Re: AR Vs Tortoise to power frog
Keep-a-lives are a ¡°Band-Aid¡± for improperly maintained locos and track.
My two cents. ?
Paul O
On Sunday, May 2, 2021, 12:57:07 PM EDT, Tom O'Hara <tomohara5@...> wrote:
Yep to all of that. I use the TCS KA 1s or 2s exclusively because they give me the shortest time. it's still more than I need. When I do an install, I always make sure the client knows what he's getting in terms of what you just said. On the other hand, I still throw my turnouts with fascia-mounted switches or with the throttle. We tend to use the technology that is tuned to our operating modes.
...Tom
On Sun, May 2, 2021 at 9:28 AM Jim Betz < jimbetz@...> wrote: Tom,
? Yes, they both "work" ... that's the problem.? By the time the AR has thrown the
turnout (due to detecting the approach of the loco - a short) the keep alive
has run the loco far enough to derail (before the turnout has completed the
realignment).? It's the "catch-22" of keep alives ... they aren't meant to keep
the loco running when there is a real short - only when the loco looses?
power for just a bit (dirty wheels/track) ... but they do and so you still have
to line your turnouts ahead of your train.??
? And, specific to running around a reversing loop, there isn't any device
that I know of that allows you to do that in a "fire and forget" method.? IF
you always ran the train the same direction and you left a long (1 foot or
more?) enough approach to the turnout and your turnouts completed?
changing direction before the keep alive got the loco all the way to the
derailing point ... then it would work.? Of course, that would use up some
of the track in the reversing section.? Do we need that last 2 car lengths
in the reversing section ... possibly not - most guys would say "yes".
The other gotcha in this method is that if you don't stop the train before
it crosses into the point where it is detected ... you can't have the train
"stored" and run another train into the loop - because it will cause a
short.? Many (most?) reversing sections are actually more than one
track in the loop in order to store more than one train at a time.
? As I've already said - there just isn't an "automated reversing loop"
that works for all situations.? ?
? Some/many/most of the mfgrs of decoders are -finally- including a?
setting (CV) that allows you to control how long the keep alive will
keep the loco running.
? I, for one, simply don't understand why the keep alives have to?
have such large storage capacities.? There has to be a better
design for the keep alive itself that makes it work for dirty track
for "any" decoder (without a CV in the decoder).
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim
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Re: AR Vs Tortoise to power frog
Yep to all of that. I use the TCS KA 1s or 2s exclusively because they give me the shortest time. it's still more than I need. When I do an install, I always make sure the client knows what he's getting in terms of what you just said. On the other hand, I still throw my turnouts with fascia-mounted switches or with the throttle. We tend to use the technology that is tuned to our operating modes.
...Tom
On Sun, May 2, 2021 at 9:28 AM Jim Betz < jimbetz@...> wrote: Tom,
? Yes, they both "work" ... that's the problem.? By the time the AR has thrown the
turnout (due to detecting the approach of the loco - a short) the keep alive
has run the loco far enough to derail (before the turnout has completed the
realignment).? It's the "catch-22" of keep alives ... they aren't meant to keep
the loco running when there is a real short - only when the loco looses?
power for just a bit (dirty wheels/track) ... but they do and so you still have
to line your turnouts ahead of your train.??
? And, specific to running around a reversing loop, there isn't any device
that I know of that allows you to do that in a "fire and forget" method.? IF
you always ran the train the same direction and you left a long (1 foot or
more?) enough approach to the turnout and your turnouts completed?
changing direction before the keep alive got the loco all the way to the
derailing point ... then it would work.? Of course, that would use up some
of the track in the reversing section.? Do we need that last 2 car lengths
in the reversing section ... possibly not - most guys would say "yes".
The other gotcha in this method is that if you don't stop the train before
it crosses into the point where it is detected ... you can't have the train
"stored" and run another train into the loop - because it will cause a
short.? Many (most?) reversing sections are actually more than one
track in the loop in order to store more than one train at a time.
? As I've already said - there just isn't an "automated reversing loop"
that works for all situations.? ?
? Some/many/most of the mfgrs of decoders are -finally- including a?
setting (CV) that allows you to control how long the keep alive will
keep the loco running.
