Re: New Ultra FW release: Added multi trace option to multi band
On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 06:49 AM, josephlevy wrote:
The easiest for me to slow down the display is use
CONFIG>SAMPLE REP??????? (1? to 10)?? (does not 'stick'....)
I just observed that if MULTI-TRACE is enabled, then if DISPLAY->PAUSED is also enabled a TRIGGER button will appear that allows the user to cycle through each band and pause at the end of the sweep (see following figures).? This effectively solves my issue of the band cycling being too fast and not pausing to allow markers, screenshots, or saving data.  ? ?   Herb?
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Re: New Ultra FW release: trigger beep, multi band scanning and reduced waterfall height
On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 02:45 PM, Erik Kaashoek wrote:
Do you suggest a extra measurement focussing on broadband mixer measurement?
Yes, and also amplifiers, in fact any signal path that is likely to introduce non-linear distortion. My main interest is in measuring the IMD performance of amplifiers used in active antennas. Some of these have quite impressive performance figures. For example, one I measured (at the limit of my existing test rig), produced an OIP2 = +59.1dBm and OIP3? = +43.8dBm Two tone transmitter measurements are generally less taxing of the measurement chain, as the IMD products tend to be quite high level and easily observed. Measuring devices with much better performance becomes more demanding, and I don't think you could achieve it with carrier spacings in the audio frequency range. The close in phase noise would probably be too high, and it would be difficult to notch out just the test carriers in the RF domain when using such close frequency spacing. However others may disagree, and I'm always keen to find out new ways to perform such tests. Regards, Martin
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Re: New Ultra FW release: Added multi trace option to multi band
Hi
The easiest for me to slow down the display is use
CONFIG>SAMPLE REP??????? (1? to 10)?? (does not 'stick'....)
TIA? de Joe
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On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 03:45 PM, hwalker wrote:
On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 02:31 AM, Erik Kaashoek wrote:
New Ultra FW release
Version V1.4067
Changes:
- Added a MULTI TRACE option to the MULTI BAND menu. Enabling this option will scan the bands in a consecutive traces instead of scanning all bands in one trace. WARNING: at least waterfall does not work in this mode but other problems may emerge
The purpose of this release is to get feedback on this MULTI BAND feature. If you are not interested in this feature there is no need to install this new FW.
- Is it MULTI BAND usable?
- Where does it brake? (it will for sure brake certain features)
Erik,
? My comments on the MULTI=BAND option (now, IMHO, located more consistently under the "FREQUENCY" menu).
1. Reference figure below.? Each band is not given equal display points so some bands (i.e., 100k-30M) become compressed and not useable.? The X-axis annotations also start to overlap and are not useful.? If equal display points cannot be implemented for each band, then maybe a log sweep could be done so the lower frequency bands are not as compressed.? The X-axis annotations might be best displayed as B1|B2|B3 in the example figure as suggested in a previous comment.
2. "MULTI TRACE" might be more appropriately named "Cylce Bands" or something to that effect. "MULTI TRACE" can be confused with the add trace feature, which can also be enabled in the MULT-BAND mode.
3. The "MULT TRACE" option is working but still cycles through each band too fast for me to use.? Adjusting the sweep-time using DISPLAY->SWEEP TIME does not work in MULT-BAND MODE, although SWEEP ACCURACY->PRECISE does slow the sweep down somewhat.? Reducing the RBW from 850k to 30kHz to slow down the sweep resulted in incomplete sweeps in both the MULT-BAND and MULT-TRACE modes. Better would be a manual sweep time option under the MULT-BAND menu or option to use the DISPLAY->SWEEP TIME setting.? An option to pause the sweep between cycles when?"MULT TRACE" is enabled so that markers, screenshots and trace saving can be performed is desirable.
Herb
?
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Re: New Ultra FW release: trigger beep, multi band scanning and reduced waterfall height
Martin
The oip3 measurement already uses the 2x-y signals to measure the ip3 for testing transmitters using two audio tones.? Do you suggest a extra measurement focussing on broadband mixer measurement? --
For more info on the tinySA go to https://tinysa.org/wiki/
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Re: New Ultra FW release: Added multi trace option to multi band
Erik,
? In addition to my previous comments, I just noticed that PRESET does not exit out of the MULTI-BAND mode as expected.
