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I've been debating on trying to aquire a site to put a repeater vs here on my vertically challenged tower.?
?
In the past I've found contact information & asked tower owners for space. But this was probably 18yrs or more ago. One spot almost worked out, but in the end engineers said the tower was already too loaded. So that was a no go. Then at one other site I was actually offered space, but I decided not too. Just because of location wasn't desirable to me.?
?
Then I've also heard horror stories of tower owners changing hands & Hams getting locked out & stuff turned off. ?
?
?Now here recently I decided to kick the idea around about acquiring a site again. In particular one of the sites I was almost in the door on years back but engineers said it was too loaded. I've noticed the tower has had most everything removed now. So I wonder if that might be a possibility.?
?
?What I am curious about is what all is to be expected. So I figured I'd ask here..since there might be a high probability of Hams with repeaters on towers owned by others or government organizations.?
?
?Do you have to carry insurance with having space on them? Was is difficult to get the equipment on the tower with red tape? Do you have free access to go there whenever needed with keys? Do you pay anything for the space? Do you pay anything for electricity? What do you feel helped you aquire the space?
?
?Little background about myself. I started off rock climbing in my youth. I was already into radio. Later that led to working for a tower company doing installation & tear downs of towers/equipment. This also helped fellow Hams around me. I'd donate used long runs of heliax to local clubs. Plus help put up repeaters & equipment on commercial towers for other repeater owners. Im older now & I don't do tower stuff for others anymore. Having kids & wanting to be around for them changed a few things for me. Im still willing to do tower stuff for my own projects though, just because of necessity.?
?
?I have land here. I've always wanted to just put up 120ft or more of tower of my own. Life always seems to say nope. You can't afford that now. Its a shame though. I actually live on a good size hill with nice HAAT. Radio communications do really well here. Its just having a repeater with antenna at tree levels still produces shadow areas plus foliage antennuations when leaves & greenery come back in season. Ideally having one here would be less worry I feel.?
?
?If you don't want to reply publicly here you're welcome to email me. N4fox.r@...?
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Do you have any tall buildings around ??
I've been debating on trying to aquire a site to put a repeater vs here on my vertically challenged tower.?
?
In the past I've found contact information & asked tower owners for space. But this was probably 18yrs or more ago. One spot almost worked out, but in the end engineers said the tower was already too loaded. So that was a no go. Then at one other site I was actually offered space, but I decided not too. Just because of location wasn't desirable to me.?
?
Then I've also heard horror stories of tower owners changing hands & Hams getting locked out & stuff turned off. ?
?
?Now here recently I decided to kick the idea around about acquiring a site again. In particular one of the sites I was almost in the door on years back but engineers said it was too loaded. I've noticed the tower has had most everything removed now. So I wonder if that might be a possibility.?
?
?What I am curious about is what all is to be expected. So I figured I'd ask here..since there might be a high probability of Hams with repeaters on towers owned by others or government organizations.?
?
?Do you have to carry insurance with having space on them? Was is difficult to get the equipment on the tower with red tape? Do you have free access to go there whenever needed with keys? Do you pay anything for the space? Do you pay anything for electricity? What do you feel helped you aquire the space?
?
?Little background about myself. I started off rock climbing in my youth. I was already into radio. Later that led to working for a tower company doing installation & tear downs of towers/equipment. This also helped fellow Hams around me. I'd donate used long runs of heliax to local clubs. Plus help put up repeaters & equipment on commercial towers for other repeater owners. Im older now & I don't do tower stuff for others anymore. Having kids & wanting to be around for them changed a few things for me. Im still willing to do tower stuff for my own projects though, just because of necessity.?
?
?I have land here. I've always wanted to just put up 120ft or more of tower of my own. Life always seems to say nope. You can't afford that now. Its a shame though. I actually live on a good size hill with nice HAAT. Radio communications do really well here. Its just having a repeater with antenna at tree levels still produces shadow areas plus foliage antennuations when leaves & greenery come back in season. Ideally having one here would be less worry I feel.?
?
?If you don't want to reply publicly here you're welcome to email me. N4fox.r@...?
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I do not. I live out in the country. We have horses still. So its that kind of out in the country.?
