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Hi,
First let me say I'm glad this device exists so I don't have to lug my 35kg 40 year old SA around...
However, having said that I have to point out a serious design flaw (and rant somewhat that it is not an open source design which would make repair so much easier).
So I was pretty happy to be able to purchase my TinySA from a local reseller here in Poland after he confirmed he got it from Zeenko's. I was happily using the SA for testing the output of my ham radio amplifier when I thought. What is this "Listen" option in the menu? Can it possibly demodulate audio signals?
So I took my headphones and I inserted them normally into the jack, but it felt very loose and the plug fell out when I lifted it. There was no crack felt when inserting. Minimal force was used (I've owned mini jack equipment for ages, including ones with the port on a bare pcb, I know what force to use to plug it in).
So I inspected the port closer and I noticed the receptacle is not there. I opened the device and I saw the carnage and the design flaw that led to it.?
The receptacle is an smd part and all the support it has is in a form of very narrow cutout around the mouth. There was not even the "hot snot" type of glue around it as support. There is no back support. The part simply torn out of the pcb and damaged what I assume is a voltage regulator for the sd card behind it.
This picture was taken after I very carefully placed the voltage regulator back on its pads.? Is it possible I got a previously broken and returned unit from the seller? I initially thought so, but I reviewed my "parcel opening" video and there was no gaping hole where the audio port is and I doubt the receptacle would just sit there held by the case cutout. So it appears when I tried to plug it in it indeed ripped out of the pads.
To add insult to injury, the design is not open source (despite being based on nanovna that is, which made me assume it too would be open hardware) ... So I have no idea what the value of now missing r32 resistor should be.
When I blew up an RF switch in nanovna I simply looked up the schematic online, ordered a part from China and replaced it myself. Here it is not possible. But what about clones? Don't I understand, open hardware designs get cloned? So does current TinySA Ultra. Not being open hardware has not stopped cloners one bit, but it hinders end users in attempts to repair the device.
The only reason why I could figure out the chip is a voltage regulator is because I saw such regulators before. I did manage to fix it with wires. I also lubricated the mini jack receptacle and tried to insert/retract the plug few times after the repair. It holds for now. I'll probably be applying the hot snot to stabilise it further if someone could measure that resistor and let me know it's value so I can replace it first. Maybe it is 10k?.
So here you have my feedback. Why do I think it is a design flaw? Well, for one, if a smd part is used and through hole is absolutely impossible for an audio jack the case should be formed in a way that provides support behind. At the very least some sort of glue (preferably hot melt so it can be removed for repair) could also be used for purpose.?
I realise the "listen" feature is not that important. It's more of a gimmick as it only supports AM (my signal is SSB so I couldn't listen anyway), but in the process of messing up the jack port a very important feature (the ad card port) was damaged. I'm pleased to report the SD card works fine. I haven't tested listening yet (without the final grounding resistor), but it should work too.?
Regards,? F
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Hi flynth, I'm very sorry, we did notice that the audio interface may be damaged, and expect that we'll be able to start selling the improved tinySA ULTRA plus by the end of this month.
You can contact your dealer for compensation.
R32 is 4.7k ohms.
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I see this kind of stuff all the time, and I think it comes from Engineers and CAD layout folks who never repaired things before they went to engineering school.??
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There are times when SMT connectors should NEVER be used. My rule is that if the pressure to insert/remove the connectors is more than the pressure you would let somebody else use to insert/remove contacts in your eyes then you need a through-hole connector.??
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There is clearly enough room around that connector for through-hole pins and at a minimum the pads could have been 2-3X bigger...??
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Too many CAD layout folks get caught up in using SMT connectors because in the early days of PCBs drill sizes (diameter of the holes) and the number of holes jacked up the cost of the PCB...??
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I've seen too many PCBs destroyed because the SMT pads and many of the traces got ripped off the board because just a little too much force was used...
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73 Dallas N4DDM
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"the improved tinySA ULTRA plus"
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Wait - what's this? ?What did I miss? ?Like I?need another tinySA. ?But, progress is progress...
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On Fri, Nov 15, 2024 at 03:20 PM, The Greene Family wrote:
"the improved tinySA ULTRA plus"
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Wait - what's this? ?What did I miss? ?Like I?need another tinySA. ?But, progress is progress...
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Yes, very interesting ...
Is it possible to have some preview of the features of the new device ?
?
;-)
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Audio jacks on my walkmans were first to go. My solution with limited equipment and skills was to wire it to the pcb and let it "float" in the flimsy plastic chasis. MP3 players and later phones or field audio recorders did not have those issues. Build of the TinySA is reminescent of old walkmens when it comes to audio jacks.
I always wondered why even make it fixed to the pcb if chasis is not enforced enough to keep it fixed in place when in use.
On Fri, Nov 15, 2024 at 03:20 PM, The Greene Family wrote:
"the improved tinySA ULTRA plus"
?
Wait - what's this?? What did I miss?? Like I?need another tinySA.? But, progress is progress...
?
Yes, very interesting ...
Is it possible to have some preview of the features of the new device ?
