tinysa@groups.io | Messages

Re: How to stop or abort an ongoing scan or scanraw command?

#19479

Hi Simon,

Thanks for pointing us to the right answer. The command works well without any issues.

Kind regards,
Juan, M0WWA

#19478

On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:18 PM, VK3DPM Dave wrote:

I like your test and description, however I suggest at least a 10W 1st attenuator, should have at least double the power capability as attenuators can get hot and their resistance / attenuation can also change.

Agreed. But for the sake of completeness I was actually using a 10w 1st attenuator, not a 5w

as I previously stated (my typo). Actually the 10w version looks like the 5w version but just

with an added heatsink shimmed on to it ;-)

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The 10w 1st attenuator is actually raised a few degrees too.

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I also note with your baofeng test that you measure -31.6dBm if you add the 70dB of attenuation means the input power to the 1st attenuator is 38.4dBm which is around 6.9W. Something isn't right, I doubt a 5W handheld puts out nearly?7W, mine certainly doesn't. If everything is correct then your first attenuator is being overloaded which is not good.

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The plots were a simple *average* of four sample, no max hold.

I just held the PTT until the plot was stable "enough" for a quick

check. That probably accounts for the approx 1.5db variation.

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Just for fun I did do a quick check of my Yaesu VX7R using slightly

tweaked Tiny SA Ultra params.

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That rig was cleaner, worst sprog was down at the -65db level.

But then again it did cost about 15x as much ;-))

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73 de Andy

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Re: dfu-util warnings and errors (ZS405 and ZS407)

#19477

Steps are OK although?I don't understand why you would need to erase the flash memory.

Other people that did need to erase?

--

Designer of the tinySA
For more info go to

Re: Attenuation for Ultra

#19476

I've tested (S21) all my attenuators (most inexpensive from Amazon) with a nanoVNA. They are all pretty flat across their stated range...?

Re: Attenuation for Ultra

#19475

I see plenty of spurious crap around any Baofeng principle frequency even with 80 dB attenuation, and that's when putting out only 1 Watt! MEASURE>HARMONIC works fine also. A very sensitive unit the ultra! It may, in theory, be more than optimum, but it produces consistently comparable results with different radios... Give it a try just to see what happens...

Re: dfu-util warnings and errors (ZS405 and ZS407)

#19474

I uploaded the shell script to Files.

dfu-util warnings and errors (ZS405 and ZS407)

#19473

Hello Erick,

?

I was trying to update the both units today with latest tinySA4_v1.4-196-g1e9c187.bin

Following your your Firmware Upgrade page I did run

$ dfu-util -a 0 -s 0x08000000:leave -D ?tinySA4_v1.4-196-g1e9c187.bin

This produced following output. The bottom output if from my shell script wit reset steps.

dfu-util 0.11

?

This program is Free Software and has ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY

Please report bugs to http://sourceforge.net/p/dfu-util/tickets/

?

dfu-util: Warning: Invalid DFU suffix signature

dfu-util: A valid DFU suffix will be required in a future dfu-util release

Opening DFU capable USB device...

Device ID 0483:df11

Device DFU version 011a

Claiming USB DFU Interface...

Setting Alternate Interface #0 ...

Determining device status...

DFU state(10) = dfuERROR, status(10) = Device's firmware is corrupt. It cannot return to run-time (non-DFU) operations

Clearing status

Determining device status...

DFU state(2) = dfuIDLE, status(0) = No error condition is present

DFU mode device DFU version 011a

Device returned transfer size 2048

DfuSe interface name: "Internal Flash? "

Downloading element to address = 0x08000000, size = 186256

Erase ? [=========================] 100% ? ? ? 186256 bytes

Erase? ? done.

Download [=========================] 100% ? ? ? 186256 bytes

Download done.

File downloaded successfully

Submitting leave request...

Transitioning to dfuMANIFEST state

Reset & Calibrarion

# Connect a loop cable to CH0 and CH1 #

1. Config / Self Test

2. Config / More / Clear Config: 1234

3. Config / Level Cal / Reset Calibration

4. Config / Level Cal / Select Range

5. Config / Self Test

As you see I am running version 0.11 on my MacOS 15.3. The interesting lines are

dfu-util: Warning: Invalid DFU suffix signature

dfu-util: A valid DFU suffix will be required in a future dfu-util release

and?

DFU state(10) = dfuERROR, status(10) = Device's firmware is corrupt. It cannot return to run-time (non-DFU) operations

The first one I fixed by running and when refreshing the first message was gone.

$ dfu-suffix -a? tinySA4_v1.4-196-g1e9c187.bin -v 0483 -p df11 -d 0100

Then I did try to erase flash by running putting the device back DFU mode

?$ dfu-util -a 0 -s 0x08000000:mass-erase:force

Which produced following output

Opening DFU capable USB device...

Device ID 0483:df11

Device DFU version 011a

Claiming USB DFU Interface...

Setting Alternate Interface #0 ...

Determining device status...

