Please cite your source for those of us following along.
Thank you!
?? -Adam WJ4X
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On 5/27/2025 12:30 PM, Jim Barbour via groups.io wrote: What Chuck said. A code set off by a local agency, which action causes a station in the amateur service to transmit, is illegal. Only the exceptions listed are legal-NOAA/NWS weather radio, and NASA space relays, and those only with prior approval.
On 5/26/2025 7:13 PM, Chuck via groups.io wrote:
If there are multiple codes used for the siren to be set off, you don't want them all to be used. For instance, the storm sirens in our county use two-tone and DTMF for actual activation, as well as monthly tests. Sometime those tests are not at the exact time on the day of the month they are supposed to go off. That could be confusing to repeater listeners.
Secondly, is the frequency used for the storm sirens only used for siren activation? It is in some counties. In my county, it goes out over the local fire repeaters. I have two-tone decoders set up to decode the storm alerts, much like the fire paging, and know when the sirens are activated. The five-tone DTMF tones are harder to copy, and for good reason.
For what it's worth, Part 97.113 (c) says you can't retransmit a signal onto your repeater unless it meets the following:
No station shall retransmit programs or signals emanating from any type of radio station other than an amateur station, except propagation and weather forecast information intended for use by the general public and originated from United States Government stations, and communications, including incidental music, originating on United States Government frequencies between a manned spacecraft and its associated Earth stations. Prior approval for manned spacecraft communications retransmissions must be obtained from the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Such retransmissions must be for the exclusive use of amateur radio operators. Propagation, weather forecasts, and manned spacecraft communications retransmissions may not be conducted on a regular basis, but only occasionally, as an incident of normal amateur radio communications.
Thus, the FCC rules say that only United States Government -- NOAA NWS -- broadcasts on 162 MHz can be relayed on amateur frequencies. It does not say anything about states, counties or municipalities, thus those uses are excluded.
If your intent is to only decode the five-tone DTMF string for a latch to send out an automated station, that might prove questionable because the jurisdiction licensed for the storm siren frequency technically would be keying your repeater.
You'd do much better to install a NOAA receiver at the repeater to stay within the legal limits of the law.
73,
Chuck | N2DUP
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On 5/26/2025 8:51 PM, Tom Cole via groups.io wrote: Nothing has been said about rebroadcasting anything. There doesn't need to be. It is activating a transmitter in the amateur radio service. That's enough. You need to learn how to read. Same with your beaconing non-sense.
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What Chuck said. A code set off by a local agency, which action causes a station in the amateur service to transmit, is illegal. Only the exceptions listed are legal-NOAA/NWS weather radio, and NASA space relays, and those only with prior approval.
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On 5/26/2025 7:13 PM, Chuck via groups.io wrote: If there are multiple codes used for the siren to be set off, you don't want them all to be used. For instance, the storm sirens in our county use two-tone and DTMF for actual activation, as well as monthly tests. Sometime those tests are not at the exact time on the day of the month they are supposed to go off. That could be confusing to repeater listeners.
Secondly, is the frequency used for the storm sirens only used for siren activation? It is in some counties. In my county, it goes out over the local fire repeaters. I have two-tone decoders set up to decode the storm alerts, much like the fire paging, and know when the sirens are activated. The five-tone DTMF tones are harder to copy, and for good reason.
For what it's worth, Part 97.113 (c) says you can't retransmit a signal onto your repeater unless it meets the following:
No station shall retransmit programs or signals emanating from any type of radio station other than an amateur station, except propagation and weather forecast information intended for use by the general public and originated from United States Government stations, and communications, including incidental music, originating on United States Government frequencies between a manned spacecraft and its associated Earth stations. Prior approval for manned spacecraft communications retransmissions must be obtained from the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Such retransmissions must be for the exclusive use of amateur radio operators. Propagation, weather forecasts, and manned spacecraft communications retransmissions may not be conducted on a regular basis, but only occasionally, as an incident of normal amateur radio communications.