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We were fortunate enough to make connections with the local hospital.? ?Our DB-420B is atop an 85 foot building.? Our D-Star repeater is in an electrical room on the top floor. 60 foot feedline length.? Very Nice and Highly secure. Internet and Power 24/7.
I do not. I live out in the country. We have horses still. So its that kind of out in the country.?
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People skills really help.
Sometimes the city will allow the install if a approved contractor does it.
I've been debating on trying to aquire a site to put a repeater vs here on my vertically challenged tower.?
?
In the past I've found contact information & asked tower owners for space. But this was probably 18yrs or more ago. One spot almost worked out, but in the end engineers said the tower was already too loaded. So that was a no go. Then at one other site I was actually offered space, but I decided not too. Just because of location wasn't desirable to me.?
?
Then I've also heard horror stories of tower owners changing hands & Hams getting locked out & stuff turned off. ?
?
?Now here recently I decided to kick the idea around about acquiring a site again. In particular one of the sites I was almost in the door on years back but engineers said it was too loaded. I've noticed the tower has had most everything removed now. So I wonder if that might be a possibility.?
?
?What I am curious about is what all is to be expected. So I figured I'd ask here..since there might be a high probability of Hams with repeaters on towers owned by others or government organizations.?
?
?Do you have to carry insurance with having space on them? Was is difficult to get the equipment on the tower with red tape? Do you have free access to go there whenever needed with keys? Do you pay anything for the space? Do you pay anything for electricity? What do you feel helped you aquire the space?
?
?Little background about myself. I started off rock climbing in my youth. I was already into radio. Later that led to working for a tower company doing installation & tear downs of towers/equipment. This also helped fellow Hams around me. I'd donate used long runs of heliax to local clubs. Plus help put up repeaters & equipment on commercial towers for other repeater owners. Im older now & I don't do tower stuff for others anymore. Having kids & wanting to be around for them changed a few things for me. Im still willing to do tower stuff for my own projects though, just because of necessity.?
?
?I have land here. I've always wanted to just put up 120ft or more of tower of my own. Life always seems to say nope. You can't afford that now. Its a shame though. I actually live on a good size hill with nice HAAT. Radio communications do really well here. Its just having a repeater with antenna at tree levels still produces shadow areas plus foliage antennuations when leaves & greenery come back in season. Ideally having one here would be less worry I feel.?
?
?If you don't want to reply publicly here you're welcome to email me. N4fox.r@...?
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I've been involved over the last 50 years with a group that has had several 2m/440 repeaters located on 2000 foot TV towers. We were able to get sites on the towers mainly due to our leader working for the TV station's owner, and knowing who was technically competent and who wasn't.
Back in the 70's, 80's, and early 90's we could get frequent access to the tower on weekends, and once we had demonstrated our competence to the TV people, we could install and maintain everything with minimal interference to the commercial side. (I've seen some commercial 2-way equipment that made our Ham installation look like we were the gold standard).
Having a 100 Watt PA just 20 feet from a 4-dipole antenna at 1800 feet makes for great coverage.
But, as the saying goes, all good things must come to an end....
Starting in the mid-90's, they started asking for multi-million $ liability insurance and up to date yearly OSHA certification.
After that, we have had to rely on the certified people who work for the TV station for the on-site maintenance. Many of them are Hams and are willing to spend an extra hour or two after they finished whatever TV work they were doing to work on our repeaters.
As the business gets slimmed down more and more, it is getting harder for them to find time to help us.
Last year, our leader became a SK, so we lost the best representative imaginable...
Like the old saying goes.... beggars can't be choosers....
?
Mike
WB4TQD
?
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There are so many variables in this situation. I would immediately write off trying to work with any commercial?tower firms (Crown, American, Vertical Bridge, etc.) ONLY approved contractors and installation?methods, and almost a 100% chance you will need a structural analysis run.
You might have better luck with a?local radio station with a FM tower. Talk to some of the other?hams in the area, and see if there is a broadcast engineer, or possibly a 2-way tech, that are also hams. They may be able to help open some doors. If you have a relationship?with your?local EMA, they may be able?to arrange access to a county owned tower site.
In terms of access, again, I have seen everything from having a set of keys issued, to having to coordinate site visits more or less on the owner's schedule.
