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Refer to 101 Track Plans? For Model Railroaders by Linn H. Wescott page 31. Plan #56 Dayton & Northern RR with 3 loops, 32", 30" and 28" radiuses. 14 guage buss and 22 guage feeders.? Each loop is a power district. Layout is NCE DCC.?
I eliminated the round house and turntable and added sidings similar to those on other end of layout. Sidings on both ends are coming off the inner 28" radius .??
My concern is do I need to attach buss wires to those sidings or do I rely on the switches to provide the power??
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Need buss wires to sidings. ?Can’t rely on turnout power. Bill D
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On Jun 1, 2024, at 12:43?PM, 3CURLY3 via groups.io <3CURLY3@...> wrote:
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Refer to 101 Track Plans? For Model Railroaders by Linn H. Wescott page 31. Plan #56 Dayton & Northern RR with 3 loops, 32", 30" and 28" radiuses. 14 guage buss and 22 guage feeders.? Each loop is a power district. Layout is NCE DCC.?
I eliminated the round house and turntable and added sidings similar to those on other end of layout. Sidings on both ends are coming off the inner 28" radius .??
My concern is do I need to attach buss wires to those sidings or do I rely on the switches to provide the power??
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On 06/01/2024 12:31 PM CDT D B <1932mgj2@...> wrote:
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Need buss wires to sidings. ?Can’t rely on turnout power.
Bill D
N&W Steam Only
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On Jun 1, 2024, at 12:43?PM, 3CURLY3 via groups.io <3CURLY3@...> wrote:
Refer to 101 Track Plans? For Model Railroaders by Linn H. Wescott page 31. Plan #56 Dayton & Northern RR with 3 loops, 32", 30" and 28" radiuses. 14 guage buss and 22 guage feeders.? Each loop is a power district. Layout is NCE DCC.?
I eliminated the round house and turntable and added sidings similar to those on other end of layout. Sidings on both ends are coming off the inner 28" radius .??
My concern is do I need to attach buss wires to those sidings or do I rely on the switches to provide the power??
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If your frogs are hot-wired, then they will carry currents to the siding. As long as the siding tracks are soldered to the frog, then the siding should be powered just fine. Granted that if the siding is looooong, then you need droppers just like any track. Soldered joints will carry the current down that siding for a reasonable length.
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On Jun 1, 2024, at 10:36?AM, 3CURLY3 via groups.io <3CURLY3@...> wrote:
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Ok. Thanks?
On 06/01/2024 12:31 PM CDT D B <1932mgj2@...> wrote:
?
?
Need buss wires to sidings. ?Can’t rely on turnout power.
Bill D
N&W Steam Only
?
On Jun 1, 2024, at 12:43?PM, 3CURLY3 via groups.io <3CURLY3@...> wrote:
Refer to 101 Track Plans? For Model Railroaders by Linn H. Wescott page 31. Plan #56 Dayton & Northern RR with 3 loops, 32", 30" and 28" radiuses. 14 guage buss and 22 guage feeders.? Each loop is a power district. Layout is NCE DCC.?
I eliminated the round house and turntable and added sidings similar to those on other end of layout. Sidings on both ends are coming off the inner 28" radius .??
My concern is do I need to attach buss wires to those sidings or do I rely on the switches to provide the power??
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I'll use the dropper method.?
Since the droppers will be longer, do I need a different wire guage than 22? Is there a list of different guages for different lengths since I'll have different lengths??
I'm new to all this and don't want to have (minimize) those "do overs".?
Thanks.??
On 06/01/2024 7:58 PM CDT Tom O'Hara <tomohara5@...> wrote:
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If your frogs are hot-wired, then they will carry currents to the siding. As long as the siding tracks are soldered to the frog, then the siding should be powered just fine. Granted that if the siding is looooong, then you need droppers just like any track. Soldered joints will carry the current down that siding for a reasonable length.
... Tom
On Jun 1, 2024, at 10:36?AM, 3CURLY3 via groups.io <3CURLY3@...> wrote:
Ok. Thanks?
On 06/01/2024 12:31 PM CDT D B <1932mgj2@...> wrote:
?
?
Need buss wires to sidings. ?Can’t rely on turnout power.
Bill D
N&W Steam Only
?
On Jun 1, 2024, at 12:43?PM, 3CURLY3 via groups.io <3CURLY3@...> wrote:
Refer to 101 Track Plans? For Model Railroaders by Linn H. Wescott page 31. Plan #56 Dayton & Northern RR with 3 loops, 32", 30" and 28" radiuses. 14 guage buss and 22 guage feeders.? Each loop is a power district. Layout is NCE DCC.?
I eliminated the round house and turntable and added sidings similar to those on other end of layout. Sidings on both ends are coming off the inner 28" radius .??