Thus, the FCC rules say that only United States Government -- NOAA NWS -- broadcasts on 162 MHz can be relayed on amateur frequencies. It does not say anything about states, counties or municipalities, thus those uses are excluded.
If your intent is to only decode the five-tone DTMF string for a latch to send out an automated station, that might prove questionable because the jurisdiction licensed for the storm siren frequency technically would be keying your repeater.
You'd do much better to install a NOAA receiver at the repeater to stay within the legal limits of the law.
73,
Chuck | N2DUP
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Re: Desense is driving me crazy
/g/repeater-builder/topic/measuring_cable_leakage/97569318
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Re: Desense is driving me crazy
Here is what I found on coax leakage.?
https://www.repeater-builder.com/antenna/andrew/andrew-shielding-effectiveness.pdf
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Re: Desense is driving me crazy
Coupling through coax shield does happen but it is really low but not zero. ?There is leakage through the bottom covers since it¡¯s only a press fit and not a perfect fit especially after it is drilled and riveted. It¡¯s not much leakage but at the lower end of the 2m band, the preferred can length should be the 26¡± long cans that are supplied for 138 to 144 MHz frequencies. The end of the resonator is closer to the covers than at 170mhz. Having the metal of the cabinet close to the bottom covers will help coupling between the cans. Not much but you are working down at the -120dBm range with transmitting power of 50dBm. That¡¯s 170 dB difference. ?A fix maybe to use conductive aluminum or tinned copper tape to seal that crack.?
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Re: Desense is driving me crazy
?Dumb questions?it is all this testing being done at the site. Or on a work bench away from the site.? What trims the notch? A small pico trimmer cap? Seen them look good. Yet. Not be good.im seeing this post string for the first time, I read desense issue. Is the transmitter clean. No harmonics? Super flex between the cans , and repeater ? Does this happen into a dummy load or just the antenna connected? What¡¯s the isolation showing on the cans?what¡¯s the tx output?have you tried lower power? If so and it¡¯s clean , at what power does the desense start?
I¡¯m bored recovering in bed.
On Tuesday, May 27, 2025, 10:04 AM, N4FOX via groups.io <N4fox.r@...> wrote: Harold
?That's interesting. The cans are suspended in the air. So they don't touch the cabinet mostly. I'll take that into consideration though. I greatly appreciate the help in trying to help diagnose things.?
?
?Im debating on trying to re-orient the cans for a different harness layout than the one I came up with (photo below). I tried to make the rg214 flow around nicely. I did notice I have the main TX coming in & going right by the 2 & 3rd RX cavity cable. I doubt that's really much of an issue, but maybe it is & I don't realize it. This thought was born from using the TinySA Ultra as a signal generator. When I'd place it by the cables trying to get the receiver to hear the generator. I thought..we'll if I'm able to to do that..perhaps there is something happening there with the unfiltered TX line being right beside an already filtered RX line. ??¡á? likey just my mind wandering, lack of sleep & aggravation talking.?
?
?
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Re: Desense is driving me crazy
Harold
?That's interesting. The cans are suspended in the air. So they don't touch the cabinet mostly. I'll take that into consideration though. I greatly appreciate the help in trying to help diagnose things.?
?
?Im debating on trying to re-orient the cans for a different harness layout than the one I came up with (photo below). I tried to make the rg214 flow around nicely. I did notice I have the main TX coming in & going right by the 2 & 3rd RX cavity cable. I doubt that's really much of an issue, but maybe it is & I don't realize it. This thought was born from using the TinySA Ultra as a signal generator. When I'd place it by the cables trying to get the receiver to hear the generator. I thought..we'll if I'm able to to do that..perhaps there is something happening there with the unfiltered TX line being right beside an already filtered RX line. ??¡á? likey just my mind wandering, lack of sleep & aggravation talking.?
?
?
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You'l would probably need to build something, but you could use an 8870 tone decoder and take the DTMF strobe signal to feed a Latch circuit, That way you don't need an exact code.
