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Re: SECOND HARMONIC

ronaldo martins
 

Friends. Good start to the night. Back to the subject of measuring the second harmonic! In tinySA itself we have the ATENUATE option where we can place attenuators of 10dB...30dB etc. without the need for an external device. I didn't see any difference in the measurements, with my lack of familiarity with the instrument. tinySA even suggests that we use a low-pass filter for this measurement: . What would this filter be like? The tinySA's range of use is very large. Does the equipment insert this filter automatically in the MEASURE>>>HARMONIC command?
This measurement is the most basic you would expect from equipment like this.

RAMARTINS

Em s¨¢b., 14 de out. de 2023 ¨¤s 13:44, W0LEV <davearea51a@...> escreveu:

A good test for this kind of behavior:

Measure as usual.? Then insert a 10 dB attenuator.? The fundamental and harmonics should decrease by 10 dB.? If something is not right (front end saturation or too much signal), the harmonics will decrease by something noticeably greater than 10 dB.? Repeat with a 20 dB attenuator and look for similar results.

If the harmonics, especially, and fundamental decrease by something more than the total attenuation, you are inputting too much signal.

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 2:48?PM ronaldo martins <ram.ufrn@...> wrote:
These are 'on-air' signals common in broadcasting stations and of low intensity for the device with a range (example) of -110 dBm to - 40 dBm, completely within the instrument's operating range. It doesn't need - I think - an external attenuator.

Em s¨¢b., 14 de out. de 2023 ¨¤s 11:27, Bill Cromwell <wrcromwell@...> escreveu:
Hi,

How much signal are you applying from that antenna? I need attenuators on the input to my SAs with any antenna. Almost always benefit from attenuators ahead of the communication receivers too and for the same reasons.

73,

Bill ?KU8H


On Oct 14, 2023, at 1:37 AM, ronaldo martins <ram.ufrn@...> wrote:

?
Friends. Good morning. I have a doubt about tinSA measurement error (probably mine). Every radio frequency emission has the fundamental and harmonics. In a broadcast from a commercial FM station we have the main frequency (94.3 MHz, for example). The second harmonic will be at 188.6 MHz = (94.3 x 2). Choose the station (or signal generated by you) of your preference. Do it on your tinySA with an input at 85 MHz and a stop at 200 MHz and tune in to your station/signal, with the small antenna and input at Low or a direct cable. The international standard states that this second harmonic must be between 75-80 bB below the main one. Centering the marker on these two values we have practically the same value measured in
 - dBm (top left of the display). Which is an inconsistency. If anyone has any guidance, I would appreciate it.
AT
RAMartins



--
Dave - W?LEV
Re: SECOND HARMONIC

 

Point of note:
101.1MHz X 2 = 202.2MHz
202.2 MHz - 101.1 MHz = 101.1 MHz
Re: SECOND HARMONIC

 

Using just the antenna to "sniff the air" over a large range pulls in a lot of commercial radio. In my urban area there are 50+ FM and a like number of receivable AM stations. The strongest of these register at -30dbm and I'm pretty sure the power hitting the antenna from *everything* together does not exceed unit capacity.?

But what might be happening is that the total energy is washing out the harmonics. Between say 101.1MHz and its 2nd harmonic are 303.3MHz of bandwidth. There's a lot of other radio active in that span. Your harmonics might be masked by all of that. Possibly???

P.S. in my environment putting 10db of attenuation between the antenna and the tinysa reduces peaks by the expected amount. 30db (I don't have a 20) reduces so much I see no peaks at all.
Re: Detecting low power motion sensors

 

Use max hold instead of min hold
--
For more info on the tinySA go to https://tinysa.org/wiki/
Re: Detecting low power motion sensors

 

Re: Detecting low power motion sensors

 

I would assume these were doppler radar type sensors to work behind walls and they will more than likely be 24GHz radar sensors.
Re: Detecting low power motion sensors

 

A short "stub" of wire should work just fine for these frequencies.? After all, a 1/4-wavelength at 5 GHz is only 0.6-inches in free space.? In close proximity, even the open SMA should capture enough energy to show.??

