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Maybe out of context of this group but I'm looking for some intelligent answers.
Anyone know of a "good" whip for HT use? ?Dual band would be nice, but better yet a triband better. ?I' tried a few models from Diamond, Comet and some "white box" ones from China.
However, the return loss is poor to unusable in the area of 8 ~ 0 db respectively. I have more results on the web site, but don't wanna bore the readers.?
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
Hi Karl,
I don't really use return loss to gauge an HT antenna.? Mainly because it depends on a lot of factors:? How close antenna is to face, how the hand is holding, anything else it's close to, etc.
But what I have done, is use multiple repeaters distant repeaters as a test.
You didn't specify band, and I only tested UHF, because that is all I use.? And If I recall correctly, I tested about 12 antennas (certainly not all!)
My best short duck was the Comet SMA209.?? It has out performed every other I have tested except the Yaesu one.
That better one was one was a Yaesu VX2 antenna (probably used on some other models as well).? Once I measured how well they worked, I ordered 10 of them.?? They are NLA, but probably some of the current models maybe not made in China are decent.
I did not test any of those ridiculously long antennas that you people walking around with at hamfests that almost poke you in the eye from their hip.? I would stack up my SMA209 against any of them on UHF though.
Andy Zorca WJ9J
Maybe out of context of this group but I'm looking for some intelligent answers.
Anyone know of a "good" whip for HT use?? Dual band would be nice, but better yet a triband better.? I' tried a few models from Diamond, Comet and some "white box" ones from China.
However, the return loss is poor to unusable in the area of 8 ~ 0 db respectively. I have more results on the web site, but don't wanna bore the readers.?
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
Karl, my experience is you can't get one without the other. Convenience?comes with a price IMHO.? For me it's a handheld. I've seen the numbers on effective radiation and ant efficiency. I look the other way and care more about battery life. We have a big marathon run in DC every year. For the hundred or so volunteers that line the race route we recommend a "Tiger Tail" which does wonders for the poor ant performance of most handheld ants.? For even better performance we recommend a push pole with an ant mounted on top. Elevation gain is a real thing even at street level!
Site of interest: . ?
Good Luck, dave wa3gin
Maybe out of context of this group but I'm looking for some intelligent answers.
Anyone know of a "good" whip for HT use?? Dual band would be nice, but better yet a triband better.? I' tried a few models from Diamond, Comet and some "white box" ones from China.
However, the return loss is poor to unusable in the area of 8 ~ 0 db respectively. I have more results on the web site, but don't wanna bore the readers.?
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
Thanks for the responsed guys. ?I'm concerned about PA damage if there's high return.? My stock whip for my TH-F6 has fair to good return loss. That Comet was about 0 on one band.
When I said "tri-band" (above) I do maint. work on 2, 1.25 abd .7 meter bands.? Details on the web site.
.
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
At 2/20/2025 12:09 PM, you wrote:
Hi Karl,
I don't really use return loss to gauge an HT antenna.?? Mainly
because it depends on a lot of factors:?? How close antenna is to
face, how the hand is holding, anything else it's close to, etc.
But what I have done, is use multiple repeaters distant repeaters as a
test.
Also what I do: RX on the base radio while accessing the repeater with
the HT/test antenna
You didn't specify
band, and I only tested UHF, because that is all I use.?? And If I
recall correctly, I tested about 12 antennas (certainly not
all!)
I find less variability with UHF antennas because they're all relatively
broadband compared to lower bands.? OTOH there are huge differences
among 2 meter HT antennas, even among identical models: one Nagoya NA-701
I have works well on 2M, another doesn't.? This means that there's a
lot of variability in the tuning of a particular model, which is useful
to look at with a VNA as you should see a sharp resonance at 2
meters.? The ones that work poorly are actually tuned above or below
2 meters, so they're not accepting much power in band.
That better one was
one was a Yaesu VX2 antenna (probably used on some other models as
well).?? Once I measured how well they worked, I ordered 10 of
them.? ?? They are NLA, but probably some of the current models
maybe not made in China are decent.
Per the above make sure you test all of them.
I did not test any
of those ridiculously long antennas that you people walking around with
at hamfests that almost poke you in the eye from their hip.?? I
would stack up my SMA209 against any of them on UHF
though.
