all 6 for a consistent sound, or does it make any difference? 3372s are fairly cheap now, so I wonder if it is better to buy a "matched" set?
|
Total Filter Replacement: good idea?
I have posted in the past about my filter FM not being consistent across all voices-2 voices in particular are always different. Even with FM off, there are still fairly noticeable differences in the filter of those two voices compared to everything else.
So I am assuming that either the filter chips for those two voices are going south OR the VCO chips are. I have spares for both, but before I start pulling things out, I am wondering which chip is the more likely one to be an issue?
Filter FM is linked to osc 1, so if there are issues with that VCO chip, it will sound off (even if the VCOs themselves are perfectly in tune). But given that the filter sounds more bright or "different" on those same voices, even with FM off, I am thinking it is more likely a filter chip issue... The FM doesn't bother me so much, but having slightly different filter "openness" on 2 voices does.
What should my plan of attack be (i.e. start swapping chips, or throw in replacements)?
Also, will I notice much difference compared to the remaining voices if I replace one or 2 filter chips? i.e. is it better to replace all 6 for a consistent sound, or does it make any difference? 3372s are fairly cheap now, so I wonder if it is better to buy a "matched" set?
|
Hi! Anyone has changed the rotary encoders of our Xpander/Matrix12? I would like to buy some new encoders but I'm a bit confused about pulses/sizes/phase shift/etc....
Could we talk about them?
Stefano
|
Re: Auto tuning - RES failed?
Hi !
Do a search in the group for Takis and Karl?s posts regarding "autotune
failure", starting september 2008.
You probably have to replace some caps on the voiceboards now.
One of Karl?s posts in copy here:
Hi Takis,
The other caps are Cx33 and Cx37 with x being 2,3,4,5,6,7 for each
voice respectivly. And Yes they are the same 2.2uF 50V Make sure they
are 50V rating. and correct polarity (You probobly knew that)
But before you replace those, try this.You are saying you are having
problems with all the voices right?
This points to the main DAC/Tuming circuit as you have already
guessed.
I would look closely at:
U811 The DAC
U816,U805 Multiplexer 4051
U812,U815,U813 Op Amps TLO81,TLO84,
TLO81
U814 Analog Switch 4053
Any of these parts failing could cause tuning problems like you
describe.
Now, before you replace them carfully pull them from the sockets and
re-seat them. Sometimes corrosion on the socket/chip lead can cause
a "not to good" connection. Also before I replaced them I would
reflow the solder on the bottom of the board, as bad solder joints
could also cause this.
If this does not work replace em. All except the DAC are readily
available. I would wait till you replaced the other chips before you
went searching for this DAC to see if any others are the cause. If
one of the chips have failed, I would bet on the mux or analog switch.
It would not hurt to replace the capacitors I mentioned above, as
they are probobly on their way out anyway.
Let Me Know How It Goes
Karl
mursupeppe schrieb:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
Hi there, I wonder what could be a problem with the Matrix 12 when
everything else's tuning well - except RES? Filter chips should be
okay. It seems to "think" for a while whilst tuning RES on voices 3 and
5, and after the tuning cycle is complete, "FAIL" appears.
Any ideas? Should we just re-check everything or are there any specific
areas in which the probable source of this problem exists?
Thanks,
-P.
|
Auto tuning - RES failed?
Hi there, I wonder what could be a problem with the Matrix 12 when everything else's tuning well - except RES? Filter chips should be okay. It seems to "think" for a while whilst tuning RES on voices 3 and 5, and after the tuning cycle is complete, "FAIL" appears.
Any ideas? Should we just re-check everything or are there any specific areas in which the probable source of this problem exists?
Thanks,
-P.
|
There were actually two auctions recently for NOS 3374s and 3372s...for quite cheap too.. not to rub that in anyone's face, but just to point out that they are out there!
|
|
|
Wow !
Very good information,- many thanks for sharing !!!
PeWe
mursupeppe schrieb:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
My tech fella, Mr. Mikko K?ykk? replied as follows:
---
Electrically any 2-bit binary encoder should work. Recommended
resolution is 20 - 30 pulses per turn to preserve the original touch
of the knobs. Encoder wiring may vary, so you may need to cross-wire
pins 1 and 3.