Some may require a liability?policy, and some sort of payment to offset the utilities.
Good luck! It is a worthy goal!
73,
Kevin,K9HX
People skills really help.
Sometimes the city will allow the install if a approved contractor does it.
I've been debating on trying to aquire a site to put a repeater vs here on my vertically challenged tower.?
?
In the past I've found contact information & asked tower owners for space. But this was probably 18yrs or more ago. One spot almost worked out, but in the end engineers said the tower was already too loaded. So that was a no go. Then at one other site I was actually offered space, but I decided not too. Just because of location wasn't desirable to me.?
?
Then I've also heard horror stories of tower owners changing hands & Hams getting locked out & stuff turned off. ?
?
?Now here recently I decided to kick the idea around about acquiring a site again. In particular one of the sites I was almost in the door on years back but engineers said it was too loaded. I've noticed the tower has had most everything removed now. So I wonder if that might be a possibility.?
?
?What I am curious about is what all is to be expected. So I figured I'd ask here..since there might be a high probability of Hams with repeaters on towers owned by others or government organizations.?
?
?Do you have to carry insurance with having space on them? Was is difficult to get the equipment on the tower with red tape? Do you have free access to go there whenever needed with keys? Do you pay anything for the space? Do you pay anything for electricity? What do you feel helped you aquire the space?
?
?Little background about myself. I started off rock climbing in my youth. I was already into radio. Later that led to working for a tower company doing installation & tear downs of towers/equipment. This also helped fellow Hams around me. I'd donate used long runs of heliax to local clubs. Plus help put up repeaters & equipment on commercial towers for other repeater owners. Im older now & I don't do tower stuff for others anymore. Having kids & wanting to be around for them changed a few things for me. Im still willing to do tower stuff for my own projects though, just because of necessity.?
?
?I have land here. I've always wanted to just put up 120ft or more of tower of my own. Life always seems to say nope. You can't afford that now. Its a shame though. I actually live on a good size hill with nice HAAT. Radio communications do really well here. Its just having a repeater with antenna at tree levels still produces shadow areas plus foliage antennuations when leaves & greenery come back in season. Ideally having one here would be less worry I feel.?
?
?If you don't want to reply publicly here you're welcome to email me. N4fox.r@...?
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"If you have a relationship with your local EMA" It never hurts to also have support letters - emergency manager, sheriff, fire chief. One time when I was trying to get a site I had a meeting with the fire chief (I don't think the meeting was even related). I mentioned what I was trying to do. While I was sitting there he picked up the phone and called the site manager and told him what I wanted to do. I heard the chief say that it would be a really good thing. The phone call wasn't more than about 2 minutes. When he got off the phone he told me the site manager also thought it would be a good thing.
Mick - W7CAT
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Berlen via groups.io" To: [email protected]Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2025 01:55:52 PM Subject: Re: [repeater-builder] Getting tower sites for amateur repeaters. There are so many variables in this situation. I would immediately write
off trying to work with any commercial tower firms (Crown, American,
Vertical Bridge, etc.) ONLY approved contractors and installation methods, and almost a 100% chance you will need a structural analysis run.
You might have better luck with a local radio station with a FM tower. Talk to some of the other hams in the area, and see if there is a broadcast
engineer, or possibly a 2-way tech, that are also hams. They may be able to help open some doors. If you have a relationship with your local EMA, they may be able to arrange access to a county owned tower site.
In terms of access, again, I have seen everything from having a set of keys issued, to having to coordinate site visits more or less on the owner's
schedule.
Some may require a liability policy, and some sort of payment to offset the utilities.
Good luck! It is a worthy goal!
73,
Kevin,K9HX
On Thu, May 29, 2025 at 3:35?PM KB9LFZ via groups.io > [email protected]> wrote:
People skills really help.
Sometimes the city will allow the install if a approved contractor
does it.
On Thu, May 29, 2025, 13:10 N4FOX via groups.io > >
[email protected]> wrote:
I've been debating on trying to aquire a site to put a repeater vs
here on my vertically challenged tower.
In the past I've found contact information & asked tower owners for
space. But this was probably 18yrs or more ago. One spot almost
worked out, but in the end engineers said the tower was already too loaded. So
that was a no go. Then at one other site I was actually offered space, but
I decided not too. Just because of location wasn't desirable to me.