The long UHF gain whips may work slightly better, but again I don't see
much difference after you hit 1/4 wavelength.? Even if some of the
electrically short 440 antennas work well, I don't like the idea of
concentrating the E-field near my eyeballs.
Bob NO6B
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At 2/20/2025 12:15 PM, you wrote:
We have a big marathon run in DC
every year. For the hundred or so volunteers that line the race route we
recommend a "Tiger Tail" which does wonders for the poor ant
performance of most handheld ants.
Yes those can add 6 dB to your ERP on 2 meters; never seen one help on
440.
You don't need to buy one: a 2 ft. clip lead with one end wrapped around
the bottom of the HT 1 turn works just as well.
Bob NO6B
|
At 2/21/2025 08:50 AM, you wrote:
Thanks for the responsed
guys.? I'm concerned about PA damage if there's high return.?
My stock whip for my TH-F6 has fair to good return loss. That Comet was
about 0 on one band.
Generally the Comet antennas should be a safer bet because they're
allegedly all individually tuned.? If you come across one that's out
of band you should let their new distributor, 12 Volt Power, know about
it.
<>
When I said
"tri-band" (above) I do maint. work on 2, 1.25 abd .7 meter
bands.? Details on the web site.
I've yet to find a tri-band HT antenna that works well on all 3
bands.? The Diamond SRH320A works great on 2 & 220, but not so
well on 440, whereas the Comet HT-224 works better on 440 but a bit
lacking on 2 meters.? Again, maybe another pair of the same antennas
might perform completely different.? Also sometimes antennas perform
differently on different radio models because of the dissimilar (ground)
frame sizes.
Bob NO6B
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Karl,
What were you using to measure 0 db return loss??? It really depends on what you are trying to do.?? If you live at the repeater you are working, then a 50 ohm dummy load *may* work.
Bob,
Yes, I tested all 10.? They have also been in use now for over 20 years.
Since we are talking triband coverage, I agree, I have never seen one (even mobile) that covers all three well.??
Ken, do you have a preference on where you want it to cover well?
Andy
On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 11:50?AM Karl Shoemaker via <srg734= [email protected]> wrote: Thanks for the responsed guys.? I'm concerned about PA damage if there's high return.? My stock whip for my TH-F6 has fair to good return loss. That Comet was about 0 on one band.
When I said "tri-band" (above) I do maint. work on 2, 1.25 abd .7 meter bands.? Details on the web site.
.
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
As anyone who has been on VHF or UHF for any time realize most rubber ducks are poor antennas.? Exceptions might be UHF for 6 inches is about a 1/4 wave, but for like 2m are not so good performance wise.
?
I do ask dont most HT manufactures custom make their rubber ducks to tune to the particular HT???? That is make their HT output match closer to their own supplied antenna.
?
73,, ron, n9ee
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Bob, ?I'll have to check out the Nagoya brand as their was some discussion about that on the repeater the other day, I think.
Yes, the Q is lower because we are talking about a percentage, so yes higher bands are easier to work with. ?I still like VHF because of the longer prorogation.?
Having said that, I have a 156 mile RF link between two cities which have worked for decades, barring putting up with fades twice a year. Yes, I've consider space diversity (we did that in the microwave days for work), but my funds are limited.?
?
I did not test the VX2 antenna and may have missed others. Most of what I do, test and measure is documented on the web site, under "RF projects". ?
I find it simple just to direct folks to that page and make the effort to understand what I've done. I'm not perfect and make mistakes, but that's part of the hobby; learning.
Talking about 1/4 wave whip, I do know for mobile use it actually can be better in the mountains. ?
We, of course, are ASSuming your mobile it trying to get into a station on the hill, above you. ?Yes, out on the flats a "gain" antenna is better.?
But back to the topic of HT antennas, ?I also try to perform a field strength (in both axis) with simple and precision devices, a simple diode meter and a spec analyzer respectively.?
?
And, yes I, too, am concerned about causing eye problems. That's why I try to limit my HT use for working at the sites. And, when I do I run the lowest power setting (maybe +20 dbm).
Otherwise I prefer to use my mobile with a REAL mount on the roof, regardless if I'm using a current feed or voltage feed antenna.?
?