Shaft diameter is 6 mm and minimum length measured from the PCB bottom
12 mm. Holes on the Matrix-12 board are slightly too big for
replacement encoders, so it's important to use a suitable washer and
an extra sleeve that fills the gap nicely. Also it may be necessary to
drill a small guide hole just above the big hole to make encoders fit
perfectly.
---
Honestly, I'd let him operate my guts as well. :-D
-P.
|
My tech fella, Mr. Mikko K?ykk? replied as follows:
---
Electrically any 2-bit binary encoder should work. Recommended
resolution is 20 - 30 pulses per turn to preserve the original touch
of the knobs. Encoder wiring may vary, so you may need to cross-wire
pins 1 and 3.
Shaft diameter is 6 mm and minimum length measured from the PCB bottom
12 mm. Holes on the Matrix-12 board are slightly too big for
replacement encoders, so it's important to use a suitable washer and
an extra sleeve that fills the gap nicely. Also it may be necessary to
drill a small guide hole just above the big hole to make encoders fit
perfectly.
---
Honestly, I'd let him operate my guts as well. :-D
-P.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In xpantastic@..., "shire03@..." <shire03@...> wrote:
Hi All,
That Rotory Encoader Up/Grade fix sounds really interesting.
Yes, Please post all the gory details. Also please do post any
Failure / Fix you come across. I am constantly keeping a list of
Fixes. I compile them and post it from time to time.
If it's OK with the moderator I'll put it in the database.
- Karl
--- In xpantastic@..., "mursupeppe" <petri.alanko@> wrote:
Hi and thanks for the links.
I happen to know the deep mud I'm in and so I just recently bought two Xpanders (one beyond repairs, the other should be fine), just to find out whether there's anything worth scavenging. Again, I'll let you know if and what.
Up to now, I never had a blown 3374 in my Xpander,- but I?m on the
waitlist for 3374 @vintage planet for years and like many others are.
CEM3372 are much easier to find. I've heard people tell this about their 3374s, but after cross-checking I really have to admit that one of them is really broken. The other one's outputting triangle wave minor third higher than expected, so I cannot count that as "gone", not yet, at least. Something else could be wrong as well, but we're still doing testing and concentrating on the physical issues.
The case:
Buying vintage gear @ebay, you always buy "private" and because of being
"vintage" w/ no warranty and no return.
You agree on this if you bid ! It didn't go like that.
I first asked a few questions very carefully, as I wasn't on the holy pony for the first time. I've owned quite a few analog synths in my past and know what they can be like. Finding a pristine - mint, whatever - thing is about as rare as waking up in Mars. Nag nag, yadda yadda, boo hoo... (cont'd)
If someone is doing this, he should be prepared for issues unless it?s
made evident the item is in working condition electronically (!!!). (cont'd)...which is what I was _told_, literally: "in 100% working condition".
But there?s no guarantee w/ vintage gear, (tack)-switches and pots will
be without issues or the unit won?t blow up the next time you power it
up after arrival. I've got a few analog modulars that are about as moody as a difficult teenager after two beers. I have a faint feeling the behaviour you just described is remotely familiar. I just wouldn't sell any of those as "trouble-free" or "perfectly functioning". :-D
I'm not too keen on opening the case any more than this. What's my problem shouldn't poison the rest of you, even though I was the cat that brought the carcass in. Sorry for bad feelings, everyone, but I'll keep the lid on from now on.
Refurbishing a Xpander or a Matrix-12 means a big time investment in
search for all the available parts, investing money for the parts and
doing all the work yourself if you have the technical skills and own the
tools necessary. Well, I'm relatively good at troubleshooting, the other guys do the dirty work since I'm about as handy as a paralyzed baboon could ever be. I'm pretty confident we'll sort this out with some amount of time. And money. Argh. :-/
The goal is no longer to refurbish, but reconstruct and improve, I'd say. See (x) below.
Noone can expect to buy a piece of gear which cost over 10.000.- bucks
in the past for 2.000 - 3.000 $ now and it?s like new,- that?s stupid. That wasn't the price I paid, not even close, I happened to pay quite a lot more. Obviously, though, you're talking "in general" and not probably referring to this case, but I'll agree with you completely.