Dave - W?LEV


On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 4:50?PM ANDREAS Decker <decker.a70@...> wrote:

Greetings to all users of the TinySA community !

I have a TinySA Ultra with firmware updated to version 1.4-99 with which I can detect the transmission frequency of all devices at my disposal (remote controls, wifi routers, alarm sensors etc.)

The company that has deployed the alarm in a client's house under construction in 2011, has hidden several radio motion sensors inside the walls that were then plastered, simply by sliding the devices inside the brick cavities !

Some sensors activate the alarm at a distance of 1.5 meters, others even as close as 60 cm, so as to detect the passage of people accurately and only at certain strategic points such as hallways, stairs and other transit points, even outside the house.

The problem I¡¯m experiencing is that I cannot detect the transmissions frequency of these sensor. I¡¯m using the stock antenna with these settings: frequency span 100 MHz, Min Hold, RBW 300 KHz, LNA=ON. As I get closer to where the sensor is located, I expect to see a stationary signal which must decrease in intensity as I move away.

Since I don't know anything about the type of sensor and its transmission frequency, I focused my attention on frequencies typically used by these devices: 2.4 - 3 - 5.8 - 10.5 GHz, then also the entire spectrum supported by TinySA Ultra up to 20 GHz.

What is the best strategy to detect the signal ?

Which antenna should I use for the purpose ?



--
Dave - W?LEV
Detecting low power motion sensors

 

Greetings to all users of the TinySA community !

I have a TinySA Ultra with firmware updated to version 1.4-99 with which I can detect the transmission frequency of all devices at my disposal (remote controls, wifi routers, alarm sensors etc.)

The company that has deployed the alarm in a client's house under construction in 2011, has hidden several radio motion sensors inside the walls that were then plastered, simply by sliding the devices inside the brick cavities !

Some sensors activate the alarm at a distance of 1.5 meters, others even as close as 60 cm, so as to detect the passage of people accurately and only at certain strategic points such as hallways, stairs and other transit points, even outside the house.

The problem I¡¯m experiencing is that I cannot detect the transmissions frequency of these sensor. I¡¯m using the stock antenna with these settings: frequency span 100 MHz, Min Hold, RBW 300 KHz, LNA=ON. As I get closer to where the sensor is located, I expect to see a stationary signal which must decrease in intensity as I move away.

Since I don't know anything about the type of sensor and its transmission frequency, I focused my attention on frequencies typically used by these devices: 2.4 - 3 - 5.8 - 10.5 GHz, then also the entire spectrum supported by TinySA Ultra up to 20 GHz.

What is the best strategy to detect the signal ?

Which antenna should I use for the purpose ?
Re: SECOND HARMONIC

 

A good test for this kind of behavior:

Measure as usual.? Then insert a 10 dB attenuator.? The fundamental and harmonics should decrease by 10 dB.? If something is not right (front end saturation or too much signal), the harmonics will decrease by something noticeably greater than 10 dB.? Repeat with a 20 dB attenuator and look for similar results.

If the harmonics, especially, and fundamental decrease by something more than the total attenuation, you are inputting too much signal.

Dave - W?LEV


On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 2:48?PM ronaldo martins <ram.ufrn@...> wrote:
These are 'on-air' signals common in broadcasting stations and of low intensity for the device with a range (example) of -110 dBm to - 40 dBm, completely within the instrument's operating range. It doesn't need - I think - an external attenuator.

Em s¨¢b., 14 de out. de 2023 ¨¤s 11:27, Bill Cromwell <wrcromwell@...> escreveu:
Hi,

How much signal are you applying from that antenna? I need attenuators on the input to my SAs with any antenna. Almost always benefit from attenuators ahead of the communication receivers too and for the same reasons.