On the Comet brand I'm reluctant to contact for help on "defective" antennas. Typically, many companies are only concerned about making money and don't give a hoot on safely. ?
If you go to sue them they *may* pay attention, but I'm not the suing type and just go away. And do more research.?
?
Putting "ham slang" aside, the stock whip for the TH-F6 is "reasonable".? I'm suspecting many of you folks have not visited my site. Here's the results on this antenna:
?
And yes, Andy, ?I use a IFR-7550 sweeper with a return loss bridge (RLB), with (at least) two tests, I screw the DUT right on the body of the RLB, with a second test with a length of RG-142 cable and wave it around the shop, using my hand as sorta a ground plane and other thoughts I'd like to hear from the group to simulate a HT's ability to provide something in the negative part of the (AC) RF wave, etc. ?
I don't clam to know it all but have vast experience on doing things the wrong wan and right way.?
?
Yes, a "dummy" stubby will work (ie, the 1" one on Amazon) but I'd also like it to do other tasks like check coverage on the way down the hill (5,000' ASL or higher) for a rough test if downtilt, or other adjustments are working. I'm performing work with low-cost methods at this point.?
?
Ron, I suspected that for the Motorola HT-220 ones as I started out in a MSS's portable shop. ?Both hi-band and UHF stubbys worked fairly well. I even still have the adapter to covert the output to 50 ohms.?
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
After having the center pin fracture for a third time on a Kenwood factory whip for the TH-6F, I gave up and just put a Nagoya whip on it.? The HT primarily gets used in close proximity to a repeater for testing purposes. ? John Lock KF0M Kf0m@... ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Karl Shoemaker via groups.io
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2025 10:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [repeater-builder] HT whip antenna? Thanks for the responsed guys. ?I'm concerned about PA damage if there's high return.? My stock whip for my TH-F6 has fair to good return loss. That Comet was about 0 on one band. When I said "tri-band" (above) I do maint. work on 2, 1.25 abd .7 meter bands.? Details on the web site. -
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
Wow-what are you doing to it that it keeps breaking? Yikes...
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2/21/2025 4:07 PM, kf0m via groups.io wrote: After having the center pin fracture for a third time on a Kenwood factory whip for the TH-6F, I gave up and just put a Nagoya whip on it. The HT primarily gets used in close proximity to a repeater for testing purposes.
John Lock
KF0M
Kf0m@...
*From:*[email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Karl Shoemaker via groups.io
*Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2025 10:51 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [repeater-builder] HT whip antenna
Thanks for the responsed guys. ?I'm concerned about PA damage if there's high return.? My stock whip for my TH-F6 has fair to good return loss. That Comet was about 0 on one band.
When I said "tri-band" (above) I do maint. work on 2, 1.25 abd .7 meter bands.? Details on the web site.
.
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at <>
for the current email address.
|
Karl,
Return loss is only one piece of the puzzle as I am sure you know.?? A real comparison would involve rotating them in an RF chamber and testing radiation patterns.?? While return loss does tell you how much goes out and comes back, I would rather have an antenna with only 8db of return loss that put the signal out, than another that had 20db that had issues putting the signal where I wanted (at the horizon).?? The only thing I use RL for is tuning to the freq I want on the VNA, and that's only with a mobile ant.
Andy WJ9J
Bob, ?I'll have to check out the Nagoya brand as their was some discussion about that on the repeater the other day, I think.
Yes, the Q is lower because we are talking about a percentage, so yes higher bands are easier to work with.? I still like VHF because of the longer prorogation.?
Having said that, I have a 156 mile RF link between two cities which have worked for decades, barring putting up with fades twice a year. Yes, I've consider space diversity (we did that in the microwave days for work), but my funds are limited.?
?
I did not test the VX2 antenna and may have missed others. Most of what I do, test and measure is documented on the web site, under "RF projects". ?
I find it simple just to direct folks to that page and make the effort to understand what I've done. I'm not perfect and make mistakes, but that's part of the hobby; learning.
Talking about 1/4 wave whip, I do know for mobile use it actually can be better in the mountains. ?
We, of course, are ASSuming your mobile it trying to get into a station on the hill, above you.? Yes, out on the flats a "gain" antenna is better.?