The manufacturing of dyno-synths like Matrix-12 and Prophet 10 / T-8
killed small companies like Oberheim and Sequential in the past because
of the costs and the sales. I'd say we could blame DX7 and D50 at least partially for that. Them and the evolution of pop taste.
These are the CEM3374, the rotarys and the displays.
Also, I?m not sure about the switches and numeric key pad.
Actually, I doubt the display replacement of Steve Lenham will appear
near future. (x) Newsflash! The keyboard tech replaced every rotary pot with a similar part and all he had to do was reverse the connection as the spare parts weren't identical to originals. The result: they all work now. If anyone needs further info, let me know and I'll ask dirty details. The feel is similar, but a bit quieter. No more "tr.. tr.. rrr... RRRrrr" whilst editing. The bonus: the pots have a switch built-in, so one could override the push buttons under the display as well if wanted and replace them with a nice led thingy or... never mind. :-)
He was also pretty confident he could replace the displays with an updated part of sorts, but it would lose the "Xpander/Matrix" style. Instead, it would be and LCD (if I remember correctly) and black/white. Again, don't blame me for not asking details before writing.
(Waiting for a FrankenMatrix to resurrect.)
Switches and rotarys as well as displays are 2nd row IMO,- the
workaround is to use bankloader and editing software to use a
electronically working machine in the studio. I agree, my approach is because of my personal preferences: I like to "feel" the synth.
b.t.w.,- if someone needs processors for Xpander/Matrix-12,- you?ll find
?em in Matrix-1000s (and eventually Matrix-6,- I?m not sure). As far as I know, there are six CEM3396 IC chips inside. I don't remember Xpander using those - is there something I should know?
|
Please, check the following pages and feel free to add there new information relateted to Xpander and Matrix-12:
Tiitu
|
I'm not a Moderator but I certainly would welcome a list of fixes. I plan to keep my Xpander going for as long as possible and I'm a firm believer that it's not all doom and gloom when it comes to fixing these things. I really think its worth trying everything to fix before stripping a machine or cannibalising another. They are starting to get rare and it's a responsibility you take on when you buy these machines to keep them going I feel (thats the way I felt)...obviously thats not the case in reality, but I didn't buy a cs-80 when I could have because I didn't think I could keep up the maintenance costs if something did go wrong. There are plenty of people out there who have more than a passing interest in these machines and I think there will always be someone out there who's far more technically minded than me that will work out a fix and thank god for them.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In xpantastic@..., "shire03@..." <shire03@...> wrote:
Hi All,
That Rotory Encoader Up/Grade fix sounds really interesting.
Yes, Please post all the gory details. Also please do post any
Failure / Fix you come across. I am constantly keeping a list of
Fixes. I compile them and post it from time to time.
If it's OK with the moderator I'll put it in the database.
- Karl
--- In xpantastic@..., "mursupeppe" <petri.alanko@> wrote:
Hi and thanks for the links.
I happen to know the deep mud I'm in and so I just recently bought two Xpanders (one beyond repairs, the other should be fine), just to find out whether there's anything worth scavenging. Again, I'll let you know if and what.
Up to now, I never had a blown 3374 in my Xpander,- but I?m on the
waitlist for 3374 @vintage planet for years and like many others are.
CEM3372 are much easier to find. I've heard people tell this about their 3374s, but after cross-checking I really have to admit that one of them is really broken. The other one's outputting triangle wave minor third higher than expected, so I cannot count that as "gone", not yet, at least. Something else could be wrong as well, but we're still doing testing and concentrating on the physical issues.
The case:
Buying vintage gear @ebay, you always buy "private" and because of being
"vintage" w/ no warranty and no return.
You agree on this if you bid ! It didn't go like that.
I first asked a few questions very carefully, as I wasn't on the holy pony for the first time. I've owned quite a few analog synths in my past and know what they can be like. Finding a pristine - mint, whatever - thing is about as rare as waking up in Mars. Nag nag, yadda yadda, boo hoo... (cont'd)
If someone is doing this, he should be prepared for issues unless it?s
made evident the item is in working condition electronically (!!!). (cont'd)...which is what I was _told_, literally: "in 100% working condition".
