|
Re: What parts of Chattanooga did the TAG serve
Note that it is lesser track that mainline........Warren
On Sunday, July 11, 2021, 09:04:00 PM EDT, WARREN STEPHENS <wdstephens@...> wrote:
This is most likely near or perhaps on the trackage you saw. .........Warren?
On Sunday, July 11, 2021, 08:52:54 PM EDT, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:
If it is where I think you are speaking of, that is actually former Chattanooga Union Railway (steam dummy passenger trackage) later, under Southern ownership, known as the Belt Railway of Chattanooga. Remember the man that built the Chattanooga Southern (later known as TAG) also built the CURY/BRYofC and he granted CS/TAG trackage rights on the CURY/BRYofC out to the state line. The TAG mainline didn't actually start till the state line. The only tracks TAG owned north of the state line was their yard tracks and the team tracks by their general offices/freight depot at 10th and Newby St. C. E. James, the man that built both these properties, became Chattanooga's first millionaire by selling the Chattanooga Union Railway to Southern (actually Southern subsidiary Alabama Great Southern).? ? Warren
On Sunday, July 11, 2021, 08:30:49 PM EDT, Thomas Howard via groups.io <thomas.howard42@...> wrote:
There is a section of? visible rail just off Burnt Mill Road (close to St.Elmo) that has me wondering if the TAG had a spur in that area? Thanks. |
|
Re: What parts of Chattanooga did the TAG serve
This is most likely near or perhaps on the trackage you saw. .........Warren?
On Sunday, July 11, 2021, 08:52:54 PM EDT, Warren Stephens <wdstephens@...> wrote:
If it is where I think you are speaking of, that is actually former Chattanooga Union Railway (steam dummy passenger trackage) later, under Southern ownership, known as the Belt Railway of Chattanooga. Remember the man that built the Chattanooga Southern (later known as TAG) also built the CURY/BRYofC and he granted CS/TAG trackage rights on the CURY/BRYofC out to the state line. The TAG mainline didn't actually start till the state line. The only tracks TAG owned north of the state line was their yard tracks and the team tracks by their general offices/freight depot at 10th and Newby St. C. E. James, the man that built both these properties, became Chattanooga's first millionaire by selling the Chattanooga Union Railway to Southern (actually Southern subsidiary Alabama Great Southern).? ? Warren
On Sunday, July 11, 2021, 08:30:49 PM EDT, Thomas Howard via groups.io <thomas.howard42@...> wrote:
There is a section of? visible rail just off Burnt Mill Road (close to St.Elmo) that has me wondering if the TAG had a spur in that area? Thanks. |
|
Re: What parts of Chattanooga did the TAG serve
If it is where I think you are speaking of, that is actually former Chattanooga Union Railway (steam dummy passenger trackage) later, under Southern ownership, known as the Belt Railway of Chattanooga. Remember the man that built the Chattanooga Southern (later known as TAG) also built the CURY/BRYofC and he granted CS/TAG trackage rights on the CURY/BRYofC out to the state line. The TAG mainline didn't actually start till the state line. The only tracks TAG owned north of the state line was their yard tracks and the team tracks by their general offices/freight depot at 10th and Newby St. C. E. James, the man that built both these properties, became Chattanooga's first millionaire by selling the Chattanooga Union Railway to Southern (actually Southern subsidiary Alabama Great Southern).? ? Warren
On Sunday, July 11, 2021, 08:30:49 PM EDT, Thomas Howard via groups.io <thomas.howard42@...> wrote:
There is a section of? visible rail just off Burnt Mill Road (close to St.Elmo) that has me wondering if the TAG had a spur in that area? Thanks. |