Then I've also heard horror stories of tower owners changing hands
& Hams getting locked out & stuff turned off. ?
Now here recently I decided to kick the idea around about acquiring a
site again. In particular one of the sites I was almost in the
door on years back but engineers said it was too loaded. I've noticed the
tower has had most everything removed now. So I wonder if that might be a
possibility.
What I am curious about is what all is to be expected. So I
figured I'd ask here..since there might be a high probability of Hams with
repeaters on towers owned by others or government organizations.
Do you have to carry insurance with having space on them? Was is
difficult to get the equipment on the tower with red tape? Do you
have free access to go there whenever needed with keys? Do you pay anything
for the space? Do you pay anything for electricity? What do you feel
helped you aquire the space?
Little background about myself. I started off rock climbing in my
youth. I was already into radio. Later that led to working for a tower
company doing installation & tear downs of towers/equipment. This also helped
fellow Hams around me. I'd donate used long runs of heliax to
local clubs. Plus help put up repeaters & equipment on commercial towers for other
repeater owners. Im older now & I don't do tower stuff for others
anymore. Having kids & wanting to be around for them changed a few things
for me. Im still willing to do tower stuff for my own projects though, just
because of necessity.
I have land here. I've always wanted to just put up 120ft or more of
tower of my own. Life always seems to say nope. You can't afford
that now. Its a shame though. I actually live on a good size hill with nice
HAAT. Radio communications do really well here. Its just having a
repeater with antenna at tree levels still produces shadow areas plus foliage
antennuations when leaves & greenery come back in season. Ideally
having one here would be less worry I feel.
If you don't want to reply publicly here you're welcome to email me.
N4fox.r@...
-- Untitled Document
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Before I retired I was Director of Engineering for a large group of TV stations. Towers were my responsibility. I can tell you that as much as I wanted to get hams on our towers my hands were tied by two of the worst parts of the biz world, insurance companies and lawyers. The couple of times we were able to accommodate hams was where the capacity for antennas were included in tower design. And I'd give the group a zero dollar lease that I could terminate with 30 day notice if I had a paying customer. Heck, even for my own repeater back in the 80's in Austin the only way I was able to get on our tower (I was chief engineer at this station at the time) was when a paging company abandoned their antenna/line on our tower. During a lamp changing session I had the guy doing the work to swap their antenna for my Stationmaster. But more and more as insurance was dictating and our own lawyers looking over our shoulder the deal was this: anything going on the tower needed a structural analysis. If changes were needed to accommodate the antenna the "customer" was responsible for paying for the mods. Climbers needed big insurance and the tenant needed insurance. That's just the way things went.?
?
And if you look at the tower and figure? the antenna and line won't hurt you can be very wrong.?
?
What didn't help me was my experience in 1996 when I was in DFW and having work done on one of our 1500' towers in Cedar Hill that a tower crew made an error hoisting their "gin pole" and with three guys on the tower collapsed the tower, three dead. I had engineering done on it but the crew made a mistake and the tower came down. THAT one error cost a huge amount of money, insurance didn't quite cover all since our tenants sued us, the deceased's families sued us. And we sued the tower company. Who won? The lawyers. I met many lawyers I could have lived better not knowing (except ours-he was a shark). Met OSHA people. It was ugly. And then we needed to build a new tower. Not cheap
?
Add into this the fact that it was a "thing" back 15 years ago for stations to sell their towers to companied like American Tower, then lease it back (never made any sense to me) so many towers that were locally controlled were now corporately managed. More damned lawyers. Companied like this now control towers, rooftops, water tanks, etc. I've been wanting a site for one of my 900 mhz repeaters here in Ft. Worth area. Just not happening. My other one is on a tower that had an abandoned paging antenna and not managed by the corporate world.?
?
GeorgeC W2DB
?
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I appreciate everyones input. Lots of good information & lessons learned from your experiences.?
?
?
