?

Ron, our intent is to teach 4 sessions of 15 people each.? At least that's how we envision it working so that the sessions can be code intensive instead of lecture intensive.

Is there an outline of the CSD courses which you and Chet teach so that I could look at them to see if they might address (or be customized) to the test driven development challenges we're seeing?

Some of the challenges we've seen have been

• Database interactions - how to handle database schema version history, database volumes, and database operations
• Multi-component interaction tests (techniques to rapidly restore stateful components, etc.)
• User interface driven tests (when to use them, when to avoid them, techniques for managing their brittleness)
• Performance or throughput related tests

Mark Waite

On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 3:56 AM, Ron Jeffries ronjeffries@... [testdrivendevelopment] <testdrivendevelopment@...> wrote:

?

Hi Mark, just a thought ...

I would think that a TDD course would be about programming. Certainly mine would, with developers working in pairs.

I’d be reviewing the team’s code after frequent iterations, answering questions, and so on. I don’t see how I could possibly provide value to 60 people at once.

Generally Chet and I limit our CSD courses to 24.

On Dec 8, 2014, at 2:16 PM, Mark Waite mark.earl.waite@... [testdrivendevelopment] <testdrivendevelopment@...> wrote:

As part of that improvement effort, we'd like to have a 2-3 day on-site Advanced Test Driven Development course in April 2015 for about 60 people.

Ron Jeffries

You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake

--

Thanks!

Mark Waite

?

Hi Mark, just a thought ...

I would think that a TDD course would be about programming. Certainly mine would, with developers working in pairs.

I’d be reviewing the team’s code after frequent iterations, answering questions, and so on. I don’t see how I could possibly provide value to 60 people at once.

Generally Chet and I limit our CSD courses to 24.

On Dec 8, 2014, at 2:16 PM, Mark Waite mark.earl.waite@... [testdrivendevelopment] <testdrivendevelopment@...> wrote:

As part of that improvement effort, we'd like to have a 2-3 day on-site Advanced Test Driven Development course in April 2015 for about 60 people.

Ron Jeffries

You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. -- William Blake

?

We've spent the last year broadening and deepening the use of test driven development in our organization, with varying levels of success.

We continue to identify areas where we can further improve. ?

As part of that improvement effort, we'd like to have a 2-3 day on-site Advanced Test Driven Development course in April 2015 for about 60 people.

Any recommendations of good instructors, or well perceived courses?

ObjectMentor offers an Advanced TDD course.? The course outline looks like a good match.? Unfortunately, they aren't responding to my phone calls or e-mail messages.

--

Thanks!

Mark Waite

?

Industrial Logic does a lot of TDD training.?

Have you taken a look at IndustrialLogic.com.

Full Disclosure: I'm an employee who does training at IL.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Mark Waite mark.earl.waite@... [testdrivendevelopment] <testdrivendevelopment@...> wrote:

We've spent the last year broadening and deepening the use of test driven development in our organization, with varying levels of success.

We continue to identify areas where we can further improve. ?

As part of that improvement effort, we'd like to have a 2-3 day on-site Advanced Test Driven Development course in April 2015 for about 60 people.

Any recommendations of good instructors, or well perceived courses?

ObjectMentor offers an Advanced TDD course.? The course outline looks like a good match.? Unfortunately, they aren't responding to my phone calls or e-mail messages.

--

Thanks!

Mark Waite

--

Tim Ottinger, Anzeneer, Industrial Logic
-------------------------------------

We've spent the last year broadening and deepening the use of test driven development in our organization, with varying levels of success.

We continue to identify areas where we can further improve. ?

As part of that improvement effort, we'd like to have a 2-3 day on-site Advanced Test Driven Development course in April 2015 for about 60 people.

Any recommendations of good instructors, or well perceived courses?

ObjectMentor offers an Advanced TDD course.? The course outline looks like a good match.? Unfortunately, they aren't responding to my phone calls or e-mail messages.

--

Thanks!

Mark Waite

?

Think classes, not objects. The Equals method defined by class Franc can access member variables of class Franc.

Same as C++.

--
C. Keith Ray
* (650) 533-6535
*?
*

On 2014 Nov 11, at 8:25 AM, Aaron Carey aaronccarey@... [testdrivendevelopment] <testdrivendevelopment@...> wrote:

Hi,

I'm sorry this may be a rather stupid question, but it's been bugging me as I'm reading through Kent Beck's book 'Test-Driven Development By Example'

I think it might be my understanding of Java (I have a C++/Python background) but I was really hoping someone could clear something up!