|
O. B. Keister Jr.
I just reread my earlier post about TAG rail. I apologies for the spelling mistakes. My wife was calling me to supper and I pressed send before proof reading. I have made peace with the fact that there may be TAG mysteries I may never solve. One of the TAG folks that I seek to better understand is O. B. Keister Jr. My Keister was TAG president across much of the 1950s and would have been the last chief executive hired by the Coverdale estate before the railroad was sold to Garrison Siskin. There is a letter in my files from a Central of Georgia executive to Mr. Keister congratulating him on getting the job. The writer of the letter is friendly to Mr. Keister as if they were well acquainted. Sadly it doesn't tell where he came from prior to his time at TAG. His father O. B. Keister Sr. was a long-time Southern executive. Mr. Keister left TAG under less than ideal circumstances evidently. Although this is an established fact, I have never been able to find out why. I also had no idea where he landed post TAG. The University of Louisville has digitized the old Louisville & Nashville Railroad employee's magazines. I did a general TAG search there and discovered that he left TAG for a job with the L&N. At first he was a special representative for L&N in Chattanooga. He was soon made special assistant to the L&N president in Louisville. Not long thereafter he left the L&N to run a remote control locomotive company called "Transportation Services Inc." It is my understanding that the Siskins were no fan of the L&N. When the Southern arranged to buy TAG from Mr. Siskin, L&N petitioned for trackage rights. Mr. Siskin and Southern would have none of it. Could Siskin's heartburn with L&N come from Keister leaving TAG for the L&N? I would love to know Mr. Keister Jr.'s background prior to TAG and I would like to know what happened to him after the 1961 article about his remote control locomotive company. I have heard some say that a member of the Keister family was with the Tennessee Central. If anyone has any background on Mr. Keister Jr. I would sure appreciate it. I have actual copies or photocopies of most TAG annual reports. Someone showed me a copy of the one where Mr. Keister came on as president. I was unable to read or copy it and it had a short bio. I sure would love to find a copy again. If anyone knows anything about former TAG president O. B. Keister, I sure would love to hear it!? Warren? ?? |
|
TAG Rail
I came across this gem on eBay. It is mounted on what appears to be a drawer front. It has a finger pull routed into the back and there is an unstained area on the back where the drawer would have been. Stamped on the ball of the rail it says ¡°TA&G 1891 56 Lbs.¡±. The TAG predecessor Chattanooga Southern was indeed laid with 56 pound rail. Most of the railroad was constructed from Gadsden north and a portion from Chattanooga southward to reach the planned city of Kensington. The golden spike was laid when north and south construction met in the center of Pigeon Mountain tunnel. These same light rails were down till the Coverdale syndicate bought TAG in 1929. At this point the 56 pound rail was replaced with 100 pound rail. Annual reports across the 1930s had entries detailed this progress. In addition to heavier rail they laid new creosoted ties with tie plates and heavy slag ballast. At first the heavy rail was laid on curves and on grades with choice 56 pound rail relaid on tangent trackage until the entire right of way became laid with the heavy rail. As progress was maid, the TAG began to buy heavier locomotives. Starting with the GM&N mikados which were soon sold to Canadian railroad Sydney & Louisburg and the larger New York Central mikados were purchased. The heavy rails were down and the larger mikados purchased just in time for the increased traffic of WW2.
Warren |
|
Re: Garrison Siskin and Tyner
I do remember Boyce and N. Chattanooga being mentioned as well in Mr. Siskin's remarks. Very good info Tim, thanks for clearing that all up.? Warren
On Monday, June 7, 2021, 07:53:31 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:
Yes Tyner is a? separate station, as is Jersey. There was an ICC case that brought Boyce and North Chattanooga into the Chattanooga district. I had a copy of the decision but I'm not sure where I put it?
|
|
Garrison Siskin and Tyner
When Southern tried unsuccessfully to squeeze TAG out of their bridge traffic. In the mid 1950s. One of the people caught up in all the legal drama was Garrison Siskin who shortly thereafter bought TAG so he would always have a rail conduit to Republic Steel. Evidently his personal beef with Southern went beyond the dust up with TAG. Mr Siskin was a local business leader involved in promoting the area. Evidently there were new industrial districts being developed such as Tyner that Southern had agreed would be considered inside the switching limits of Greater Chattanooga. Instead Southern proposed tariffs that would place Tyner and these other new developments outside the switching limits of Chattanooga? Is modern day Tyner and the Volkswagen plant considered inside or out of greater Chattanooga in modern tariffs?
Warren |
|
TAG payroll
Just to give you something to ponder, about the reality of inflation. In 1968, the combined salary for all TAG railroad employees was less than $70,000.00! This included all 84 employees, all executives and all office folks, MofW forces and trainmen. Just a little gee whizz factoid for your Monday.
Warren |
|
Classic Trains Magazine
I got my Classic Trains Magazine in the mail today. There was an article on the NC&StL with several vintage pictures. I haven¡¯t had the time to read the accompanying text but the pics are interesting. My wife¡¯s great grandfather was an NC&StL freight conductor. He died of natural causes in Cravens Yard in Chattanooga. At any rate, a friendly connecting railroad with TAG so maybe some of you will be interested in picking up a copy.