My concern is do I need to attach buss wires to those sidings or do I rely on the switches to provide the power??
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Go to my website at: ?
I conducted a test and determined the maximum length for each feeder size.
If you are new to this, you should check out the rest of my website.? Also, my book will be out in August.
Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC
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Hi,
? My "best practice" is to isolate all 3 legs of the turnouts (double gaps) and
then power the turnout and the tracks feeding off of it using separate power
bus and feeders.
? The 'approaches' to the turnouts has been extended to the clearance
points by soldering on short sections of track to the two diverging legs
before the double gaps.
? Whether or not those 3 track buses are tied together below the layout
depends upon whether or not there is a power district change (different
DCC circuit breakers?).
? All my track power bus is done with 14 gauge wire (works well with the DCC
Specialties circuit breakers) and I use 22 gauge feeders up to the track.? Ye.? s,
my track bus is all twisted using regular 14 gauge house wire.
? But my feeders are not twisted.? This allows me to go back and add occupancy
detection if/where needed.? Including occupancy of the turnouts separate
from the rest of the track.
? The frogs of my turnouts are powered thru the tortoise contacts.? My
turnouts are all Peco.
? My plan is to use LCC for occupancy - in staging but not for the visible
layout.? LCC will also be used to determine if there is a train on a turnout
and prevent it from being thrown under the train.? Not 100% fool proof
since, at this time, I do not intend to put resistor wheelsets under all my
cars.
? YMMV - this is "fussy (takes more time), but works and is worth it" ... for me.?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim in the PNW
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? ... Oh, yes - every physical piece of rail has a soldered track feeder ...
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On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 11:33 AM, Jim Betz wrote:
... Oh, yes - every physical piece of rail has a soldered track feeder ...
As someone who has worked on a working layout that was built years ago, this is critical. Your rail joiners will eventually fail and will fail faster if you paint the track. (Which really helps the looks of your layout!) We lost about 15 feet of a busy mainline one night because a rail joiner failed. It turned over 100 feet of track into "local traffic only" until it was fixed. Puckdropper
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? ... in addition to what Allan posted - one thing most guys don't seem to?
? ? ?understand is that the feeder wires from the layout to the bus does not
? ? ?have to be all one gauge.??
? If you -need- truly long feeders you can use a short length of a smaller gauge
to come up thru the benchwork (usually less than 12") and then -solder- that to
larger gauge wire for the rest of the run to the bus.
? Please note that I used "-need-" for the feeder length.? ? My best practice wiring
methods will run a twisted track block bus pair "right under the track" and
eliminate the need for long feeders.
? TEST for when you need to change wire gauge of your feeders!
? Set up a short length of track (3' of flex?) and solder different lengths of feeder
wires (all the same gauge) to both rails and connect it to your bus.? Then power it
with DCC and measure the voltage at the rails for the different lengths.? I would
start with lengths of 1', 2', 3', 6', and 12'.
? The only way I'd trust the measurements would be with an RRamp meter - but
that is a 'choice' that I made a long time ago and there are other meters that
will be fine for this test.? Put some kind of 'load' on the test track - perhaps
one of two of your 'typical' locos?? Sitting idle or running (slipping)?
? I have found that 22 or 26 gauge feeders are easier to get properly soldered to
the track.? I have used feeders as large as 18 and even a couple of 16 gauge -
but I still connect them within 12" of the twisted 14 gauge track block wires.
? Again - these are my methods and you should do what you think works.? My
litmus test is whether or not there is any voltage difference between all of
the layout of more than .1 or .2 volts - under load and measuring the actual
voltage at the track with an RRamp meter ... from the lowest voltage?
anywhere on the layout to the highest.? YMMV.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim in the PNW
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I would like to suggest Sanchem No-Ox-Id A grease for rail joiners instead of soldering.? This grease was designed to prevent oxidation and keep contaminants out of electrical connections.? It has worked for generations of electricians in this capacity.?
Make sure your rail? joining area is clean.? Coat the joiners in the grease and attach the rails.? It is very unlikely that a track joined this way will have a connection failure.
The number of drops can be significantly reduced in this way.? Note you still need enough to avoid excessive voltage drops.
Best Regards,
Ken Harstine
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Ken,
? Have you tested Sanchem on "joiners in flex track - around curves"?? My experience is that even
relatively short sections of flex track expand and contract enough to "loosen" rail joiners to the
point of ending up with unpowered rail.
? If you have - what brands of flex track?? And what radius curves?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim in the PNW
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I may have missed an earlier part of this discussion, but I have always thought that each piece of rail should have a feeder And don’t rely on joiners for Electrical feed
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On Jun 4, 2024, at 10:55?AM, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:
?Ken,
? Have you tested Sanchem on "joiners in flex track - around curves"?? My experience is that even
relatively short sections of flex track expand and contract enough to "loosen" rail joiners to the
point of ending up with unpowered rail.