DFU state(10) = dfuERROR, status(10) = Device's firmware is corrupt. It cannot return to run-time (non-DFU) operations

Clearing status

Determining device status...

DFU state(2) = dfuIDLE, status(0) = No error condition is present

DFU mode device DFU version 011a

Device returned transfer size 2048

DfuSe interface name: "Internal Flash? "

Performing mass erase, this can take a moment

Next I did try to flush again which produced a better result

Match vendor ID from file: 0483

Match product ID from file: df11

Opening DFU capable USB device...

Device ID 0483:df11

Device DFU version 011a

Claiming USB DFU Interface...

Setting Alternate Interface #0 ...

Determining device status...

DFU state(2) = dfuIDLE, status(0) = No error condition is present

DFU mode device DFU version 011a

Device returned transfer size 2048

DfuSe interface name: "Internal Flash? "

Downloading element to address = 0x08000000, size = 186256

Erase ? [=========================] 100% ? ? ? 186256 bytes

Erase? ? done.

Download [=========================] 100% ? ? ? 186256 bytes

Download done.

File downloaded successfully

Submitting leave request...

Transitioning to dfuMANIFEST state

If you approve these steps, I can upload my shell script her to files for your approval.

Robert

Re: Attenuation for Ultra

#19472

I like your test and description, however I suggest at least a 10W 1st attenuator, should have at least double the power capability as attenuators can get hot and their resistance / attenuation can also change.

I also note with your baofeng test that you measure -31.6dBm if you add the 70dB of attenuation means the input power to the 1st attenuator is 38.4dBm which is around 6.9W. Something isn't right, I doubt a 5W handheld puts out nearly?7W, mine certainly doesn't. If everything is correct then your first attenuator is being overloaded which is not good.

Sounds like you might have some gear on hand, I suggest checking your attenuators on a VNA.

Harmonic measurement can also be tricky, as the attenuators need to be flat across the frequency measurement range, a vna is good for checking this as well.

Re: Attenuation for Ultra

#19471

On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 09:01 PM, Erik Kaashoek wrote:

The LNA reduces the spur free dynamic range of the tinySA in exchange for lowering the noise figure.

For harmonics measurements you should never enable the LNA, unless you are using a very good filter to remove the fundamental before looking at the harmonics.

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100% agree.

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Thanks Erik.

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This is my ethos, and the how I have always advised 3rd parties.

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73 de Andy

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Re: Attenuation for Ultra

#19470

On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 08:37 PM, hwalker wrote:

Leaving the LNA always enabled, even with sufficient external attenuation in front of it, is not good practice and is begging for Murphy to rear his head.

I agree.

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Leave out all potential failure nodes.

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Use more than attenuation required.

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The use some common sense regarding things like RBW and external attenuation

and as a last resort any active internal amplification if you're really trying to see down

in the farthest noise.

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We should always play safe with attenuation.

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- Andy -

Re: Attenuation for Ultra

#19469

The LNA reduces the spur free dynamic range of the tinySA in exchange for lowering the noise figure.

For harmonics measurements you should never enable the LNA, unless you are using a very good filter to remove the fundamental before looking at the harmonics.

--

Designer of the tinySA
For more info go to

Re: Attenuation for Ultra

#19468

On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 12:08 PM, Matthew Rapaport wrote:

70dB is good. I use 80. But why turn off the LNA? Not that you need it with a direct connection to the HT, but I don't think it hurts the SA to leave it on...

? ?The LNA and internal attenuator are the two components in the tinySA most prone to failure.? When the LNA is enabled, the internal attenuator is switched out and the LNA is switched in, putting the LNA directly in the path of potential destruction from accidental or careless (..read senior moment) connections.

?

If you are using a lot of external attenuation, it is better to reduce the attenuation if you need more signal gain than enabling the LNA.? The LNA is really meant to help lower the noise floor and enable the user to pull very low-level signals from out of the noise.

?

? Leaving the LNA always enabled, even with sufficient external attenuation in front of it, is not good practice and is begging for Murphy to rear his head.

?

Herb

Re: Attenuation for Ultra

#19467

On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 08:08 PM, Matthew Rapaport wrote:

70dB is good. I use 80. But why turn off the LNA? Not that you need it with a direct connection to the HT, but I don't think it hurts the SA to leave it on...

If it's not inline then it cant get screwed up with a high powered mistake.

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It's a first principle thing that I always carry in my mind.

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Besides, any active device can be "bent" or desroyed with abuse.

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If it aint needed the dont use it.

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You save on potential harm, you save on potential unwanted products ;-)

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If it aint in line then it does no harm ;-)

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Simples...

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73 de Andy

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Re: Attenuation for Ultra

#19466

70 dB of attenuation is a bit much for a 5-watt source.? 70 dB down from 5-watts is 0.0001 mW or -40 dBm.? 80 dB of attenuation is even a decade lower or 0.00001 mW or -50 dBm.? If you are measuring spurious or harmonic emissions, you're sure putting yourself at a large disadvantage.? 55 dB of attenuation is more like it which would yield -25 dBm.?

