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Friends,

My club has a requirement for a tram that just goes back and forth
between it's terminal track and staging/storage. We want this to be
automatically controled. There are several kits for doing just this on
the market, but all I have found are DC based. As this track is
connected with the general layout, we would prefer a DCC solution, but
this seems to require a computer, a computer interface, and track
detectors.

My question is: Is there a simpler solution with DCC? What's the
cheapest DCC-based solution (without building your own hardware or
sofware)?

Friends,

My club has a requirement for a tram that just goes back and forth
between it's terminal track and staging/storage. We want this to be
automatically controled. There are several kits for doing just this on
the market, but all I have found are DC based. As this track is
connected with the general layout, we would prefer a DCC solution, but
this seems to require a computer, a computer interface, and track
detectors.

My question is: Is there a simpler solution with DCC? What's the
cheapest DCC-based solution (without building your own hardware or
sofware)?

Nothing is simpler or more cost effective than a DC solution.

DCC has layout automation software for DCC.



is an example of such software.

But you will need a computer, a computer interface to the DCC system,
sensors in the track (DC will need that too) and do some programming.

Definitely more expensive and requires a computer running to make it
happen. The DC solution would be hands off easy to setup and forget.

Some thoughts...

Generally mixing DC and DCC is not recommended by anyone. I can result
in destruction of a booster, DC throttle or both if both power sources
connect to each other. (DCC is a form of AC power) If you must run DC,
the recommendation is that one have a master switch that toggle the
whole layout between DC or DCC but NEVER both at the same time. Many
layouts have done this successfully. There was an article about how one
club did it in MR magazine.

If you MUST have DC and DCC present, there are some recommended rules.

1) Isolate at least a 12: section of track the goes between the DC power
section of the layout and the DCC powered portion of the layout. A no
mans land with not power. Using a momentary center off switch, you
would toggle the power of the dead section of track to DC or DCC
depending on which side of the dead section of track you need to get
power from. The key is momentary switch. A standard toggle will no be
safe for you will forget to turn it off.

2) Another option to isolate the approach track from the DCC portion of
the layout and power it through a Lenz LT100.



The LT100 is connected to your DC power pack output. It monitors for
signs of DCC and will instantly disconnect the DC power pack from the
track protecting both system.

I should say that running a locomotive from DC section of track to a DCC
section of track can lead to a runaway locomotive. Most decoder make a
decision on first power up to run in DCC or DC mode. As long as power
is maintained, that decision remains true. So if the decoder see DCC
power after while it has been running in DC mode, the decoder will not
recognize the DCC and assume the DCC is nothing more than full throttle
DC power and vrooom.....

The reverse DCC to DC is less predictable. The engine may simple stop
and not run OR switch to DC mode with a very erratic reaction in the
process.

Part of the randomness to all this is the nature of an engine rolling on
track with the corresponding momentary loss of power. Dirt, oxidation,
clean wheel, number of wheel pickups and other such factor play into the
experience.


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Linear Technology
Power Supply & Battery Charger Applications Engineer/Manager
---------------------------------------------------------
Model Railroad Club and NMRA DCC presentations are at:

--------------------------------------------------------
Audio Enthusiast (Love SAE equipment)

----------------------------------------------------------

At 11:18 2005-07-01 -0700, Mark Gurries wrote:

Friends,

My club has a requirement for a tram that just goes back and forth
between it's terminal track and staging/storage. We want this to be
automatically controled. There are several kits for doing just this on
the market, but all I have found are DC based. As this track is
connected with the general layout, we would prefer a DCC solution, but
this seems to require a computer, a computer interface, and track
detectors.

My question is: Is there a simpler solution with DCC? What's the
cheapest DCC-based solution (without building your own hardware or
sofware)?

Nothing is simpler or more cost effective than a DC solution.

DCC has layout automation software for DCC.

<>

is an example of such software.