? I, for one, simply don't understand why the keep alives have to?
have such large storage capacities.? There has to be a better
design for the keep alive itself that makes it work for dirty track
for "any" decoder (without a CV in the decoder).
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim
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Re: AR Vs Tortoise to power frog
Tom,
? Yes, they both "work" ... that's the problem.? By the time the AR has thrown the
turnout (due to detecting the approach of the loco - a short) the keep alive
has run the loco far enough to derail (before the turnout has completed the
realignment).? It's the "catch-22" of keep alives ... they aren't meant to keep
the loco running when there is a real short - only when the loco looses?
power for just a bit (dirty wheels/track) ... but they do and so you still have
to line your turnouts ahead of your train.??
? And, specific to running around a reversing loop, there isn't any device
that I know of that allows you to do that in a "fire and forget" method.? IF
you always ran the train the same direction and you left a long (1 foot or
more?) enough approach to the turnout and your turnouts completed?
changing direction before the keep alive got the loco all the way to the
derailing point ... then it would work.? Of course, that would use up some
of the track in the reversing section.? Do we need that last 2 car lengths
in the reversing section ... possibly not - most guys would say "yes".
The other gotcha in this method is that if you don't stop the train before
it crosses into the point where it is detected ... you can't have the train
"stored" and run another train into the loop - because it will cause a
short.? Many (most?) reversing sections are actually more than one
track in the loop in order to store more than one train at a time.
? As I've already said - there just isn't an "automated reversing loop"
that works for all situations.? ?
? Some/many/most of the mfgrs of decoders are -finally- including a?
setting (CV) that allows you to control how long the keep alive will
keep the loco running.
? I, for one, simply don't understand why the keep alives have to?
have such large storage capacities.? There has to be a better
design for the keep alive itself that makes it work for dirty track
for "any" decoder (without a CV in the decoder).
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim
|
Re: Need advice on wiring a cross-over and wye junction
I inserted images under Photos but also under Files ¨C I can delete one of them later. ? ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of David Penty
Sent: May 2, 2021 11:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Need advice on wiring a cross-over and wye junction? Thanks, Blair.?? Beyond the small ¡®Y¡¯ is a very short space and then a double crossover begins which is managed by 2 MRC auto-reversers.?? But, I¡¯ll put up the diagram, as is, unless you think I need to show more detail of the mainline. ? David G. Penty Penty Photographic Services myflyanddrive.com davidpenty@... (416) 574-4557 ( C ) (519) 855-6961 (R) ? ? David, You'll have to post the picture to the photos area here.? I saw your post on the Digitrax list.? You have two options: 1) The stretch from the crossover to the small 'y' could be fed via an autoreverser 2) The tail of the 'y' could be either fed via an autoreverser, or fed based on the position of the turnout (i.e. feed it from either leg, depending on the position of the turnout; that will require, likely, a relay or other electrical artifice). I can't tell you which is more appropriate, as I assume your diagram is part of a larger layout.? If the tail of the 'y' in fact connects elsewhere, then the electrical 'state of affairs' may be more complicated. Blair On 2021-05-02 9:10, David Penty wrote: Hello all I¡¯m new to the forum and still reading my way through Allan Gartner¡¯s Wiring for DCC documents ¨C excellent material.? However, I¡¯m looking for some specific guidance ? At the end of my mainline, I¡¯ve re-laid track.? In the attached diagram, the turntable was pre-existing, but all turnouts and crossover are new.? I¡¯m not certain if an auto reverser is needed and if so, where it would be located.? Can someone give me an idea of track wiring for the layout.? ??Peco suggest, on the package, that insulating all ends of the crossover shouldn¡¯t be needed but then provide an example of how to insulate the crossover on all sides.? I¡¯m running Digitrax, Code 100 HO with Peco turnouts. ? Incidentally, I got some gravel stuck in the Atlas turntable;? when I lifted the platter off, 2 pins with springs fell out.?? There appears to be no way to replace the pins/springs when you invert the platter to install it.? Anyone run into this issue? Thanks in advance for your assistance ? ? David G. Penty Penty Photographic Services myflyanddrive.com davidpenty@... (416) 574-4557 ( C ) (519) 855-6961 (R) ?