Warren |
|
Street car right of way
Well I finally found the street car right of way Bob Sironen took me to see. There was even a historical monument. Street car tracks crossed the TAG yard at 45th street and you can see parallel cracks in the pavement in places where they simply paved over them.? The same man that built TAG also built a railroad called the Chattanooga Union Railway. He later sold this to AGS/Southern thus becoming Chattanooga's first millionaire. Under Southern ownership it was known as the Belt Railway of Chattanooga. The Belt was divided up into little snippets called "divisions". These include the Georgia, East Lake, River and Newby Divisions to name a few. TAG had trackage rights on the River Div, to the NC&StL Cravens yard and the from there Union Depot. On the Georgia Div. through the TAG yard to the state line and the Newby div. to the TAG freight depot and General office building. Does anyone have a notion about how the Belt Railway of Chattanooga operated in the early to late 20th century? Were all those grandiose division names a holdover from pre southern days? I sure would like to understand the Belt at it's traffic peak and across its decline and partial abandonment. On the southern group, there was a discussion about a proposed St. Elmo depot on the new trackage southern was building toward Lookout Mountain tunnel. Can someone enlighten me as to the proper boundaries of St. Elmo? On TAG, St. Elmo is down by the GA/TN state line. But then we all think of St. Elmo as being the environs of the Incline Railway? I assume that the boundaries must therefor run from the Incline neighborhood down to the state line? Also what are the boundaries of Alton Park? Other than Chattanooga Medicine Company, were there any industry in St. Elmo? I read once that of the Central of Georgia traffic that actually originated in greater Chattanooga, roughly 80 percent came from Alton Park. When Chattanooga contracted with the former L&N civil engineer, who had his own large engineering firm, to draw up plans to relocate the railroads out of downtown, his proposal was for the CofG to move their yard to Alton Park.? Funny thing about his relocation report, he gave a detailed report/count on freight and passenger train cars that passed through down town. TAG got credit for four passenger cars. In reality it was the Scooter motorcar's deadhead move to Union depot in the morning. Then southbound to Gadsden, then returning to Union Depot in the evening and then deadheading back to Alton Park for the night. One powered car but counted four times.? ? Warren |
|
Chattanooga Union Railway/CofG Alton Park Belt
I was never really sure but I always suspected that the Central of Georgia had constructed their spur line that ran from the CofG mainline just above the TN/GA state line, west to the industrial Alton Park neighborhood where the TAG yard was located. I have a 1917 valuation map of this spur and it clearly indicates CofG ownership. There was so much traffic in the Alton Park neighborhood that even the NC&StL built an industrial spur to the area. Turns out this is not the case. I was looking at an old 1889 atlas of Chattanooga and it lists this spur as Chattanooga Union Railway trackage. It is worth noting that the builder of TAG - C. E. James - also built the Chatt. Union RY. The Chatt. UN. RY. eventually became a Southern/AGS subsidiary known as the Chattanooga Belt Railway. At some point evidently Southern(AGS) sold the spur to CofG?? In TAG employee's timetables, the area where the CofG spur entered Alton Park and connected/crossed the TAG yard was called Doty Junction. The old Atlas shows a tract of land there called "Doty"???I have a biography of TAG builder C. E. James somewhere but I can't lay my hands on it. Perhaps his wife was named Doty? The adjacent property is listed as "James"? There was also a continuation of this CofG spur track that once it crossed the TAG yard, it wrapped around the back side of the Chattanooga Glass Co. which bordered the TAG yard on its west side. Many maps indicate that this track was CofG property but Belt Railway valuation maps indicate that it was a joint CofG/Southern(AGS) property. I had understood that the CofG had built this track in conjunction with the Southern (AGS) but the same track is shown in the 1889 atlas and is listed there as belonging to the Chatt. Union RY. Perhaps the CofG purchased an interest in this track at the same time they bought the spur from their mainline? ?When the Coverdale syndicate was rebuilding the TAG mainline from 56 pound rail to 100 pound rail, every year in the annual report, they included a chart of their progress. One year some 75 pound rail was included. As it turned out, a CofG crew got carried away and exceeded their maintenance limit and laid some of their 75 pound rail into the TAG yard. With this in mind I assume that the CofG Alton Park spur was 75 pound rail??? One of the things I just can't find anything on is CofG operations in Alton Park. I have also looked for pictures of CofG passenger trains at Terminal Station (Choo Choo) and have been skunked here too. I was discussing with someone how the junction of the Belt Railway River Division and Georgia Division just north of the TAG yard formed a wye track where TAG turned their large steam engines after they outgrew their small turntable. This sent me to my map collection to study the Belt Railway. There was also the East Lake, Boyce, St. Elmo and Citico Divisions. The Newby Division was how TAG gained access to their freight house and general office building in downtown Chattanooga. I have always wondered why the Belt was divided?in this manner? In the heyday of the Belt Railway, did AGS guys bid Belt jobs or was their a separate seniority list like there was for Chattanooga Traction folks? I wonder what of the old Belt is still active. I know the Belt into Alton Park and the old CofG spur and a portion of the East Lake line still see a little action because I have seen/photographed it. Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't TVRM own a portion of the Boyce and Citico Divisions. Just before Christmas I went by the National Cemetery to pay my respects to Bob Sironen and I noticed an active customer on the TVRM portion. How often do TVRM crews serve this customer and are there any others?? Doing a little map work, I determined our route we took the day Bob showed me the old Signal Mountain street car right of way. As you start up Signal Mountain, just as you pass the house of one of my heroes in the faith, the late Pastor Dr. Lee Roberson, you turn right. At the top of the ridge hang a right or south if you will. I'll make it back up there for a good look soon I hope.?? When you answer one Chattanooga rail question you always create ten more unanswered ones. I would have posted this to the Chattanooga list too but evidently nobody thought to create one when Yahoo groups died? The CofG list dies with Yahoo too. Hopefully someone will remedy this at some point.?? Warren d. Stephens? |
Warren Stephens
Tom Holley