But you will need a computer, a computer interface to the DCC system,
sensors in the track (DC will need that too) and do some programming.

Definitely more expensive and requires a computer running to make it
happen. The DC solution would be hands off easy to setup and forget.

That's what I suspected, thanks for confirming.

Some thoughts...

Generally mixing DC and DCC is not recommended by anyone. I can result
in destruction of a booster, DC throttle or both if both power sources
connect to each other. (DCC is a form of AC power) If you must run DC,
the recommendation is that one have a master switch that toggle the
whole layout between DC or DCC but NEVER both at the same time. Many
layouts have done this successfully. There was an article about how one
club did it in MR magazine.

If you MUST have DC and DCC present, there are some recommended rules.

1) Isolate at least a 12: section of track the goes between the DC power
section of the layout and the DCC powered portion of the layout. A no
mans land with not power. Using a momentary center off switch, you
would toggle the power of the dead section of track to DC or DCC
depending on which side of the dead section of track you need to get
power from. The key is momentary switch. A standard toggle will no be
safe for you will forget to turn it off.

That solution is something like what I had in mind. We don't want any
rolling stock straying into the way of the automatic tram, anyway.

Thanks for a comprehensive answer.

Yours,
Jan

Not sure if you are interested in DC control. Keeping all the warnings Mark
has described about mixing DC and DCC on the track level in mind. This
system will only work with DC:


It has up to 8 station sensors (for me Hall-Effect sensors) that simply
'close' when the Trolley is over them. You put a small magnet on the bottom
of your Trolley and the controller can start and stop at any station. It can
change position of up to 4 twin-coil switch machines, or 4 slow-motion
switch machines.

I have one setup on my layout with 4 switch tracks and 8 station sensors. It
drives from any point to any point using a scripting-like table of events.
You just say "Drive East at 40%", "Wait For Station A", "Stop for 5
seconds", "Throw Turnout 2", "Drive West at 50%", "Wait for Station B",
"Stop for 25 Seconds", etc... This would be considered a "ROUTE". You can
create many "ROUTES" and then build them up into a "SCHEDULE" so that the
movements are not just a "BUMP AND REVERSE" type of controller.

Having an automatic line is actually pretty cool because it really does run
itself. It doesn't use a computer once you have the "ROUTES" set. When you
power it on, it just starts the "SCHEDULE" you have stored. The programming
of the "ROUTES" is done with a PC, but after that, no PC needed.


This is my product, so sorry for the plug, since you didn't get any better
answers, I though you might appreciate this.

Bob Scheffler
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PRICOM Design
www.pricom.com

At 13:05 2005-07-01 -0600, Robert Scheffler wrote:

Not sure if you are interested in DC control. Keeping all the warnings Mark
has described about mixing DC and DCC on the track level in mind. This
system will only work with DC:
<>

It has up to 8 station sensors (for me Hall-Effect sensors) that simply
'close' when the Trolley is over them. You put a small magnet on the bottom
of your Trolley and the controller can start and stop at any station. It can
change position of up to 4 twin-coil switch machines, or 4 slow-motion
switch machines.

I have one setup on my layout with 4 switch tracks and 8 station sensors. It
drives from any point to any point using a scripting-like table of events.
You just say "Drive East at 40%", "Wait For Station A", "Stop for 5
seconds", "Throw Turnout 2", "Drive West at 50%", "Wait for Station B",
"Stop for 25 Seconds", etc... This would be considered a "ROUTE". You can
create many "ROUTES" and then build them up into a "SCHEDULE" so that the
movements are not just a "BUMP AND REVERSE" type of controller.

Having an automatic line is actually pretty cool because it really does run
itself. It doesn't use a computer once you have the "ROUTES" set. When you
power it on, it just starts the "SCHEDULE" you have stored. The programming
of the "ROUTES" is done with a PC, but after that, no PC needed.


This is my product, so sorry for the plug, since you didn't get any better
answers, I though you might appreciate this.