Then use that signal to either trigger a macro on your repeater controller that can do something low-key like change your courtesy tone or tail message to say "Weather Alert" every 5th key up or so.
And you can probably program another macro to clear your latch after say 2 or 4 hours.
Thanks Mike i know the frequency they use i have not told any one i will not transmit the tones just operate a relay when the tones are decoded they will not go out over the air?
?
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Re: Desense is driving me crazy
Setting the insertion loss higher will improve the mid band isolation too.?
I forgot about the cabinet. Take them out of the cabinet. There might be some coupling through the bottom covers to the metal of the cabinet. The bottom covers are only riveted to the can in 3 places and that friction fit of the cover to cylinder might not be enough for the isolation desired for that radio.?
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Re: F/S MicroMagic UHF duplexer 6 cavity
If anyone is interested, I'll be selling?some of my 6 packs......BNC and N type connectors ......
Let me know..
Likewise, I'd be interested in the duplexer if it hasn't sold as it's on the pair most of my GMRS repeaters are on. Let me know. I can pay multiple ways.
?
73,
Chuck | N2DUP | KAB3210
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That's my point exactly Chris, that's what I was trying to say that you cannot have someone sending out DTMF tones that's going to somehow along a chain control and amateur repeater that is not legal. Chad Nelson WI9HF/WRPL979 Janesville Wisconsin 608-754-8671 Send from my spectrum iPhone 16.
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On May 26, 2025, at 9:41?PM, Chris Boone WB5ITT via groups.io <setxtelecom@...> wrote:
? NO you cannot... you cannot have a lawn amateur controlling an amateur transmitter! It doesn't matter the situation unless it's a life or death emergency for that person.
Dude I've dealt with the FCC for 40 damn years. I've have known several people in Washington as well as the local engineers in charge of both the Dallas and the Houston office. I know what I'm talking about
Chris WB5ITT? ?Chris,? ?You love to say something is illegal with nothing to back it up. You most certainly can automatically re broadcast emergency information, or in this case, broadcast a message that the emergency alert system has been activated. Cite and quote verbatim your passages to the contrary. Many systems automatically re broadcast the alerts from the NWS using the SAME codes to key the transmitter. All that is required is that the control operator can kill the transmission if needed.?
Hint, 97:113 specifically allows what he is wanting to do. Read it for comprehension, instead of with your normal bias.? On May 26, 2025, at 3:56?PM, Chris Boone WB5ITT via <setxtelecom=[email protected]> wrote:
? Having any announcement, etc on the repeater output automatically from the Wheelan siren system is not allowed under Part 97.....You?COULD change CT or something similar but it cannot key the repeater xmtr when it decodes..that is improper control of an amateur station.
Chris WB5ITT Thanks Mike i know the frequency they use i have not told any one i will not transmit the tones just operate a relay when the tones are decoded they will not go out over the air?
?
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Re: Desense is driving me crazy
Harold,
Thank for the information. I may try that here later this week. Perhaps tomorrow if I have time.
?
After cleaning all the loops & connectors, yesterday I adjusted everything to -.5db IL per cavity, -26/27 RL & -37/38 db notches. Then tried it again. It was actually better today testing. But with the 100wt PA I could still hear something a bit undesirable.
?
?Also yes you're correct, everything does just about fall into place with individual tuning then putting the harness I made on. There isn't really much that needs adjustments, just touch up a bit.?
?
So just because it was mentioned earlier about trying the original harness. I decided heck why not give that a go. Maybe it will tell me if the harness I made is problematic or not. I had to swap two cans around to go back to the factory layout. Then put it on. Adjusted the rejects with the spectrum analyzer. They needed to be moved a good bit. Then I put the vna on. The return losses were awful, -16/17db & odd looking. So after that I said screw this idea. ?. I'm not going to start playing musical rods for the passes to see if I can fix the return losses then readjust the notches again.?
?