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Re: Need advice on wiring a cross-over and wye junction
Thanks, Blair.?? Beyond the small ¡®Y¡¯ is a very short space and then a double crossover begins which is managed by 2 MRC auto-reversers.?? But, I¡¯ll put up the diagram, as is, unless you think I need to show more detail of the mainline. ? David G. Penty Penty Photographic Services myflyanddrive.com davidpenty@... (416) 574-4557 ( C ) (519) 855-6961 (R) ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Blair
Sent: May 2, 2021 10:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Need advice on wiring a cross-over and wye junction? David, You'll have to post the picture to the photos area here.? I saw your post on the Digitrax list.? You have two options: 1) The stretch from the crossover to the small 'y' could be fed via an autoreverser 2) The tail of the 'y' could be either fed via an autoreverser, or fed based on the position of the turnout (i.e. feed it from either leg, depending on the position of the turnout; that will require, likely, a relay or other electrical artifice). I can't tell you which is more appropriate, as I assume your diagram is part of a larger layout.? If the tail of the 'y' in fact connects elsewhere, then the electrical 'state of affairs' may be more complicated. Blair On 2021-05-02 9:10, David Penty wrote: Hello all I¡¯m new to the forum and still reading my way through Allan Gartner¡¯s Wiring for DCC documents ¨C excellent material.? However, I¡¯m looking for some specific guidance ? At the end of my mainline, I¡¯ve re-laid track.? In the attached diagram, the turntable was pre-existing, but all turnouts and crossover are new.? I¡¯m not certain if an auto reverser is needed and if so, where it would be located.? Can someone give me an idea of track wiring for the layout.? ??Peco suggest, on the package, that insulating all ends of the crossover shouldn¡¯t be needed but then provide an example of how to insulate the crossover on all sides.? I¡¯m running Digitrax, Code 100 HO with Peco turnouts. ? Incidentally, I got some gravel stuck in the Atlas turntable;? when I lifted the platter off, 2 pins with springs fell out.?? There appears to be no way to replace the pins/springs when you invert the platter to install it.? Anyone run into this issue? Thanks in advance for your assistance ? ? David G. Penty Penty Photographic Services myflyanddrive.com davidpenty@... (416) 574-4557 ( C ) (519) 855-6961 (R) ?
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Re: Need advice on wiring a cross-over and wye junction
David,
You'll have to post the picture to the photos area here.? I saw
your post on the Digitrax list.? You have two options:
1) The stretch from the crossover to the small 'y' could be fed
via an autoreverser
2) The tail of the 'y' could be either fed via an autoreverser,
or fed based on the position of the turnout (i.e. feed it from
either leg, depending on the position of the turnout; that will
require, likely, a relay or other electrical artifice).
I can't tell you which is more appropriate, as I assume your
diagram is part of a larger layout.? If the tail of the 'y' in
fact connects elsewhere, then the electrical 'state of affairs'
may be more complicated.
Blair
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Show quoted text
On 2021-05-02 9:10, David Penty wrote:
Hello all
I¡¯m new to the forum and still reading my
way through Allan Gartner¡¯s Wiring for DCC documents ¨C
excellent material.? However, I¡¯m looking for some specific
guidance
?
At the end of my mainline, I¡¯ve re-laid
track.? In the attached diagram, the turntable was
pre-existing, but all turnouts and crossover are new.? I¡¯m not
certain if an auto reverser is needed and if so, where it
would be located.? Can someone give me an idea of track wiring
for the layout.? ??Peco suggest, on the package, that
insulating all ends of the crossover shouldn¡¯t be needed but
then provide an example of how to insulate the crossover on
all sides.?
I¡¯m running Digitrax, Code 100 HO with Peco
turnouts.
?
Incidentally, I got some gravel stuck in
the Atlas turntable;? when I lifted the platter off, 2 pins
with springs fell out.?? There appears to be no way to replace
the pins/springs when you invert the platter to install it.?
Anyone run into this issue?
Thanks in advance for your assistance
?
?
David
G. Penty
Penty
Photographic Services
myflyanddrive.com
davidpenty@...
(416)
574-4557 ( C )
(519)
855-6961 (R)
?
|
Need advice on wiring a cross-over and wye junction
Hello all
I¡¯m new to the forum and still reading my way through Allan Gartner¡¯s Wiring for DCC documents ¨C excellent material.? However, I¡¯m looking for some specific guidance
?