No problem. I've added it to the solutions worth considering ;-) Do your
system feature slow starts and stops?

Your homepage say you're considering a DCC version. As we're using a Lenz
system, using Loconet is a non-starter.

/Jan

Jan,

No problem. I've added it to the solutions worth considering ;-)

Glad to hear it. We're pretty flexible for updates and features. The
firmware running now hasn't changed in several months. It's about due for a
update. If you have any features or functions that seem to be lacking,
please let me know.

Do your system feature slow starts and stops?

At the moment, it just sends a 'kick' to get the motor moving when running
at slow speed. Since it doesn't have any Back-EMF or way to detect what the
physical motor is doing, slow speed can be a bit tricky. It is really more
dependant on the mechanics of the trolley/loco. The Brill trolley shown in
my pictures is quite finicky at slow speeds. It has the factory motor. It
works very nice with a 'normal' motor, not the factory pancake in the Brill.
We could add a more flexible ramp or curve to get your motor stable at slow
speeds. This would take the form of 'settings' that you could 'tweak' for
your specific trolley, much the same as CV's in a mobile DCC decoder.

Your homepage say you're considering a DCC version.

Been considering it, but we have a much more aggressive plan for this that I
can't quite talk about yet, more like a universal throttle...

As we're using a Lenz system, using Loconet is a non-starter.

I understand and agree. I have NCE, Lenz, MRC, and Digitrax here, you are
right, committing to one is a non-starter for the others. Have a plan, but
still working on the solution.


I suppose that is about the limit for what we should talk about on-list, if
you have more questions or comments, best to send me off-list so I don't
offend anyone here. If anyone else has questions, please let me know!

Bob Scheffler
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.dcctester.com "Test all the data on your Rails!"

We're still considering a DCC solution, not in the least because of the
opprtunity of controling some accesories with the computer while you're at
it. Thus I have some followup question to this list:

1) What are the options for arranging feedback regarding stock position
with DCC? The basic scenario is still a tram going back and forth between
two locations.

2) We require a pair of working crossing gates, which need to do the
following: a) start ringing bells to warn traffic. b) start closing 10
seconds later c) grow silent when down d) open silently. An interesting
automation project. Any ideas?

/Jan

re - position fedback
2 or 3 possibilities:
1) Use electrical current detection at separate sections of the track from loco/tram occupation and/or each car. break track up into insulated detection blocks. Detect small current drain at each block. May require conductive axles on each car. Occupation detector output signals report back to master computer or local signal operating apparatus. Requires insulated rail gaps & electronic current detectors for each block.
2) Use magnetic passage scheme with magnetic reed switches at specific points along the track path. Tram and or cars have under carriage magnets to activate switches. Since switch activation would be momentary, master computer must keep track of which switch is being passed and direction from last detection. A "spot" location sensor like this is useful for a specific location, like crossing signal activation. Magnets attract 'metal dirt'.
3) Optical version of #2 with visible or infra-red light beam. May operate as across-track blockage type or reflection of beam off side or bottom of rolling stock. Simple opto-sensors use train shadowing of room light and therefore won't work in the dark. Some electronics required either way. Could also use ultrasonic detectors in similar fashion.
4) Use combination of scheme #1 with #2 or #3. Place optical sensors at both ends of electrical detection blocks. Diode couple signals to 'Wire-OR' the block end sensors with the output of the track current sensor for that block. Now block occupancy will be detected as loco with current draw has left block but rear of train is still occupying the block without need for conductive axles on rolling stock (!).

The above schemes will work with DC or DCC with proper choice of apparatus.

5) For DCC only, use Digitrax or other brand transponder idea. Requires: a) insulated track blocks with transponder type reciever wired to each block; b) transponder in each loco/tram or car to be detected; c) computer to gather transponder indications and keep track of train/tram locations. Available equipment is brand dependant.