But there?s no guarantee w/ vintage gear, (tack)-switches and pots will
be without issues or the unit won?t blow up the next time you power it
up after arrival. I've got a few analog modulars that are about as moody as a difficult teenager after two beers. I have a faint feeling the behaviour you just described is remotely familiar. I just wouldn't sell any of those as "trouble-free" or "perfectly functioning". :-D
I'm not too keen on opening the case any more than this. What's my problem shouldn't poison the rest of you, even though I was the cat that brought the carcass in. Sorry for bad feelings, everyone, but I'll keep the lid on from now on.
Refurbishing a Xpander or a Matrix-12 means a big time investment in
search for all the available parts, investing money for the parts and
doing all the work yourself if you have the technical skills and own the
tools necessary. Well, I'm relatively good at troubleshooting, the other guys do the dirty work since I'm about as handy as a paralyzed baboon could ever be. I'm pretty confident we'll sort this out with some amount of time. And money. Argh. :-/
The goal is no longer to refurbish, but reconstruct and improve, I'd say. See (x) below.
Noone can expect to buy a piece of gear which cost over 10.000.- bucks
in the past for 2.000 - 3.000 $ now and it?s like new,- that?s stupid. That wasn't the price I paid, not even close, I happened to pay quite a lot more. Obviously, though, you're talking "in general" and not probably referring to this case, but I'll agree with you completely.
The manufacturing of dyno-synths like Matrix-12 and Prophet 10 / T-8
killed small companies like Oberheim and Sequential in the past because
of the costs and the sales. I'd say we could blame DX7 and D50 at least partially for that. Them and the evolution of pop taste.
These are the CEM3374, the rotarys and the displays.
Also, I?m not sure about the switches and numeric key pad.
Actually, I doubt the display replacement of Steve Lenham will appear
near future. (x) Newsflash! The keyboard tech replaced every rotary pot with a similar part and all he had to do was reverse the connection as the spare parts weren't identical to originals. The result: they all work now. If anyone needs further info, let me know and I'll ask dirty details. The feel is similar, but a bit quieter. No more "tr.. tr.. rrr... RRRrrr" whilst editing. The bonus: the pots have a switch built-in, so one could override the push buttons under the display as well if wanted and replace them with a nice led thingy or... never mind. :-)
He was also pretty confident he could replace the displays with an updated part of sorts, but it would lose the "Xpander/Matrix" style. Instead, it would be and LCD (if I remember correctly) and black/white. Again, don't blame me for not asking details before writing.
(Waiting for a FrankenMatrix to resurrect.)
Switches and rotarys as well as displays are 2nd row IMO,- the
workaround is to use bankloader and editing software to use a
electronically working machine in the studio. I agree, my approach is because of my personal preferences: I like to "feel" the synth.
b.t.w.,- if someone needs processors for Xpander/Matrix-12,- you?ll find
?em in Matrix-1000s (and eventually Matrix-6,- I?m not sure). As far as I know, there are six CEM3396 IC chips inside. I don't remember Xpander using those - is there something I should know?
|
Ciao!
To tell you my experience, I have been able to find all of these, i.e., buttons, a very few CEM3374's at the eBay and even a 'new' unused Xpander display! So it is not absolutely impossible. Rotary encoders can be replaced and there is a replacing display unit about on the market. As far as I know, buttons, displays, encoders and especially the 3374's has been sold out during the last few years, but you may still find single or more components at eBay, if you follow it regularly enough. Searching any of the components on this forum, will give you some more hints. As has been told, however, the quickest way to get spare parts is to buy a broken Xpander or Matrix-12.
Tiitu
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Hi All,
That Rotory Encoader Up/Grade fix sounds really interesting.
Yes, Please post all the gory details. Also please do post any
Failure / Fix you come across. I am constantly keeping a list of
Fixes. I compile them and post it from time to time.
If it's OK with the moderator I'll put it in the database.
- Karl
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--- In xpantastic@..., "mursupeppe" <petri.alanko@...> wrote:
Hi and thanks for the links.