Herb
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Re: New Ultra FW release: Added multi trace option to multi band
On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 02:31 AM, Erik Kaashoek wrote:
New Ultra FW release
Version V1.4067
Changes:
- Added a MULTI TRACE option to the MULTI BAND menu. Enabling this option will scan the bands in a consecutive traces instead of scanning all bands in one trace. WARNING: at least waterfall does not work in this mode but other problems may emerge
The purpose of this release is to get feedback on this MULTI BAND feature. If you are not interested in this feature there is no need to install this new FW.
- Is it MULTI BAND usable?
- Where does it brake? (it will for sure brake certain features)
Erik, ? My comments on the MULTI=BAND option (now, IMHO, located more consistently under the "FREQUENCY" menu). 1. Reference figure below.? Each band is not given equal display points so some bands (i.e., 100k-30M) become compressed and not useable.? The X-axis annotations also start to overlap and are not useful.? If equal display points cannot be implemented for each band, then maybe a log sweep could be done so the lower frequency bands are not as compressed.? The X-axis annotations might be best displayed as B1|B2|B3 in the example figure as suggested in a previous comment.  2. "MULTI TRACE" might be more appropriately named "Cylce Bands" or something to that effect. "MULTI TRACE" can be confused with the add trace feature, which can also be enabled in the MULT-BAND mode. 3. The "MULT TRACE" option is working but still cycles through each band too fast for me to use.? Adjusting the sweep-time using DISPLAY->SWEEP TIME does not work in MULT-BAND MODE, although SWEEP ACCURACY->PRECISE does slow the sweep down somewhat.? Reducing the RBW from 850k to 30kHz to slow down the sweep resulted in incomplete sweeps in both the MULT-BAND and MULT-TRACE modes. Better would be a manual sweep time option under the MULT-BAND menu or option to use the DISPLAY->SWEEP TIME setting.? An option to pause the sweep between cycles when?"MULT TRACE" is enabled so that markers, screenshots and trace saving can be performed is desirable. Herb ?
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Re: New Ultra FW release: trigger beep, multi band scanning and reduced waterfall height
Hi Erik, Although Keysight have other application notes (a lot are password protected), the one in the following link is probably more applicable to the sorts of testing TinySA users would be likely to try.
For practical tests with typical hobby grade equipment, you would typically measure 2nd order products at f2 ¨C f1 and f1 + f2 and the 3rd order products at 2f1 + f2 and 2f2 + f1
This is because the other set of 2nd order at f2 - f1 is often too low in frequency, and the in-band 3rd order products at 2f1 ¨C f2 and 2f2 ¨C f1 are too close to the two test carriers, and it is difficult to notch out he tones without also notching out the much weaker 3rd order products.
Some more notes.
The big problem with these sorts of tests is determining if the IMD you are measuring is being generated in the Device Under Test (DUT) or the test instrument. A quick way to validate this is to attenuate the signal going into the Spectrum Analyser from the DUT. I normally use a 3dB attenuator for this purpose. If all of the signal levels decrease by the value of attenuation, the IMD is being produced in the DUT. If the IMD products decrease? (or increase) by a greater amount than the value of attenuation, then the Spectrum Analyser is contributing to the measured value. This is usually because the two test signals are overloading the Spectrum Analyser, and a much better notch filter is required to further reduce their signal levels. Another quick rule of thumb is that the IOP3 value of an amplifier is usually about +15dB above the 1dB compression point (or about the saturated output power) This can also be used as a confidence test that the values you have obtained are in the right 'ball park', and you haven't done something stupid in your setup. I hope this helps to provide further insight. Regards, Martin
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Re: TinySA Ultra First Setup Notes
WiKi updated --
For more info on the tinySA go to https://tinysa.org/wiki/
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Re: TinySA Ultra First Setup Notes
Indeed, see this --
For more info on the tinySA go to https://tinysa.org/wiki/
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Re: TinySA Ultra First Setup Notes
In the WIKI,? for the ULTRA I'm missing a desciption of the NF measurement "(TBD)".
Thnks,
Jos
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New Ultra FW release: Added multi trace option to multi band
New Ultra FW release Version V1.4067 Changes: - Added a MULTI TRACE option to the MULTI BAND menu. Enabling this option will scan the bands in a consecutive traces instead of scanning all bands in one trace. WARNING: at least waterfall does not work in this mode but other problems may emerge The purpose of this release is to get feedback on this MULTI BAND feature. If you are not interested in this feature there is no need to install this new FW.