6) Track current detectors also come in many flavors. Some work with DC, some only with DCC, some can do both. Some are isolated from track power, some not. Many have universal 'open collector' type outputs and can be used with 5V or 12V signaling. Some are 5V only. Be careful to pick the right one.

My choice is #4 with track current sensors and reflective type IR spot sensors.
Your automated tram application would be greatly simplified if you provided a reversing track loop at each end of the display rather than having the tram actually run in the opposite direction.

re - crossing signal activation
Your requirements are not too difficult. Requires 3 short block occupancy sensors at grade crossing to detect train approaching from either direction and to detect when it leaves the crossing island. Simple logic and timers do the rest. If you have computer, use that to perform logic and provide bell sound. (Bell doesn't remain ON when gate is down??). Check Dallee electronics (and others) for commercial equipment. A couple of '555 timers cam be made to do all without a computer. See future article in Clear Block.

DonV

Typically you need to find the software first and then find the hardware
that will allow this to work. What you ask for any of the high end DCC
system will work in this application. Occupancy detectors can detect
the tram at the end of the lines, which is read by the computer over a
feedback bus of some kind which will then change the direction of the
tram. Back and forth forever.

As far as the specifics of the crossing sound and motion, that a
seperate system typically independent of the DCC system.

Hope this helps.

We're still considering a DCC solution, not in the least because of the
opprtunity of controling some accesories with the computer while you're

at

it. Thus I have some followup question to this list:

1) What are the options for arranging feedback regarding stock position
with DCC? The basic scenario is still a tram going back and forth

between

two locations.

2) We require a pair of working crossing gates, which need to do the
following: a) start ringing bells to warn traffic. b) start closing 10
seconds later c) grow silent when down d) open silently. An interesting
automation project. Any ideas?

/Jan

At 11:18 2005-07-01 -0700, Mark Gurries wrote:

Friends,

My club has a requirement for a tram that just goes back and forth
between it's terminal track and staging/storage. We want this to be
automatically controled. There are several kits for doing just this

on

the market, but all I have found are DC based. As this track is
connected with the general layout, we would prefer a DCC solution,

but

this seems to require a computer, a computer interface, and track
detectors.

My question is: Is there a simpler solution with DCC? What's the
cheapest DCC-based solution (without building your own hardware or
sofware)?

Nothing is simpler or more cost effective than a DC solution.

DCC has layout automation software for DCC.

<>

is an example of such software.

But you will need a computer, a computer interface to the DCC system,
sensors in the track (DC will need that too) and do some programming.

Definitely more expensive and requires a computer running to make it
happen. The DC solution would be hands off easy to setup and forget.

Some thoughts...

Generally mixing DC and DCC is not recommended by anyone. I can

result

in destruction of a booster, DC throttle or both if both power sources
connect to each other. (DCC is a form of AC power) If you must run

DC,

the recommendation is that one have a master switch that toggle the
whole layout between DC or DCC but NEVER both at the same time. Many
layouts have done this successfully. There was an article about how

one

club did it in MR magazine.

If you MUST have DC and DCC present, there are some recommended rules.

1) Isolate at least a 12: section of track the goes between the DC

power

section of the layout and the DCC powered portion of the layout. A no
mans land with not power. Using a momentary center off switch, you
would toggle the power of the dead section of track to DC or DCC
depending on which side of the dead section of track you need to get
power from. The key is momentary switch. A standard toggle will no

be

safe for you will forget to turn it off.

2) Another option to isolate the approach track from the DCC portion

of

the layout and power it through a Lenz LT100.

<>

products/modules/index.htm

The LT100 is connected to your DC power pack output. It monitors for
signs of DCC and will instantly disconnect the DC power pack from the
track protecting both system.

I should say that running a locomotive from DC section of track to a

DCC

section of track can lead to a runaway locomotive. Most decoder make

a

decision on first power up to run in DCC or DC mode. As long as power
is maintained, that decision remains true. So if the decoder see DCC
power after while it has been running in DC mode, the decoder will not
recognize the DCC and assume the DCC is nothing more than full

throttle

DC power and vrooom.....