But back to the topic of HT antennas, ?I also try to perform a field strength (in both axis) with simple and precision devices, a simple diode meter and a spec analyzer respectively.?
?
And, yes I, too, am concerned about causing eye problems. That's why I try to limit my HT use for working at the sites. And, when I do I run the lowest power setting (maybe +20 dbm).
Otherwise I prefer to use my mobile with a REAL mount on the roof, regardless if I'm using a current feed or voltage feed antenna.?
?
On the Comet brand I'm reluctant to contact for help on "defective" antennas. Typically, many companies are only concerned about making money and don't give a hoot on safely. ?
If you go to sue them they *may* pay attention, but I'm not the suing type and just go away. And do more research.?
?
Putting "ham slang" aside, the stock whip for the TH-F6 is "reasonable".? I'm suspecting many of you folks have not visited my site. Here's the results on this antenna:
?
And yes, Andy, ?I use a IFR-7550 sweeper with a return loss bridge (RLB), with (at least) two tests, I screw the DUT right on the body of the RLB, with a second test with a length of RG-142 cable and wave it around the shop, using my hand as sorta a ground plane and other thoughts I'd like to hear from the group to simulate a HT's ability to provide something in the negative part of the (AC) RF wave, etc. ?
I don't clam to know it all but have vast experience on doing things the wrong wan and right way.?
?
Yes, a "dummy" stubby will work (ie, the 1" one on Amazon) but I'd also like it to do other tasks like check coverage on the way down the hill (5,000' ASL or higher) for a rough test if downtilt, or other adjustments are working. I'm performing work with low-cost methods at this point.?
?
Ron, I suspected that for the Motorola HT-220 ones as I started out in a MSS's portable shop.? Both hi-band and UHF stubbys worked fairly well. I even still have the adapter to covert the output to 50 ohms.?
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
Agreed, Andy, ? ?I can't imagine a whip with one at 20 db for RL. That would be a miracle. I'd be happy with 14. ?As others said it's just a dummy load with a little leakage. ?
Having said that the stock antenna that came with my VX5R really worked well in the field.
Doug picked up one in Portland HRO back then. It was a stubby.? Way back then decades ago I did not measure RL mainly because I did not have the correct test equipment.?
Perhaps I'll contact Yahoo to see if they still carry it.
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
Yes, the VX-5R antenna was just as good as the VX2, but longer, which is the only reason I stayed with the 2.?? VX-6 ant is not as good as the one on the 5.? (again - all references are UHF)
Andy
Agreed, Andy, ? ?I can't imagine a whip with one at 20 db for RL. That would be a miracle. I'd be happy with 14.? As others said it's just a dummy load with a little leakage. ?
Having said that the stock antenna that came with my VX5R really worked well in the field.
Doug picked up one in Portland HRO back then. It was a stubby.? Way back then decades ago I did not measure RL mainly because I did not have the correct test equipment.?
Perhaps I'll contact Yahoo to see if they still carry it.
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
At 2/21/2025 02:21 PM, you wrote:
Karl,
Return loss is only one piece of the puzzle as I am sure you know.?
?? A real comparison would involve rotating them in an RF chamber
and testing radiation patterns.? ?? While return loss does tell you
how much goes out and comes back, I would rather have an antenna with
only 8db of return loss that put the signal out, than another that had
20db that had issues putting the signal where I wanted (at the horizon).?
?? The only thing I use RL for is tuning to the freq I want on the
VNA, and that's only with a mobile ant.
Don't forget that on an HT, the antenna is only half the antenna.
;)
Bob NO6B
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Karl,
?
I really like Signal Stuff's Signal Stick. Signal Stuff also supports the financial needs of HamStudy.org.
?
73,
Levi
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We (the Club) have a good thread going on as well about HT antennas.? Here's what I found the AI said (if that means anything) see attachment.
Looking at the big picture the orignal subject was meaning to what's reasonable to use on an HT (no fishing poles, please).
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
I found several more stubbys of Diamond SRH805, SRHF10 and Comet's CH-32. I'll try to report back as time permits.
If I miss this thread the results usually are on the web site in a few weeks.
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
A real comparison would involve rotating them in an RF chamber and testing radiation patterns.
We did some of that...
??
John, kx4o
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Karl Shoemaker
Dave Jordan