This happens a few times in the book so far, but here's an example:

on Page 24, there's a Franc class which defines equals and sets the amount variable as a private int. Within the equals method a Franc object passed into the method has the amount variable queried. How does this work? I thought private variables couldn't be accessed outside of the object, but here you query it from another object? Is there some sort of friend class behaviour?

Thanks so much for your help!

class Franc {

? ? private int amount;

? ? Franc(int amount) {

? ? ? ? this.amount= amount;

? ? }

? ? public boolean equals(Object object) {

? ? ? ? Franc franc= (Franc) object;

? ? ? ? return amount == franc.amount;

? ? }

}

Hi,

I'm sorry this may be a rather stupid question, but it's been bugging me as I'm reading through Kent Beck's book 'Test-Driven Development By Example'

I think it might be my understanding of Java (I have a C++/Python background) but I was really hoping someone could clear something up!

This happens a few times in the book so far, but here's an example:

on Page 24, there's a Franc class which defines equals and sets the amount variable as a private int. Within the equals method a Franc object passed into the method has the amount variable queried. How does this work? I thought private variables couldn't be accessed outside of the object, but here you query it from another object? Is there some sort of friend class behaviour?

Thanks so much for your help!

class Franc {

? ? private int amount;

? ? Franc(int amount) {

? ? ? ? this.amount= amount;

? ? }

? ? public boolean equals(Object object) {

? ? ? ? Franc franc= (Franc) object;

? ? ? ? return amount == franc.amount;

? ? }

}

---

From: "Alan Baljeu alanbaljeu@... [testdrivendevelopment]"
To: "testdrivendevelopment@..."
Sent: Friday, 5 September 2014, 16:41
Subject: [TDD] Getting back into C# testing

I've been away from serious OOP programming for a while, working in Prolog, etc. ?So now I'm back, using VS2013, and starting development with a large CAD API. ?

My TDD experience has followed the old data-oriented style, testing whether a function causes the right kinds of objects to be produced, rather than testing that it invokes the right methods. ?(It makes more sense to me, that my concern is to construct the correct and very visible model, and not how that model was constructed.)

So now, given this brand-new API (which I know is well made and stable), is it a good idea to create my own classes to wrap access to the API, or is it better just to access the API directly?

Following the TDD mantra of test-first, I'm thinking about:

{

? setup the test scenario.

? do something interesting.

? check what happened.

}

I write the above in natural fashion, and then build classes and methods to match that fashion, and link those to the underlying API.

Does this all make sense? ?Shall I use the built-in test framework? ?Are there any valued innovations in the last years about software development?

?

Alan Baljeu

?

I've been away from serious OOP programming for a while, working in Prolog, etc. ?So now I'm back, using VS2013, and starting development with a large CAD API. ?

My TDD experience has followed the old data-oriented style, testing whether a function causes the right kinds of objects to be produced, rather than testing that it invokes the right methods. ?(It makes more sense to me, that my concern is to construct the correct and very visible model, and not how that model was constructed.)

So now, given this brand-new API (which I know is well made and stable), is it a good idea to create my own classes to wrap access to the API, or is it better just to access the API directly?

Following the TDD mantra of test-first, I'm thinking about:

{

? setup the test scenario.

? do something interesting.

? check what happened.

}

I write the above in natural fashion, and then build classes and methods to match that fashion, and link those to the underlying API.

Does this all make sense? ?Shall I use the built-in test framework? ?Are there any valued innovations in the last years about software development?

?

Alan Baljeu

?

I've been away from serious OOP programming for a while, working in Prolog, etc. ?So now I'm back, using VS2013, and starting development with a large CAD API. ?

My TDD experience has followed the old data-oriented style, testing whether a function causes the right kinds of objects to be produced, rather than testing that it invokes the right methods. ?(It makes more sense to me, that my concern is to construct the correct and very visible model, and not how that model was constructed.)

So now, given this brand-new API (which I know is well made and stable), is it a good idea to create my own classes to wrap access to the API, or is it better just to access the API directly?

Following the TDD mantra of test-first, I'm thinking about:

{

? setup the test scenario.

? do something interesting.

? check what happened.

}

I write the above in natural fashion, and then build classes and methods to match that fashion, and link those to the underlying API.

Does this all make sense? ?Shall I use the built-in test framework? ?Are there any valued innovations in the last years about software development?

?

Alan Baljeu