- Is it MULTI BAND usable?
- Where does it brake? (it will for sure brake certain features)
--
For more info on the tinySA go to https://tinysa.org/wiki/
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Re: TinySA as an RF scope in zero span mode
Use DISPLAY/SWEEP TIME setting to reduce the sweep speed Use LEVEL/TRIGGER menu to enable a pre-trigger so the whole screen is used and set trigger to NORMAL and set the trigger level You only have limited amount of pixels horizontally some many transmissions will not fit on one screen --
For more info on the tinySA go to https://tinysa.org/wiki/
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TinySA as an RF scope in zero span mode
Hi Folks,
I recently tried to use the TinySA in zero span mode at 433.92 MHz to look at the pulse train of a remote key fob.
It does show up, but the sweep speed is too fast and? I can't get the whole train in view, nor can I figure out if I can save it on screen.
I want to be able to identify the pulse widths in order to replicate the waveforms accurately with a 433 MHz eBay module.
Does anyone have any experience with this? I cannot afford a 500 MHz and up scope.
John KC1IDN
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Re: TinySA Ultra First Setup Notes
Steve, many thanks, will update the wiki --
For more info on the tinySA go to https://tinysa.org/wiki/
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David,
Wow, you're tops, VERY nice job. Thanks.
Mike C. Sand Mtn GA
On 2/24/2023 12:00 AM, David Massey
wrote:
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Sorry, the links are in error due to having to correct the file
names and then replacing the files with the files that were
renamed.? The files you should look for are:
- TinySA Ultra Menu-Tree Chart - v1.4-49 - Updated February
23, 2023_V3.pdf
- TinySA Ultra Menu-Tree Chart - v1.4-49 - Updated February
23, 2023_V3.vsd
Just go to the Files section and sort by date so the latest files
show at the top of the list and you should see them.
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Hello Rob,
Either of these step attenuators is very portable, and you do not need to remove and replace it to change attenuation.
Neither is rated for more than 2 watts, though most other suggestions are 2 watts.
You can always put a 5 watts 6DB attenuator ahead of it.? The minimum attenuation is then 6DB.? That would reduce the power by 4 times.
I would suggest that you pick one that is fully shielded.? I have had issues with attenuators that are not fully enclosed.? Any stray RF can make its way into your measurements if not shielded.
73
Evan
AC9TU
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Re: TinySA Ultra First Setup Notes
First Use document attached
--
Steve Johnson
? ? ? K0OIL
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Hello Zack!
Here
I've bought some of these, up to 8G?
73 de Vladimir, dl7pga
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You can find SMA attenuators for a LOT cheaper than those on eBay. I have a collection of SMA attenuators that are rated to 0 through 12 GHz and 0 through 18 GHz covering 1 to 30 dB of attenuation. I think the average price I've paid for any one is about $20. I've gotten them for as cheap as $7.? I have never gotten an attenuator from eBay that didn't measure exactly as spec'd.
Zack W9SZ
Excellent selection of attenuators can be accessed at the following URL:
????
Dave - W?LEV
I have one of these:??
41 db, 5W continuous, 10W short time...
DC-200 Mcs....
Works pretty good, decent accuracy, not HP 355 but still very usable.
I think they are $25.
Regards
wb7ond
--
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Re: New Ultra FW release: trigger beep, multi band scanning and reduced waterfall height
Hi Erik,
Normally you would manually just decide upon which combination of signals you wished to use, based on the usual formula, but I guess you could set them up automatically (or choose which sets to use) as long as you know the frequencies of the test signals in use.
So for an IMD 2 & 3 test you would probably only need four or six markers in total (including the two test signals) but would maybe need to be able to select which sets of IMD products you wish to use for the measurement. The usual constraints are the operating frequency range of the item under test, and which set of 2nd and 3rd IMD products that are produced are the highest in level. You would normally do a quick check of the various sets and then just use the worst case values.?
Let me think about this and I'll try and give an example. I think there may be some manufacturers guidance notes (possibly Keysight) somewhere on-line too.
Regards,
Martin
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Mike C.
Vladimir Lebedev