Don't just "throw" attenuation hap-hazardly at the situation.? Do your homework and apply attenuation accordingly!!

Dave - W?LEV

Virus-free.

Show quoted text

On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 8:08?PM Matthew Rapaport via <quineatal=[email protected]> wrote:

70dB is good. I use 80. But why turn off the LNA? Not that you need it with a direct connection to the HT, but I don't think it hurts the SA to leave it on...

--

Dave - W?LEV

Re: Attenuation for Ultra

#19465

70dB is good. I use 80. But why turn off the LNA? Not that you need it with a direct connection to the HT, but I don't think it hurts the SA to leave it on...

Re: Attenuation for Ultra

#19464

Resent due to send error / no edit mode available.

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--------------

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This question often gets asked.

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Here's my current test setup for measuring those ubiquitous 5w handheld rigs.

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At the antenna connector of the HT / walkie talkie I use a 5w rated 40db attenuator.

This is followed by a 2 watt rated 30db attenuator.

Both are available quite cheaply from the usual online suppliers.

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Note - good practice for newbies.

Remember that the highest power attenuator is the FIRST one to connect to a transmitter etc.

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In order to keep the input level to the Tiny SA? at? safe level I practice the following:

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1 - Turn off the Internal LNA.

2 - Connect the attenuators in the correct order. Highest power rated direct to the TX etc.

3 - For safe use of the Tiny SA products I like to use an input level of typically -25dbm or -30dbm.

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This not only ensures a level that does not induce potential spurious responses, but also

gives another level of input protection should I accidentally have the internal LNA switched on.

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In other words - if you got a 5w rig then you a safe way to use the Tiny SA is to use 70db

of attenuation without relying upon the internal attenuator. (Safer)

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4 - Using a typical sweep from say 140-1500Mhz and a wide RBW will allow you to

quickly sweep the band in a sensible time (using max hold function) whilst giving you

enough dynamic range for a basic go / no go result. For most ham radio stuff we

mostly interested in knowing if something is crap or not. So if we can see typically

some 50-60db below the carrier then we've got an answer.

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Good enough for ham radio purposes before the pedants crawl out like cockroaches.

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I've attached some screengrabs of an old Baofeng UV5R and a Quansheng UV5R Plus

(the latter is a different rig, don't confuse it with the Baofeng just becuse of the model

number!!).

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I'm NOT here to argue FCC crap, just reporting the results ok !

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Oh and just for some fun I set up my Yaesu VX7R on RX for the 2nd

harmonic of the 2m band and left it on by the window with a clear path

for a walking route, and had an audio recording device placed next to it.

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Then went for a walk with the Quansheng on 2m with it's stock rubber duck.

I made my first test transmission at 50 metres away, then approx 200m, then 500m.?

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The 2m band harmonic was never heard on the home receiver even at 50 yds.

No it's not an ISO9000 quality test but it does give us a reference to start with.

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[If you wanna debate this stuff then maybe another forum should be used]

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73 de Andy

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Re: Thanks for DFU-Buddy Software

#19462

It's amazing how well this Mac utility works...plug & play and makes updating NanoVNAs and tinySAs simple.

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73 - Dino KL?S

Re: Battery of my Tinysa Ultra expired & no new available ! Does "smart" power bank is compatible ?

#19461

Many thanks Erik !
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It is working in very excellent way ! I started to test it since you post your kind replay, but I did not write about it's success immediately preferring instead to test it continuously for enough time before writing about it's success !?
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Now I can say with trust that this power bank really suitable for our sensitive equipment without risk to damage them !
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Erik you really save me, because no any express logistic method accept to ship lithium ion batteries (as stand alone package) to my country even from AliExpress or Alibaba ......

Re: Using TinySA and NanoVNA in RF

#19459

From what I read in the service manual, all swept measurement are with RF in and measurement out at the same frequency. That's work that should be easy to do with a VNA as there is no frequency translation. Issue is perhaps the loading of the circuit. The VNA is 50 Ohm input. You can put a series resistor in series with the VNA input to increase the impedance. It depends on the circuit output impedance what is acceptable. Perhaps even add AC decoupling if needed. 1K series resistance attenuates the measured signal by 26.4dB but the passband shape should still be clearly visible.

All IF measurement seem to be done maximizing the S-meter reading. One measurement needs a frequency counter. That can be done with the scope as it's a digital one.

Although the VNA will generate a square wave, for this radio it should not matter.

I also saw an absolute measurement with at 100 dB input to adjust the S-meter. That's a huge level, depending what the unit is :-).

Re: Analog detector output in Zero span mode #feature_request

#19458

Many thanks for the quick reply - I am impressed!

?

It will be more very valuable for me if AGC in Listing mode is disabled.
Want to use tinySA in connection with developing firmware for wireless radio systems.?
Here, it is very useful to have a good RF detector that shows whether a certain frequency is being transmitted.
I can hereby see when a tramsnitter is active together with e.g. SPI communication with radio chip.

?

When can I expect a firmware update for tinySA with disabled or option to disable AGC in Listen mode?

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