I happen to know the deep mud I'm in and so I just recently bought two Xpanders (one beyond repairs, the other should be fine), just to find out whether there's anything worth scavenging. Again, I'll let you know if and what.
Up to now, I never had a blown 3374 in my Xpander,- but I?m on the
waitlist for 3374 @vintage planet for years and like many others are.
CEM3372 are much easier to find. I've heard people tell this about their 3374s, but after cross-checking I really have to admit that one of them is really broken. The other one's outputting triangle wave minor third higher than expected, so I cannot count that as "gone", not yet, at least. Something else could be wrong as well, but we're still doing testing and concentrating on the physical issues.
The case:
Buying vintage gear @ebay, you always buy "private" and because of being
"vintage" w/ no warranty and no return.
You agree on this if you bid ! It didn't go like that.
I first asked a few questions very carefully, as I wasn't on the holy pony for the first time. I've owned quite a few analog synths in my past and know what they can be like. Finding a pristine - mint, whatever - thing is about as rare as waking up in Mars. Nag nag, yadda yadda, boo hoo... (cont'd)
If someone is doing this, he should be prepared for issues unless it?s
made evident the item is in working condition electronically (!!!). (cont'd)...which is what I was _told_, literally: "in 100% working condition".
But there?s no guarantee w/ vintage gear, (tack)-switches and pots will
be without issues or the unit won?t blow up the next time you power it
up after arrival. I've got a few analog modulars that are about as moody as a difficult teenager after two beers. I have a faint feeling the behaviour you just described is remotely familiar. I just wouldn't sell any of those as "trouble-free" or "perfectly functioning". :-D
I'm not too keen on opening the case any more than this. What's my problem shouldn't poison the rest of you, even though I was the cat that brought the carcass in. Sorry for bad feelings, everyone, but I'll keep the lid on from now on.
Refurbishing a Xpander or a Matrix-12 means a big time investment in
search for all the available parts, investing money for the parts and
doing all the work yourself if you have the technical skills and own the
tools necessary. Well, I'm relatively good at troubleshooting, the other guys do the dirty work since I'm about as handy as a paralyzed baboon could ever be. I'm pretty confident we'll sort this out with some amount of time. And money. Argh. :-/
The goal is no longer to refurbish, but reconstruct and improve, I'd say. See (x) below.
Noone can expect to buy a piece of gear which cost over 10.000.- bucks
in the past for 2.000 - 3.000 $ now and it?s like new,- that?s stupid. That wasn't the price I paid, not even close, I happened to pay quite a lot more. Obviously, though, you're talking "in general" and not probably referring to this case, but I'll agree with you completely.
The manufacturing of dyno-synths like Matrix-12 and Prophet 10 / T-8
killed small companies like Oberheim and Sequential in the past because
of the costs and the sales. I'd say we could blame DX7 and D50 at least partially for that. Them and the evolution of pop taste.
These are the CEM3374, the rotarys and the displays.
Also, I?m not sure about the switches and numeric key pad.
Actually, I doubt the display replacement of Steve Lenham will appear
near future. (x) Newsflash! The keyboard tech replaced every rotary pot with a similar part and all he had to do was reverse the connection as the spare parts weren't identical to originals. The result: they all work now. If anyone needs further info, let me know and I'll ask dirty details. The feel is similar, but a bit quieter. No more "tr.. tr.. rrr... RRRrrr" whilst editing. The bonus: the pots have a switch built-in, so one could override the push buttons under the display as well if wanted and replace them with a nice led thingy or... never mind. :-)
He was also pretty confident he could replace the displays with an updated part of sorts, but it would lose the "Xpander/Matrix" style. Instead, it would be and LCD (if I remember correctly) and black/white. Again, don't blame me for not asking details before writing.
(Waiting for a FrankenMatrix to resurrect.)
Switches and rotarys as well as displays are 2nd row IMO,- the
workaround is to use bankloader and editing software to use a
electronically working machine in the studio. I agree, my approach is because of my personal preferences: I like to "feel" the synth.
b.t.w.,- if someone needs processors for Xpander/Matrix-12,- you?ll find
?em in Matrix-1000s (and eventually Matrix-6,- I?m not sure). As far as I know, there are six CEM3396 IC chips inside. I don't remember Xpander using those - is there something I should know?