At the end of my mainline, I¡¯ve re-laid track.? In the attached diagram, the turntable was pre-existing, but all turnouts and crossover are new.? I¡¯m not certain if an auto reverser is needed and if so, where it would be located.? Can someone give me an idea of track wiring for the layout.? ??Peco suggest, on the package, that insulating all ends of the crossover shouldn¡¯t be needed but then provide an example of how to insulate the crossover on all sides.?
I¡¯m running Digitrax, Code 100 HO with Peco turnouts.
I've uploaded a schematic of the track layout under Files.? Image is called 'Peco Crossover wiring issue.jpg'
?
?
David G. Penty
Penty Photographic Services
myflyanddrive.com
davidpenty@...
(416) 574-4557 ( C )
(519) 855-6961 (R)
?
|
Re: AR Vs Tortoise to power frog
Hi Jim,
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you said. If the Tortoise and AR work without keep-alive devices, they'll work with. The energy storage works for the engine but doesn't have any effect on the polarity of what the engine "sees". That comes strictly from the track, which is handled by the KA device or Tortoise. I've had KAs since they came out and never had any problems with my reversing circuits.
....Tom
On Sat, May 1, 2021 at 6:45 AM Jim Betz < jimbetz@...> wrote: Dale,
? Your methods are like mine.? I make the turnout for a return loop in
the same electrical block as the approach.? I suspect, since I'm?
using Tortoises, that having the PSX-AR throw the turnout would
not be 'fast enough to matter' ... most of my locos have keep alives
in them and so I pretty much have to make sure the turnout is
properly aligned before I start into it.? Probably the only important
drawback to a keep alive ... but I'm willing to deal with that simply
because the advantages out weigh it.? Plus my philosophy is
"if you are running turnouts - you're not paying attention".? *G*
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim
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Re: AR Vs Tortoise to power frog
Dale,
? Your methods are like mine.? I make the turnout for a return loop in
the same electrical block as the approach.? I suspect, since I'm?
using Tortoises, that having the PSX-AR throw the turnout would
not be 'fast enough to matter' ... most of my locos have keep alives
in them and so I pretty much have to make sure the turnout is
properly aligned before I start into it.? Probably the only important
drawback to a keep alive ... but I'm willing to deal with that simply
because the advantages out weigh it.? Plus my philosophy is
"if you are running turnouts - you're not paying attention".? *G*
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim
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Re: It shouldn't be doing this.
Hi JT, ? Thanks for the note. I hope that helps. DCC is more sensitive to brief power interruptions. A brief DC power interruption might manifest as a small jerk that may go unnoticed. Same with very brief shorts. Dale ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of John White Sent: Monday, April 26, 2021 3:59 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] It shouldn't be doing this. ? Hi Dale Muir
Thanks for offering up your idea on how you fixed your contact issue. I will have to remember that, as I have to figure out what it is about those trucks and why they worked just fine as DC but not DCC. It's really frustrating that it works one way and not the other. But then we are talking about DCC. Anyway thanks for your thoughts on this. It works like it should now and I haven't taken time to go back at it, with six acres to tend to, with trees down or partly down, from this past winter and moving things around for a big yard sale. You know how that is. Oh and the honey do list.
Enjoy your spring,
JT
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Re: AR Vs Tortoise to power frog
I use Tortoise contacts for frog polarity and DCC Specialties PSX-AR to control polarity of return loops. I keep the frog polarity completely independent of the return loop polarity and I have never had an issue. I have not experimented with having the AR unit throw the return loop turnout automatically.
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Re: AR Vs Tortoise to power frog
I always use switch machine contacts to control frog polarity on turnouts and haven't had an issue. On my layout I mostly use Bluepoint machines, but Tortoises work the same way.
I also use DPDT relays controlled by switch machine contacts for reverse loop polarity. I don't plan on ever having any AR circuits on my layout ever, at any time, or in any location.
Tim
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Re: It shouldn't be doing this.