?Let me throw another idea out here. Im not saying this is an option for myself. Just brainstorming. Let's say a government owned tower has quit being used. They remove the equipment from it. Then take it down. I say this because I've seen it happen at other sites. What "IF" big if. You were able to ask them to just sell you that small lot of land & leave the tower on it? Would that be possible? Then IF that were even possible. Is there legal things you have to do to own a tower? Im talking just over 200ft side. So I know I'd have to likey register it & ha e lights etc. But what's involved in owning something like that??
?
Now this is just a pipe dream idea. I am curious though in what is required in tower ownership of something larger than your typical rohn 25/45 190 footers.
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George, I think that the idea of selling the tower to another company is to insulate the company that sells the tower from all the liability. Where before you had this tower and all this liability, now you have a fixed cost with almost no liability. It's the more lawyers problem.
On Fri, May 30, 2025 at 2:06?PM George Csahanin via <george= [email protected]> wrote: Before I retired I was Director of Engineering for a large group of TV stations. Towers were my responsibility. I can tell you that as much as I wanted to get hams on our towers my hands were tied by two of the worst parts of the biz world, insurance companies and lawyers. The couple of times we were able to accommodate hams was where the capacity for antennas were included in tower design. And I'd give the group a zero dollar lease that I could terminate with 30 day notice if I had a paying customer. Heck, even for my own repeater back in the 80's in Austin the only way I was able to get on our tower (I was chief engineer at this station at the time) was when a paging company abandoned their antenna/line on our tower. During a lamp changing session I had the guy doing the work to swap their antenna for my Stationmaster. But more and more as insurance was dictating and our own lawyers looking over our shoulder the deal was this: anything going on the tower needed a structural analysis. If changes were needed to accommodate the antenna the "customer" was responsible for paying for the mods. Climbers needed big insurance and the tenant needed insurance. That's just the way things went.?
?
And if you look at the tower and figure? the antenna and line won't hurt you can be very wrong.?
?
What didn't help me was my experience in 1996 when I was in DFW and having work done on one of our 1500' towers in Cedar Hill that a tower crew made an error hoisting their "gin pole" and with three guys on the tower collapsed the tower, three dead. I had engineering done on it but the crew made a mistake and the tower came down. THAT one error cost a huge amount of money, insurance didn't quite cover all since our tenants sued us, the deceased's families sued us. And we sued the tower company. Who won? The lawyers. I met many lawyers I could have lived better not knowing (except ours-he was a shark). Met OSHA people. It was ugly. And then we needed to build a new tower. Not cheap
?
Add into this the fact that it was a "thing" back 15 years ago for stations to sell their towers to companied like American Tower, then lease it back (never made any sense to me) so many towers that were locally controlled were now corporately managed. More damned lawyers. Companied like this now control towers, rooftops, water tanks, etc. I've been wanting a site for one of my 900 mhz repeaters here in Ft. Worth area. Just not happening. My other one is on a tower that had an abandoned paging antenna and not managed by the corporate world.?
?
GeorgeC W2DB
?
-- John Kreno
The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either¡ªbut right through every human heart¡ªand through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained. And even in the best of all hearts, there remains ¡ an unuprooted small corner of evil. - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Well, we avoided it, were talking to Crown, ATC, etc. But they I showed how much revenue we were getting from our towers by leasing space. The sale idea went away. The best tenants were the FBI. Thay paid huge. And then the stuff after 9/11 where (I forget what it was called) building out a nationwide network the G's contractor offered at one site $250K/year for a simple two way radio antenna.?
?
The way selling off towers was looked at was to get cash in as broadcast revenues were falling (fewer viewers due to more choices, etc)
GeorgeC
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bring buckets of $$. Tower maintenance and insurance will? eat your lunch. The kooks trying to climb and jump off the tower, people claiming you are irradiating their unborn, etc.?
Headaches
GeorgeC
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Possible but you would?have to come up with a massive liability insurance policy...they are not cheap to maintain...especially if it needs to be painted or lit day/night if over 200ft)
I was lucky recently...one tower I was looking at was owned by someone in Abilene Texas I had dealt with before...I contacted him and found he had just sold the tower to another company (1st tower acquisition for the new owner)...I got ahold of the current owner and told him my background and that Warren, the previous owner, suggested I contact?him. I NOW manage the site....and installed a 2m rptr on it (combined with an existing 151.xxx VHF simplex base)..I sent him pics, installed new locks on the gate and buildings to secure them, told him the meth heads had stripped a lot of Heliax but left the antennas and likely the tower light cables off the stick...He asked me to make a list of all that needed to be done. I called the FAA and got a NOTAM issued as well.. When the tower crew shows up to repair the lights, I intend to load this puppy up with Heliax runs to the antennas (DB420, DB410, lowband and more)..this is what individual/small tower operators like to see..Luckily me knowing the previous owner, and had a rptr on another tower of his after I moved my then employer UHF Quantar to a new site, in SW LA, helped...