?
;-)
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This bit my former employer in a wireless intercom beltpack we made. TRRS jacks didn't hold up as well as the XLrs. All it took was a dangling headset cable to snag on something as the user moved and the connector popped right off the board. We replaced a lot of mainboards under warranty. The solution was to use larger solder pads. I don't know how well it worked out. On Fri, 15 Nov 2024 04:52:41 -0800 "Dallas N4DDM via groups.io" <mylastname@...> wrote: I see this kind of stuff all the time, and I think it comes from Engineers and CAD layout folks who never repaired things before they went to engineering school. -- 73 -Jim NU0C
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Thank you for a quick reply.?
I too am very interested in the new tinySA ULTRA plus.?
Regards,? F
Hi flynth, I'm very sorry, we did notice that the audio interface may be damaged, and expect that we'll be able to start selling the improved tinySA ULTRA plus by the end of this month.
You can contact your dealer for compensation.
R32 is 4.7k ohms.
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thank you for the hint and the picture, i will fix the headphone socket with some glue - before it will get loose..
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Worth thinking about running? tiny bit of superglue under it if it's not damaged yet . .? ?
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Yes. That is if you don't want a chance of the socket ripping off the pcb when inserting a headphone plug.
I definitely did mine as the jack was hard to insert the plug in.
It's called preventative action. It is very easy to do.
Clyde KC7BJE?
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Super glue will not hold. Use something elastic that does not melt plastic. Something like composite glue, by far the best choice. If you want extra strength and flexibility (and you will need it) drench something like tissue paper or microfiber cloth (white fibers not actual cloth) in epoxy in it and use it between connector and plastic. Fibers do wonders when mixed with epoxy, think carbon fibres, same thing or fiberglass. Can get a bit messy and removing the connector from the chassis is not an option unless you apply small patches of fibre/epoxy. Don't let it drip into the connector but if it does WAIT until it dries and then scrape it off. If you smear wet epoxy over contacts you will have a much harder time removing it and it will clog the space around pins forever.
On Sun, Nov 17, 2024 at 12:11?PM Clyde Lambert via <clyde.lambert= [email protected]> wrote: Yes. That is if you don't want a chance of the socket ripping off the pcb when inserting a headphone plug.
I definitely did mine as the jack was hard to insert the plug in.
It's called preventative action. It is very easy to do.
Clyde KC7BJE?
-- SOFTECH, IGOR FEHER S.P.
Liminjanska cesta 96
6320 Portoro?
Slovenija
Tel: +386 41 872 601
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I would have thought that something elastic is the last thing that you want, any movement is likely to stress the solder joints leading them to eventually fracture. Jeff G8HUL ________________________________________ From: [email protected] < [email protected]> on behalf of Igor Feher via groups.io <igor.feher@...> Sent: 17 November 2024 12:08 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [tinysa] Possible design issue with TinySA Ultra. Super glue will not hold. Use something elastic that does not melt plastic. Something like composite glue, by far the best choice. If you want extra strength and flexibility (and you will need it) drench something like tissue paper or microfiber cloth (white fibers not actual cloth) in epoxy in it and use it between connector and plastic. Fibers do wonders when mixed with epoxy, think carbon fibres, same thing or fiberglass. Can get a bit messy and removing the connector from the chassis is not an option unless you apply small patches of fibre/epoxy. Don't let it drip into the connector but if it does WAIT until it dries and then scrape it off. If you smear wet epoxy over contacts you will have a much harder time removing it and it will clog the space around pins forever. On Sun, Nov 17, 2024 at 12:11?PM Clyde Lambert via groups.io<> <clyde.lambert@...<mailto: [email protected]>> wrote: Yes. That is if you don't want a chance of the socket ripping off the pcb when inserting a headphone plug. I definitely did mine as the jack was hard to insert the plug in. It's called preventative action. It is very easy to do. Clyde KC7BJE -- SOFTECH, IGOR FEHER S.P. Liminjanska cesta 96 6320 Portoro? Slovenija E-po?ta: igor.feher@...<mailto:igor.feher@...> Tel: +386 41 872 601
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Super glue will just crack. It is useless. Epoxy will return to original position and will flex with chasis. I would not glue it ti MB but chasis and connect pins with thin lacquered wires, like transformer wire of appropriate gauge. Remember to remove lacquer as it is an isolatior, that is its intended purpose. That way little flex and give will accomodate forces transfer in to chasis mostly, epoxy can handle that if done on cleaned surface, mixed properly, clamped until dry. Wires can flex and will not break but even if they do replacememt is trivial.
You can leave wires bit longer and use regular wires 0.3, 0.4 mm for industrial usage, solid wire. It has to be soft and flexible. Cheap or hard wires will not do.
I would have thought that something elastic is the last thing that you want, any movement is likely to stress the solder joints leading them to eventually fracture.
Jeff G8HUL
________________________________________
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Igor Feher via <igor.feher=[email protected]>
Sent: 17 November 2024 12:08
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [tinysa] Possible design issue with TinySA Ultra.