The reverse DCC to DC is less predictable. The engine may simple stop
and not run OR switch to DC mode with a very erratic reaction in the
process.

Part of the randomness to all this is the nature of an engine rolling

on

track with the corresponding momentary loss of power. Dirt,

oxidation,

clean wheel, number of wheel pickups and other such factor play into

the

experience.


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Linear Technology
Power Supply & Battery Charger Applications Engineer/Manager
---------------------------------------------------------
Model Railroad Club and NMRA DCC presentations are at:
<>.

siliconvalleylines.com/index.html

--------------------------------------------------------
Audio Enthusiast (Love SAE equipment)
<>

aboutme/gurriesm/

----------------------------------------------------------




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Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Linear Technology
Power Supply & Battery Charger Applications Engineer/Manager
---------------------------------------------------------
Model Railroad Club and NMRA DCC presentations are at:

--------------------------------------------------------
Audio Enthusiast (Love SAE equipment)

----------------------------------------------------------

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "Jan Frelin" <jan.frelin@l...>
wrote:

Friends,

My club has a requirement for a tram that just goes back and forth
between it's terminal track and staging/storage.

Jan,

I have an Idea to share, but first I would like to stress that I am
an amateur and no portion of what follows has been tested. The only
hardware involved is an auto-reverser. Basically you create two
insulated track sections connected to your existing track. The
middle section is connected to the autoreverse and is the route
traveled by your tram. The outer portions( an end peice and the
connection to your layout) are connected to your DCC but wired for
opposite polarity. A DC engine placed in the middle section will
travel to each insulated joint where it will trigger the AR. A DC
engine will only do this facing one direction so you may have to
change polarity of the whole she-bang if you want the loco facing a
particular way. When the tram reverses it will be abrupt and the
track will be @12vdc all the time so it will basically be running
full throttle. This whole set up would theoretically work with a DCC
loco, then you would have speed control, but... I have no idea how
decoders react to having their polarity abruptly changed.

Hopefully I have clearly conveyed the concept. I'd like to hear
form the voice of experience on this as I plan to incorporate it
into my layout in the next few months.

good luck,
mike

Mike,

I'm not sure what you are suggesting. DCC is a form of AC. No
simple hardware solution exists for auto reversing a DCC locomotive.

I had a DC locomotive running around the top of my office cubical.
I used a timer and a relay to reverse the polarity of the track to
shuttle the locomotive back and forth. I used diodes at the ends of
the track that stopped the DC locomotive until the timer reversed
the polarity through the relay.

Allan




--- In WiringForDCC@..., "hinman_michael"
<hinman_michael@y...> wrote:

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "Jan Frelin"

<jan.frelin@l...>

wrote:

Friends,

My club has a requirement for a tram that just goes back and

forth

between it's terminal track and staging/storage.

Jan,

I have an Idea to share, but first I would like to stress that I

am

an amateur and no portion of what follows has been tested. The

only

hardware involved is an auto-reverser. Basically you create two
insulated track sections connected to your existing track. The
middle section is connected to the autoreverse and is the route
traveled by your tram. The outer portions( an end peice and the
connection to your layout) are connected to your DCC but wired for
opposite polarity. A DC engine placed in the middle section will
travel to each insulated joint where it will trigger the AR. A DC
engine will only do this facing one direction so you may have to
change polarity of the whole she-bang if you want the loco facing

a

particular way. When the tram reverses it will be abrupt and the
track will be @12vdc all the time so it will basically be running
full throttle. This whole set up would theoretically work with a

DCC

loco, then you would have speed control, but... I have no idea how
decoders react to having their polarity abruptly changed.

Hopefully I have clearly conveyed the concept. I'd like to hear
form the voice of experience on this as I plan to incorporate it
into my layout in the next few months.

good luck,
mike