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mursupeppe schrieb:
I've heard people tell this about their 3374s, but after
cross-checking I really have to admit that one of them is really
broken. The other one's outputting triangle wave minor third higher
than expected, so I cannot count that as "gone", not yet, at least.
Something else could be wrong as well, but we're still doing testing
and concentrating on the physical issues.
Because this is related to the voiceboards, Id 1st recap em,- its 70 caps to replace. Check the PSU too for stability, caps, diode. (cont'd)...which is what I was _told_, literally: "in 100% working
condition". Yes, Im sure you asked a lot,- but "privat, no guarantee, no return" means you agree on this if you bid and buy and this is all which counts in a case. So, I dt see youll get any money back and its sad I have to say it this way. I just wouldn't sell any of those as "trouble-free" or "perfectly functioning". :-D Yep,- thats nice to read from you and be sure I myself wont too,- but there are many other human beings around, you know. I myself I have no real issues up to now even I toured w/ my Xpander over europe, north africa and eastern block/black sea in the 80th/90th. Actually I dont plan to sell it, but try to beware it from more issues as it has actually, which is some switches, one of the pushbuttons of the numeric keypad and 2 rotarys which eventually only need a cleaning job. But I also buyed some parts to have em in stock,- a matched set of CEM3372 signal generators and I got 100 caps to replace the 70 needed for the voiceboards before it shows issues. I'm pretty confident we'll sort this out with some amount of time. And money. Argh. :-/ Be sure, youre not alone and I feel w/ you. Obviously, though, you're talking "in general" and not probably referring to this case, absolutely ! but I'll agree with you completely. thx a lot. I'd say we could blame DX7 and D50 at least partially for that. Them
and the evolution of pop taste. I cannot blame a DX/TX or D50 (D550) in any way,- I own both in addition and Ive found out in countless studiosessions, a Xpander plus a DX is a great combo,- also for layering stuff. The D50/550 is a different beast, but one of the Roland synths worth to keep, especially if you have a Musitrinics speed kit w/ memory expansion built in. (x) Newsflash! The keyboard tech replaced every rotary pot with a
similar part and all he had to do was reverse the connection as the
spare parts weren't identical to originals. The result: they all work
now. If anyone needs further info, let me know and I'll ask dirty
details. The feel is similar, but a bit quieter. No more "tr.. tr..
rrr... RRRrrr" whilst editing. The bonus: the pots have a switch
built-in, so one could override the push buttons under the display as
well if wanted and replace them with a nice led thingy or... never
mind. :-) Oh,- thats a very interesting info,- may I ask for more details and type/specs of this rotary replacements as well as instructions for replacing ? He was also pretty confident he could replace the displays with an
updated part of sorts, but it would lose the "Xpander/Matrix" style.
Instead, it would be and LCD (if I remember correctly) and
black/white. Again, don't blame me for not asking details before
writing. Any details would be pretty welcome if possible. I agree, my approach is because of my personal preferences: I like to
"feel" the synth. No question, thats anyones preference, also mine. Thats why I called using software a workaround. The machine is not unusable w/ malfunctioning switches and pots this way and until recovery is reality.
b.t.w.,- if someone needs processors for Xpander/Matrix-12,- youll
find em in Matrix-1000s (and eventually Matrix-6,- Im not sure). As far as I know, there are six CEM3396 IC chips inside. I don't
remember Xpander using those - is there something I should know?
Dont misunderstand processor and chip. The IBM processors used in a Xpander /Matrix-12 are also rare. THIS is what you find also in a Matrix 1000. Thanks Karl, now I know it and keep my Matrix-1000. It was just only a example of searching and finding cheaper synths to pull components for the expensive flagships. So, theres not always a need to buy a 2nd identical model of a damaged synth for parts,- but this still depends on the wanted part(s). I didnt investigate up to now, but Im sure there were other synths of other manufacturers using CEM3374 as OSCs. Maybe this is a chance to look for if this type of chip is urgently needed.