?I had to put my test cables away & go do something else. It was starting to get way too aggravating.?
?
?
Also to Kevin,
?I think I remember you posting that part number for the harness last year when I was initially buying these cans. I appreciate you sharing that information. I just wasn't able to get information contact with anyone at Sinclair. So I ended up.making one.?
?
There is another company in Canada called JagRF that makes harnesses as well. I believe it was about $430 dollars I was quoted for one from them. Idk if that's changed now or not.?
?
Honestly with what I have invested in these cans, the harness I made & some of the equipment to make adjustments. I could of bought a brand new set of cans. ?
?
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Re: Kenwood TK790 problems
Finally got back at the radios.....?? Turns out it was only 2 radios with the transmit audio problems.
?
Testing with known good parts revealed the following......? ! All mics are good,? 2 All control heads are good,? 3 All remote cables are good.?
?
the problem is with the KRK-5 dash to remote mount adapter.? .... It will pass receive audio, allow reading and writing of radio but will not pass mic audio.? Strangest thing these problems are with radios that ARE currently installed and were working for several years. There appears to be no corrosion or anything in them, and reseating cables has no effect.?? We are going to find new plates and move on
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Just wanted to give everyone an update.
?
?
Howard
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If you say so. NOT. Have a blessed day.?
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On May 26, 2025, at 9:41?PM, Chris Boone WB5ITT via groups.io <setxtelecom@...> wrote:
? NO you cannot... you cannot have a lawn amateur controlling an amateur transmitter! It doesn't matter the situation unless it's a life or death emergency for that person.
Dude I've dealt with the FCC for 40 damn years. I've have known several people in Washington as well as the local engineers in charge of both the Dallas and the Houston office. I know what I'm talking about
Chris WB5ITT? ?Chris,? ?You love to say something is illegal with nothing to back it up. You most certainly can automatically re broadcast emergency information, or in this case, broadcast a message that the emergency alert system has been activated. Cite and quote verbatim your passages to the contrary. Many systems automatically re broadcast the alerts from the NWS using the SAME codes to key the transmitter. All that is required is that the control operator can kill the transmission if needed.?
Hint, 97:113 specifically allows what he is wanting to do. Read it for comprehension, instead of with your normal bias.? On May 26, 2025, at 3:56?PM, Chris Boone WB5ITT via <setxtelecom=[email protected]> wrote:
? Having any announcement, etc on the repeater output automatically from the Wheelan siren system is not allowed under Part 97.....You?COULD change CT or something similar but it cannot key the repeater xmtr when it decodes..that is improper control of an amateur station.
Chris WB5ITT Thanks Mike i know the frequency they use i have not told any one i will not transmit the tones just operate a relay when the tones are decoded they will not go out over the air?
?
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Re: F/S MicroMagic UHF duplexer 6 cavity
Likewise, I'd be interested in the duplexer if it hasn't sold as it's on the pair most of my GMRS repeaters are on. Let me know. I can pay multiple ways.
?
73,
Chuck | N2DUP | KAB3210
?
?
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Re: Desense is driving me crazy
If all fails and the radio needs more isolation, you can always adjust the cans for 0.7dB insertion loss and get more than 110 dB isolation. ?Tune each can for the pass and reject frequencies and since you made correct?? new cables, the notches should add without changing frequencies. Connect the 4 cans closest to the antenna and fine tune those 4 then add the 3rd can and just go with that. You can check with your equipment the best that your equipment can display and if it looks ok, connect your radio and do your desense tests. If there is still some desense, you may want to adjust the notches using a signal generator at the antenna and receiver on the equipment port for the noisiest signal. I prefer using a carrier with a 1khz tone at 3khz deviation (SINAD type signal). This will give you more dynamic range than your VNAs have. ?Do that for the rx side to reject the tx frequency and the tx side to reject the rx frequency.?
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You cannot have a Non amateur
Stupid speech to text
NO you cannot... you cannot have a lawn amateur controlling an amateur transmitter! It doesn't matter the situation unless it's a life or death emergency for that person.