73,

Bill ?KU8H


On Oct 14, 2023, at 1:37 AM, ronaldo martins <ram.ufrn@...> wrote:

?
Friends. Good morning. I have a doubt about tinSA measurement error (probably mine). Every radio frequency emission has the fundamental and harmonics. In a broadcast from a commercial FM station we have the main frequency (94.3 MHz, for example). The second harmonic will be at 188.6 MHz = (94.3 x 2). Choose the station (or signal generated by you) of your preference. Do it on your tinySA with an input at 85 MHz and a stop at 200 MHz and tune in to your station/signal, with the small antenna and input at Low or a direct cable. The international standard states that this second harmonic must be between 75-80 bB below the main one. Centering the marker on these two values we have practically the same value measured in
 - dBm (top left of the display). Which is an inconsistency. If anyone has any guidance, I would appreciate it.
AT
RAMartins



--
Dave - W?LEV
Re: SECOND HARMONIC

ronaldo martins
 
Edited 

These are 'on-air' signals common in broadcasting stations and of low intensity 
for the device with a range (example) of -110 dBm to - 40 dBm, 
completely within the instrument's operating range. It doesn't need - I think - 
an external attenuator.

Em s¨¢b., 14 de out. de 2023 ¨¤s 11:27, Bill Cromwell <wrcromwell@...> escreveu:

?
Hi,
?
How much signal are you applying from that antenna? I need attenuators on the input to my SAs with any antenna. Almost always benefit from attenuators ahead of the communication receivers too and for the same reasons.
?
73,
?
Bill ?KU8H
?

On Oct 14, 2023, at 1:37 AM, ronaldo martins <ram.ufrn@...> wrote:

Friends. Good morning. I have a doubt about tinSA measurement error (probably mine). Every radio frequency emission has the fundamental and harmonics. In a broadcast from a commercial FM station we have the main frequency (94.3 MHz, for example). The second harmonic will be at 188.6 MHz = (94.3 x 2). Choose the station (or signal generated by you) of your preference. Do it on your tinySA with an input at 85 MHz and a stop at 200 MHz and tune in to your station/signal, with the small antenna and input at Low or a direct cable. The international standard states that this second harmonic must be between 75-80 bB below the main one. Centering the marker on these two values we have practically the same value measured in
 - dBm (top left of the display). Which is an inconsistency. If anyone has any guidance, I would appreciate it.
AT
RAMartins

?

?
Re: SECOND HARMONIC

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Hi,

How much signal are you applying from that antenna? I need attenuators on the input to my SAs with any antenna. Almost always benefit from attenuators ahead of the communication receivers too and for the same reasons.

73,

Bill ?KU8H


On Oct 14, 2023, at 1:37 AM, ronaldo martins <ram.ufrn@...> wrote:

?
Friends. Good morning. I have a doubt about tinSA measurement error (probably mine). Every radio frequency emission has the fundamental and harmonics. In a broadcast from a commercial FM station we have the main frequency (94.3 MHz, for example). The second harmonic will be at 188.6 MHz = (94.3 x 2). Choose the station (or signal generated by you) of your preference. Do it on your tinySA with an input at 85 MHz and a stop at 200 MHz and tune in to your station/signal, with the small antenna and input at Low or a direct cable. The international standard states that this second harmonic must be between 75-80 bB below the main one. Centering the marker on these two values we have practically the same value measured in
 - dBm (top left of the display). Which is an inconsistency. If anyone has any guidance, I would appreciate it.
AT
RAMartins
SECOND HARMONIC

[email protected]
 
Edited 

Friends. Good morning. I have a doubt about tinSA measurement error (probably mine).
 Every radio frequency emission has the fundamental and harmonics. 
In a broadcast from a commercial FM station we have the main frequency (94.3 MHz, for example).
 The second harmonic will be at 188.6 MHz = (94.3 x 2). 
Choose the station (or signal generated by you) of your preference. 
Do it on your tinySA with an input at 85 MHz and a stop at 200 MHz and tune in 
to your station/signal, with the small antenna and input at Low or a direct cable. 
The international standard states that this second harmonic must be between 75-80 bB 
below the main one. 
Centering the marker on these two values we have practically the same value measured in
 - dBm (top left of the display). Which is an inconsistency. 
If anyone has any guidance, I would appreciate it.
AT
RAMartins
Re: Error in the Python program tinySA.py #bug_report

 

On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 10:21 PM, Kimmo wrote:

I need a Python program, in Linux / Ubuntu, that can be used to control tinySA so that I can make continuous sweeps with the tinySA.
I was testing the program tinySA.py, available at
http://athome.kaashoek.com/tinySA/python/