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Hi and thanks for the links. I happen to know the deep mud I'm in and so I just recently bought two Xpanders (one beyond repairs, the other should be fine), just to find out whether there's anything worth scavenging. Again, I'll let you know if and what. Up to now, I never had a blown 3374 in my Xpander,- but I?m on the
waitlist for 3374 @vintage planet for years and like many others are.
CEM3372 are much easier to find. I've heard people tell this about their 3374s, but after cross-checking I really have to admit that one of them is really broken. The other one's outputting triangle wave minor third higher than expected, so I cannot count that as "gone", not yet, at least. Something else could be wrong as well, but we're still doing testing and concentrating on the physical issues. The case:
Buying vintage gear @ebay, you always buy "private" and because of being
"vintage" w/ no warranty and no return.
You agree on this if you bid ! It didn't go like that. I first asked a few questions very carefully, as I wasn't on the holy pony for the first time. I've owned quite a few analog synths in my past and know what they can be like. Finding a pristine - mint, whatever - thing is about as rare as waking up in Mars. Nag nag, yadda yadda, boo hoo... (cont'd) If someone is doing this, he should be prepared for issues unless it?s
made evident the item is in working condition electronically (!!!). (cont'd)...which is what I was _told_, literally: "in 100% working condition". But there?s no guarantee w/ vintage gear, (tack)-switches and pots will
be without issues or the unit won?t blow up the next time you power it
up after arrival. I've got a few analog modulars that are about as moody as a difficult teenager after two beers. I have a faint feeling the behaviour you just described is remotely familiar. I just wouldn't sell any of those as "trouble-free" or "perfectly functioning". :-D I'm not too keen on opening the case any more than this. What's my problem shouldn't poison the rest of you, even though I was the cat that brought the carcass in. Sorry for bad feelings, everyone, but I'll keep the lid on from now on. Refurbishing a Xpander or a Matrix-12 means a big time investment in
search for all the available parts, investing money for the parts and
doing all the work yourself if you have the technical skills and own the
tools necessary. Well, I'm relatively good at troubleshooting, the other guys do the dirty work since I'm about as handy as a paralyzed baboon could ever be. I'm pretty confident we'll sort this out with some amount of time. And money. Argh. :-/ The goal is no longer to refurbish, but reconstruct and improve, I'd say. See (x) below. Noone can expect to buy a piece of gear which cost over 10.000.- bucks
in the past for 2.000 - 3.000 $ now and it?s like new,- that?s stupid. That wasn't the price I paid, not even close, I happened to pay quite a lot more. Obviously, though, you're talking "in general" and not probably referring to this case, but I'll agree with you completely. The manufacturing of dyno-synths like Matrix-12 and Prophet 10 / T-8
killed small companies like Oberheim and Sequential in the past because
of the costs and the sales. I'd say we could blame DX7 and D50 at least partially for that. Them and the evolution of pop taste. These are the CEM3374, the rotarys and the displays.
Also, I?m not sure about the switches and numeric key pad.
Actually, I doubt the display replacement of Steve Lenham will appear
near future. (x) Newsflash! The keyboard tech replaced every rotary pot with a similar part and all he had to do was reverse the connection as the spare parts weren't identical to originals. The result: they all work now. If anyone needs further info, let me know and I'll ask dirty details. The feel is similar, but a bit quieter. No more "tr.. tr.. rrr... RRRrrr" whilst editing. The bonus: the pots have a switch built-in, so one could override the push buttons under the display as well if wanted and replace them with a nice led thingy or... never mind. :-) He was also pretty confident he could replace the displays with an updated part of sorts, but it would lose the "Xpander/Matrix" style. Instead, it would be and LCD (if I remember correctly) and black/white. Again, don't blame me for not asking details before writing. (Waiting for a FrankenMatrix to resurrect.) Switches and rotarys as well as displays are 2nd row IMO,- the
workaround is to use bankloader and editing software to use a
electronically working machine in the studio. I agree, my approach is because of my personal preferences: I like to "feel" the synth. b.t.w.,- if someone needs processors for Xpander/Matrix-12,- you?ll find
?em in Matrix-1000s (and eventually Matrix-6,- I?m not sure). As far as I know, there are six CEM3396 IC chips inside. I don't remember Xpander using those - is there something I should know?
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