Dude I've dealt with the FCC for 40 damn years. I've have known several people in Washington as well as the local engineers in charge of both the Dallas and the Houston office. I know what I'm talking about
Chris WB5ITT?
?Chris,? ?You love to say something is illegal with nothing to back it up. You most certainly can automatically re broadcast emergency information, or in this case, broadcast a message that the emergency alert system has been activated. Cite and quote verbatim your passages to the contrary. Many systems automatically re broadcast the alerts from the NWS using the SAME codes to key the transmitter. All that is required is that the control operator can kill the transmission if needed.?
Hint, 97:113 specifically allows what he is wanting to do. Read it for comprehension, instead of with your normal bias.? On May 26, 2025, at 3:56?PM, Chris Boone WB5ITT via <setxtelecom=[email protected]> wrote:
? Having any announcement, etc on the repeater output automatically from the Wheelan siren system is not allowed under Part 97.....You?COULD change CT or something similar but it cannot key the repeater xmtr when it decodes..that is improper control of an amateur station.
Chris WB5ITT Thanks Mike i know the frequency they use i have not told any one i will not transmit the tones just operate a relay when the tones are decoded they will not go out over the air?
?
|
NO you cannot... you cannot have a lawn amateur controlling an amateur transmitter! It doesn't matter the situation unless it's a life or death emergency for that person.
Dude I've dealt with the FCC for 40 damn years. I've have known several people in Washington as well as the local engineers in charge of both the Dallas and the Houston office. I know what I'm talking about
Chris WB5ITT?
?Chris,? ?You love to say something is illegal with nothing to back it up. You most certainly can automatically re broadcast emergency information, or in this case, broadcast a message that the emergency alert system has been activated. Cite and quote verbatim your passages to the contrary. Many systems automatically re broadcast the alerts from the NWS using the SAME codes to key the transmitter. All that is required is that the control operator can kill the transmission if needed.?
Hint, 97:113 specifically allows what he is wanting to do. Read it for comprehension, instead of with your normal bias.? On May 26, 2025, at 3:56?PM, Chris Boone WB5ITT via <setxtelecom=[email protected]> wrote:
? Having any announcement, etc on the repeater output automatically from the Wheelan siren system is not allowed under Part 97.....You?COULD change CT or something similar but it cannot key the repeater xmtr when it decodes..that is improper control of an amateur station.
Chris WB5ITT Thanks Mike i know the frequency they use i have not told any one i will not transmit the tones just operate a relay when the tones are decoded they will not go out over the air?
?
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Re: Desense is driving me crazy
Decades ago, when Wacom was still around, I tried to get Kit Parsons to send me to Dayton as his representative since the landmobile radio expo was the same week in Vegas. He liked the idea but his lawyers said no.. sold a lot of Wacom for Kit in Southeast Texas and Southwest Louisiana back in the 80s thru talking with other repeater owners. Was sorry to see him sell
Chris WB5ITT?
At 5/25/2025 04:08 PM, you wrote:
¡°Whats odd is I've heard several
stories about how Hams have got help from Sinclair & they were happy
to help out. One fella told me he talked to a Mr. Sinclair about some
duplexers years back. Idk if that's true or not but it sounded
nice.¡°
?
That was the past¡.? Dr. George Sinclair was a ham .? I was
there 1988 to 1991 and 2000 to 2001.? I returned the second time and
was given verbal assurance and promises that I could continue doing my
own consulting on the side but when I did, they didn¡¯t like it and I got
let go (with adequate severance). They lost their ham friendly attitude
when the hams left and when the company was sold. I know I helped many
hams during my time and they used to get 25% off list prices.
The only duplexer manufacturer that I regularly see at the Dayton
Hamvention is TX RX Systems.? If you're looking for something new I
think they're worth looking into.
Bob NO6B
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N4FOX
Chris Boone WB5ITT