Super glue will not hold. Use something elastic that does not melt plastic. Something like composite glue, by far the best choice. If you want extra strength and flexibility (and you will need it) drench something like tissue paper or microfiber cloth (white fibers not actual cloth) in epoxy in it and use it between connector and plastic. Fibers do wonders when mixed with epoxy, think carbon fibres, same thing or fiberglass. Can get a bit messy and removing the connector from the chassis is not an option unless you apply small patches of fibre/epoxy. Don't let it drip into the connector but if it does WAIT until it dries and then scrape it off. If you smear wet epoxy over contacts you will have a much harder time removing it and it will clog the space around pins forever.
On Sun, Nov 17, 2024 at 12:11?PM Clyde Lambert via <> <clyde.lambert=[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Yes. That is if you don't want a chance of the socket ripping off the pcb when inserting a headphone plug.
I definitely did mine as the jack was hard to insert the plug in.
It's called preventative action. It is very easy to do.
Clyde KC7BJE
--
SOFTECH, IGOR FEHER S.P.
6320 Portoro?
Slovenija
E-po?ta: igor.feher@...<mailto:igor.feher@...>
Tel: +386 41 872 601
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I think the occasional problem with this connector coming away is largely caused by the actual diameter of the 3.5 Jack insertion hole. It is just a bit on the small size. This causes some (but not all) Jack plugs to be a very tight friction fit, thus causing excessive insertion/withdrawal forces and subsequent stress on the SMD pads.?
IMHO. A very small drop of cyano glue is perfect. It will wick under the connector body and bond very strongly to the PCB. Also, use good old proper full fat leaded solder! ?Peter
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Previous post makes me feel a bit uncomfortable for no other reason than I don't want to give wrong advice. In my experience PCBs can be very fragile due to various factors, not just PCB qualities, design etc. I don't like gluing anything to a PCB unless it can come off without peeling off the copper layer, hot glue is fine for example, anything you can dissolve/release or just use force, like two sided tape etc.
Another issue is cyanoacrylate glues are great for static fusing, where you don't ever touch it again or surfaces are large and allow adhesive to stick while being rigid. Any flex or stress and CA glue will come off eventually even if it feels rigid at first. Adding soda powder or something similar can make it better for some situations. That is just my personal experience with the assumption that there are many people that actually have opposing experiences with seemingly same problems due to variations in conditions. I believe my solution is at least as good as one with CA on MB but personally I would go with mine.
I think the occasional problem with this connector coming away is largely caused by the actual diameter of the 3.5 Jack insertion hole. It is just a bit on the small size. This causes some (but not all) Jack plugs to be a very tight friction fit, thus causing excessive insertion/withdrawal forces and subsequent stress on the SMD pads.?
IMHO. A very small drop of cyano glue is perfect. It will wick under the connector body and bond very strongly to the PCB. Also, use good old proper full fat leaded solder!? Peter
-- SOFTECH, IGOR FEHER S.P.
Liminjanska cesta 96
6320 Portoro?
Slovenija
Tel: +386 41 872 601
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I occasionally use Bicarbonate Soda as a bulking / accelerant agent with CA glue, but I do worry about it's long term stability, conductivity, pH, and overall suitability when used with electronic circuits.
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Hot melt glue would be my preferred method, or for extra support, drill holes though the PCB, and insert some stiff wire supports, soldered to the connector body, and wrapped under the PCB to form a loop, with the ends soldered together too.
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Regards,
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Martin
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On Mon, Nov 18, 2024 at 01:35 PM, Igor Feher wrote:
Adding soda powder or something similar can make it better for some situations.
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Not to mention that when first applied CA glue can outgas and adhere a film to areas where it can cause problems. I first learned about this some years ago when a co-worker accidentally discovered that CA glue on a shop rag generated visible fumes, which subsequently adhered to and exposed fingerprints on clear plastic. We had fun playing with this notion for half an hour or so then went back to work and did not give it another thought. Some years later I read that law enforcement was testing a promising new method of fingerprint recovery using CA fumes. Dammit.... I tend to avoid using it in electronics if possible. On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 14:35:07 +0100 "Igor Feher via groups.io" <igor.feher@...> wrote: Another issue is cyanoacrylate glues are great for static fusing, where you
don't ever touch it again or surfaces are large and allow adhesive to stick
while being rigid. Any flex or stress and CA glue will come off eventually
even if it feels rigid at first. Adding soda powder or something similar
can make it better for some situations. -- 73 -Jim NU0C
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On 15/11/2024 15:20, The Greene Family via groups.io wrote: "the improved tinySA ULTRA *plus*"
Wait - what's this? ?What did I miss? ?Like I /need/ another tinySA. There is some unofficial information published like: -- Arkadiusz Mi?kiewicz, arekm / ( maven.pl | pld-linux.org )
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I have a TinySA Ultra on order and will get it soon. I was looking forward to trying out the headphone jack. Now I think I will not do that.
Geoff
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Dallas N4DDM
Jim Shorney
Bruce Akhurst
Clyde Lambert
Geoff KE0BNX