? If you have - what brands of flex track?? And what radius curves?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim in the PNW
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Agree with you John but there are lots of ways to success and ones environmental conditions may impact.
I have over 1,000 feet of track with feeders on every piece or small pieces have soldered joiners. ?No issues or voltage drops when running multiple trains, ?sometimes 12+ engines running at a time.
I will always feeder or solder…
, plz pardon the spelling! Jim Zarnick
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On Jun 5, 2024, at 2:24?AM, John Bishop via groups.io <snboy2001@...> wrote:
? I may have missed an earlier part of this discussion, but I have always thought that each piece of rail should have a feeder And don’t rely on joiners for Electrical feed On Jun 4, 2024, at 10:55?AM, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:
?Ken,
? Have you tested Sanchem on "joiners in flex track - around curves"?? My experience is that even
relatively short sections of flex track expand and contract enough to "loosen" rail joiners to the
point of ending up with unpowered rail.
? If you have - what brands of flex track?? And what radius curves?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim in the PNW
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You are right, John.? Every piece of track should be soldered to something.? Normally that is through feeders to the track bus.? Some people solder the joiners on their curves together.? That's okay, too.
Allan
Wiring for DCC
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I agree, we solder drops every three feet (to match flex track lengths) or shorter. Nothing is going to outlast solder connections over time. If we have a short section (less than three feet), the rail joiners are soldered together. I am a big fan of No-Ox for maintaining clean rail, but definitely not as a solder substitute.
Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum
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There are some people who prefer to use as few feeders as possible. Maybe they can't get the feeder attached without melting the ties. Rather than get help (Nashville, TN, I'm hireable), they just avoid the problem.
One understandable application for as few feeders as possible is track plans that change often. I did that as a kid, and feeders would just get in the way. I'd pull up all the track and try something new. Great fun. :)
If you are melting ties, you're keeping heat on the rail for much too long. Clean the rail with a fiberglass scratch brush, apply flux and use a quality iron with a tip sized for the rail. You want everything clean so you can get in and out fast. Clean your iron by wiping the tip with a bit of damp paper towel or a damp sponge just before you touch the tip to the rail.
Puckdropper
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On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 01:24 AM, John Bishop wrote:
I may have missed an earlier part of this discussion, but I have always
thought that each piece of rail should have a feeder And don’t rely on
joiners for Electrical feed
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Good points. One addendum to soldering that might be controversial, after doing the prep you recommend - have a small blob of solder on the tip before touching the rail. This is counter to soldering larger pieces where you melt the solder
with the material to ensure it's hot enough and get good coverage on the material. I think when soldering rail the very small size of the material and the amount of contact the soldering tip can make on it, is problematic. With this method the blob of solder
maximizes heat transfer to the material. Using a blob size that is all the solder necessary, then putting the fluxed wire on the blob and tip onto the wire, almost instantaneously heated, melted and done. So two stages, getting the solder onto the rail
with good adhesion, then melting the wire into the solder. I've been using this method to put the wire on the bottom of the rail, between ties. About a third of the solder surface as when I did it in the side of the rail and totally hidden.
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There are some people who prefer to use as few feeders as possible. Maybe they can't get the feeder attached without melting the ties. Rather than get help (Nashville, TN, I'm hireable), they just avoid the problem.
One understandable application for as few feeders as possible is track plans that change often.? I did that as a kid, and feeders would just get in the way.? I'd pull up all the track and try something new.? Great fun. :)
If you are melting ties, you're keeping heat on the rail for much too long.? Clean the rail with a fiberglass scratch brush, apply flux and use a quality iron with a tip sized for the rail.? You want everything clean so you can get in and out fast.? Clean your
iron by wiping the tip with a bit of damp paper towel or a damp sponge just before you touch the tip to the rail.
Puckdropper
On Wed, Jun? 5, 2024 at 01:24 AM, John Bishop wrote:
>
> I may have missed an earlier part of this discussion, but I have always
> thought that each piece of rail should have a feeder And don’t rely on
> joiners for Electrical feed
>
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I usually use a heat sink (such as spring loaded closed tweezers) as well on the rail next to the soldering point to keep the plastic ties intact.
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I prefer soldering two 3’ rail sections together with rail joiners and adding a wire drop at that point. This provides a drop every 6’ apart, but effectively, no section of rail is more than 3’ from a wire drop. Also, provide drops as needed to any other rail accessory such as turnouts, crossings, etc., and twisted main bus wire under the layout as nearly aligned as possible with mainline rails.
Gary Chudzinski?
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Jim Betz
Ken Harstine
Phil Friday