I also found a site thanks to a contact in Houston who was consulting for a management tower company. He gave me the local contact and I got with him...he was more than happy to get me access to the sites in exchange for watching over them....in fact the company was concerned about the electric cost but I told him other than the air conditioning needed anyway, my system would probably pull less than $50/month if it was keyed 24/7. He chuckled and said "Oh I can waive that with corporate!"
So I have a 280ft former ATT MW site and a 400ft former FAA microwave site under my belt as well this 420ft one...
Get a 501C3 and use the write off idea on them...they donate the space and can take the tax deduction....(maybe 300-400 a month but its worth the try)....My oldest site I have been on for over 10 yrs...I wont say who owns it but the site manager at the time let me use some abandoned?runs and antennas after I repaired some electrical issues there. I asked him if we needed to do any paperwork and he said no, he would note it in the site inventory sheets so we were both covered...I wonder if the tower should ever sell, the new owner might push me off...but I doubt it., its not heavily loaded...and now I mantain?a LPTV on the tower for a consulting engineer out of California and I get paid for that plus get use of their cable internet feed for my Allstar node .(It's really who you know and catching them at the right time lol)
Chris WB5ITT
I appreciate everyones input. Lots of good information & lessons learned from your experiences.?
?
?
?Let me throw another idea out here. Im not saying this is an option for myself. Just brainstorming. Let's say a government owned tower has quit being used. They remove the equipment from it. Then take it down. I say this because I've seen it happen at other sites. What "IF" big if. You were able to ask them to just sell you that small lot of land & leave the tower on it? Would that be possible? Then IF that were even possible. Is there legal things you have to do to own a tower? Im talking just over 200ft side. So I know I'd have to likey register it & ha e lights etc. But what's involved in owning something like that??
?
Now this is just a pipe dream idea. I am curious though in what is required in tower ownership of something larger than your typical rohn 25/45 190 footers.
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Some things that come to mind include: You're going to need to maintain it and the property, which might require having it inspected/evaluated to see if it's even structurally sound. Likewise for the fencing that keeps the public and wildlife away. There will likely be property tax to be paid yearly. There will be liability insurance needed that likely would hinge on inspection/evaluation. There may be repairs needed, including a fresh pain job, or adding modern strobes to replace the red beacons. Licensed professionals to do the above are not a small expense.
Even if you were "gifted" the property and tower facility, there will be expenses... p.s. a lawyer of your own to make sure you are not signing your life away might be a good investment...
Ken W0KAH
I appreciate everyones input. Lots of good information & lessons learned from your experiences.?
?
?
?Let me throw another idea out here. Im not saying this is an option for myself. Just brainstorming. Let's say a government owned tower has quit being used. They remove the equipment from it. Then take it down. I say this because I've seen it happen at other sites. What "IF" big if. You were able to ask them to just sell you that small lot of land & leave the tower on it? Would that be possible? Then IF that were even possible. Is there legal things you have to do to own a tower? Im talking just over 200ft side. So I know I'd have to likey register it & ha e lights etc. But what's involved in owning something like that??
?
Now this is just a pipe dream idea. I am curious though in what is required in tower ownership of something larger than your typical rohn 25/45 190 footers.
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I don't? know anything about tower management, but I would suggest that if you were to undertake something like this that involves liability issues, that you form an LLC and have the LLC own the assets, and not you personally.? One purpose of doing so is to limit your own personal liability.? Have an attorney set up the LLC for you, and not use a website LLC DIY type of thing, to ensure that the LLC is effective in shielding you from personal liability.
?
Paul, ad7i
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N4FOX
KB9LFZ
Chris Boone WB5ITT
Ken W0KAH
ad7i RADIO