It works fine when using with a command like
> ./tinySA.py -S 50e6 -E 500e6? -o aa.csv?? ? ? ? ? ? (sweeping between 50-500 MHz and saving the data into aa.csv, with 450 scan points)
However, if using a command
> ./tinySA.py -S 50e6 -E 500e6 -N 500? -o aa.csv ? ? (same as above but using 500 scan points)
there is an error message

Traceback (most recent call last):
? File "./tinySA.py", line 306, in <module>
??? nv.writeCSV(s,opt.save)
? File "./tinySA.py", line 239, in writeCSV
??? print("%d, "%self.frequencies[i], "%2.2f"%x[i], file=f)
IndexError: index 500 is out of bounds for axis 0 with size 500

Can somebody tell how to fix this error ?
After that, I can try to modify the program so that it makes continuous sweeps.

Cheers, Kimmo

TinySA Ultra is limited to 450 scan points unless you use the "scanraw" command.? Unfortunately, tinySA.py does not have a switch for invoking the "scanraw" command.

Martin has a python script at? ?? which does use the "scanraw" command for saving a csv file with greater than 450 points.

Herb
Re: Error in the Python program tinySA.py #bug_report

 

On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 10:21 PM, Kimmo wrote:

I need a Python program, in Linux / Ubuntu, that can be used to control tinySA so that I can make continuous sweeps with the tinySA.

? Give QtTinySA a try.? It is located at? ?? and is actively supported by the author.

Herb
Error in the Python program tinySA.py #bug_report

 


I need a Python program, in Linux / Ubuntu, that can be used to control tinySA so that I can make continuous sweeps with the tinySA.
I was testing the program tinySA.py, available at
http://athome.kaashoek.com/tinySA/python/

It works fine when using with a command like
> ./tinySA.py -S 50e6 -E 500e6? -o aa.csv?? ? ? ? ? ? (sweeping between 50-500 MHz and saving the data into aa.csv, with 450 scan points)
However, if using a command
> ./tinySA.py -S 50e6 -E 500e6 -N 500? -o aa.csv ? ? (same as above but using 500 scan points)
there is an error message

Traceback (most recent call last):
? File "./tinySA.py", line 306, in <module>
??? nv.writeCSV(s,opt.save)
? File "./tinySA.py", line 239, in writeCSV
??? print("%d, "%self.frequencies[i], "%2.2f"%x[i], file=f)
IndexError: index 500 is out of bounds for axis 0 with size 500

Can somebody tell how to fix this error ?
After that, I can try to modify the program so that it makes continuous sweeps.

Cheers, Kimmo






Re: Ultra Calibration, Auto & Manual

 

Thanks Erik.

Yep, I had the wrong info, it was my bad. I got -25dBm from the tinySA. Ultra is -35.6dBm (MODE --> CAL OUTPUT)
I had level adjusted the fundamental (marker) up to -25dBm, which was wrong, and I found that doing another self test it fails many tests with "bad level" messages.

With it back to normal, my 30Mhz cal toggles between -35.6 and -35.7, so I think it's good right there.
Re: New FW release: Bug solved: crash after boot when waterfall is enabled

 

I had to it with STM32CubeProgrammer.? At first TinySA exe seemed to work, but when I had to retry, it couldn't connectto NanoSA.
Re: New FW release: Bug solved: crash after boot when waterfall is enabled

 

It's in the Wiki.



73

-Jim
NU0C

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 07:12:22 -0700
"Leif M" <leif.michaelsson@...> wrote:

One? question: How to put SA? Ultra in? a DFU mode. I did not find that info anywhere.
Re: New FW release: Bug solved: crash after boot when waterfall is enabled

 

On 12/10/2023 15:12, Leif M wrote:
One? question: How to put SA? Ultra in? a DFU mode. I did not find that info
anywhere.
Depress the jog wheel while switching on.

David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web:
Email: davidtaylor@...
Twitter: @gm8arv
Re: New FW release: Bug solved: crash after boot when waterfall is enabled

 

One? question: How to put SA? Ultra in? a DFU mode. I did not find that info anywhere.
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