Hi Dale Muir
Thanks for offering up your idea on how you fixed your contact issue. I will have to remember that, as I have to figure out what it is about those trucks and why they worked just fine as DC but not DCC. It's really frustrating that it works one way and not the other. But then we are talking about DCC. Anyway thanks for your thoughts on this. It works like it should now and I haven't taken time to go back at it, with six acres to tend to, with trees down or partly down, from this past winter and moving things around for a big yard sale. You know how that is. Oh and the honey do list.
Enjoy your spring,
JT
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AR Vs Tortoise to power frog
I posted a problem I was having with Locos stalling on turnouts, in particular a cross over.
After a lot of trouble shooting I discovered the AR does not always swicth the polarity when the switch moves.?
I am considering scrapping the AR's and using the Tortoise machines to swicth polarity.
Wondering if anyone has any advise as in does and Don'ts. I am N scale and using Barrett Hill Touch Toggles and thier tortoise adapters.?
Thanks
Perry?
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Re: It shouldn't be doing this.
Thanks Dale,
Not sure what is going on with the trucks, but switched them out for another truck and it is fine now. But I plan to, will dig into the old truck and find out. Never had this happen before, so I want to know. It may take me some time, but I will do this.
JT
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Don, Thanks for the reply.? I have not heard of the punch idea. May be worth a try.? I have my RR broken into power districts protected by DCC Specialties PSX boards.? They are not indicating a short. at any time. unless I intentionally throw against the movement which I did on purpose to test the PSX. These turnouts (cross over) are actually at the divide point of two districts the roundhouse and my yard. So yes, insulated joints are present. I had just finished installing my TT this weekend. This was first loco out of the TT district. All testing up to this point was with my RR Ampmeter. I had voltage.? Yes, I have good pressure on the points from the Tortoise. I have power to every frog, and rails on each turnout. Every section of track has its own power drop.? Perry
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021, 08:50:53 AM CDT, Don Vollrath <donevol43@...> wrote:
Perry, are you sure you are not causing track short circuits by out of sequence movements of the throw bars and points between turnouts? Any insulated joints between turnouts? carefully look at the point on the point rails. Ensure that there is a tiny pointed end where it touches the stock rail. This is where current to the point rail and frog is being picked up? or lost.? Ensure the linkage to control the throw bar puts adequate pressure to force the point rail to touch the stock rail. Be sure there are no vertical bumps in the rails to lift loco wheels off the rails as a loco rolls through.? Adding jumper wires at this time will be tricky but may be necessary. Tighten up any swivel joints with a center punch. Adding conductalube may help.
DonV
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Re: It shouldn't be doing this.
Dale, thanks for providing your solution. The title of this thread is correct. Poor design by Athearn.
DonV
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Perry, are you sure you are not causing track short circuits by out of sequence movements of the throw bars and points between turnouts? Any insulated joints between turnouts? carefully look at the point on the point rails. Ensure that there is a tiny pointed end where it touches the stock rail. This is where current to the point rail and frog is being picked up or lost. Ensure the linkage to control the throw bar puts adequate pressure to force the point rail to touch the stock rail. Be sure there are no vertical bumps in the rails to lift loco wheels off the rails as a loco rolls through. Adding jumper wires at this time will be tricky but may be necessary. Tighten up any swivel joints with a center punch. Adding conductalube may help.
DonV
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Re: It shouldn't be doing this.
Hi John. I'm glad you finally found a solution. Here is another issue that no one mentioned so far:
A few years ago I acquired several Athearn Genesis F3 and F7 units. As I converted them to DCC I programmed in momentum. I hard-wired the decoders so there was no issue with plugs or connectors. I also soldered the decoder leads directly to the trucks. They kept momentarily cutting out, and cycling through the startup sequence. Athearn sent replacement trucks, but they didn't help. The problem was with the truck design. The "wipers" that rest on the axles were not making good contact even after cleaning. I added tiny?phosphor bronze wires that contact the wheel treads, and that solved the problem. The?phosphor bronze wires were soldered to the brass truck parts meant to pick up current from the axles. This was tricky, and I used a resistance soldering unit and the resistance tweezers to hold the parts together while soldering.
Dale Muir
Geneva, IL
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Flex track has a tendency for the rail to creep, some more than others. Filling the gap will insure that it stays a gap.
Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC
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Jim Betz
David Penty
Dale Muir
Tim
John White