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Can anyone tell me where I could find LOW priced used service monitors,
maybe something simple like signal gen and audio scope?
IFR or wavetek ? any idea's ?

I would go to the local Two Way shop. Many times they have one ready to sell
for a good price because of a recent upgrade. I have gotten several this way.

Also try this place


Kevin

Hi Dean:

On Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:11:21 -1000, Dean wrote:

Can anyone tell me where I could find LOW priced used service monitors,
maybe something simple like signal gen and audio scope? IFR or wavetek ?
any idea's ?

When I was in the market for one, I contacted the areas cellular
provider. I picked up an IFR 1500 that was about 7 years old
for less than $2500 (Canadian...about $1700 USD). The unit
was maintained yearly and is still in operation.

currently using cushman CE-5
getting kinda flukieeeee.....

Your Cushman is turning into a Fluke (hi hi). Wish one
of my IFRs would turn into a Motorola........


Tedd Doda CET

packet va3sed@va3sed
e-mail lazer@...

Can anyone tell me where I could find LOW priced used service monitors,
maybe something simple like signal gen and audio scope? IFR or wavetek ?
any idea's ?
AH6IF Dean
currently using cushman CE-5
getting kinda flukieeeee.....

Oh, what a wonderful place to put a repeater! What's the frequency going to
be? I'll look for it the next time I head down that way.

IMHO, you do NOT want to use a gain antenna! Gain antennas get their gain by
flattening the radiation pattern; the effect of using a high gain antenna at
that site will be to put 95% of the radiation over the heads of the users. I
would suggest a DB Products 4-element antenna mounted as far off the tower
as you can get with the factory standoffs; second choice would be a Celwave
Stationmaster [fiberglass - more prone to static discharge and wind noise]
with same mounting.

Regards,

.....John WB4VVA

Terry Bartholomew NQ4Y wrote:

I am on a fact finding mission, gathering information about
the pros and cons of a particular antenna design/configuration.
This antenna will be used on a VHF repeater (Monteagle, TN.)
We need near 360 degree coverage. The repeater is at 2300
feet HAMSL if downtilt should be a consideration.
I have narrowed the choices down to either an 8 or a 16 element
dipole array.

1) Would a folded dipole have more gain than a "gamma matched"
dipole? I was told that a folded dipole has 1.5dB more
gain than a standard dipole.

I don't know if it is a full 1.5 db, but due to matching efficiencies, it is
better. One thing that is definitely better with a folded dipole is
operating bandwidth, a Gamma match fed dipole is limited in bandwidth as
compared to a true folded dipole.

2) What is the best way to orient the antennas on the tower
(Rhon 25G?)
a) put them all on the same side of the tower and point
them toward the tower...

See below for an explanation.

b) put them in two groups of 8, back to back...
c) start at the top and mount them down the tower, turning
each 90 degrees from the previous...
d) put them in two groups of 8, first group of 8 over the
second group of 8, point the lower group of 8 180 degrees
of the first 8?

3) Has anyone had any experience with the Maxrad 4 element dipole
array? Or would it perform like the old cushcraft 4 element
dipole?

All comments welcome!

-Terry NQ4Y

Since you said you need "near 360 degree coverage", I'll suppose you could
stand a slight null in one direction.
In exposed dipole arrays the mounting pole has an effect on coverage. In a 4
bay array with all elements in the same direction there is a null in the
direction of the pole. In an effect to counter the null... one can turn the
elements in all four directions to try to overcome this. As you know
(because of the laws of constructive and destructive interference's)
"maximum gain" can only be achieved by having the wave frontal hit all the
elements at the same time. In low band this theory works well, but on 2
meters there starts to be a compromise in available gain when the elements
are positioned around the pole due to the wave front hitting the elements at
unequal times thus being slightly out of phase. This situation really
becomes a problem at UHF because as the frequency gets higher the phase
shift is more due to shorter wavelengths. This problem does not exist in a
"stationmaster" style antenna due to the stacking of all elements on top of
one another.

I have had much better luck when using a 4 element dipole array on 2 meters
(in omni) using the DB products theory of positioning the elements in the
north south east west approach than the north east south west approach, for
what ever reason.
[Image]

A compromise to the compromise.
If a "double dipole" style exposed array is utilized, the effect of
staggering the elements is less. Why? As I have read in my "Antenna
Engineering Handbook" (by Johnson and Jasic) the concentric center of a
double dipole array is more so the -mounting pole-. The DB 304 for 2 meters
and the DB 420 style antenna for uhf utilizes this approach and are proven
performers.

You stated that downtilt may be a consideration. If the antenna gain is 5 or
6 dBd there may be no advantage in utilizing downtilt since the -3 dB point
would be fairly close to the repeater site. As antenna gains increase, there
are advantages in using downtilt. Downtilt can be achieved in two ways.
Mechanical and electrical.
Mechanical downtilt works well when a repeater only needs to work in one
direction. (multipanel arrays not withstanding)
Electrical downtilt works well in omni patterns but there is a loss in
overall gain. A typical 10 dBd stationmaster on uhf will only have 9 dBd
when built for downtilt. 10 db commercial stationmasters in the 450-460
range work great on 440 repeaters especially when vertical beam downtilt is
required. For more info on understanding vertical beam downtilt.. Go to


Top mounted fiberglass antennas suffer from precipitation static more so
than exposed dipoles do. Go to for
more info on precipitation static.

I use a DB Products 4 bay double dipole array on a 2 meter machine. I feel
there is no advantage to this antenna over a super stationmaster except for
the lack of precip. static. [Image]

My suggestion:
Since you seem to be leaning toward the dipole array, and not knowing if you
have the availability to the top or side of the tower for mounting please go
to

The DB 228 is an antenna with many advantages you are looking for. (no image
available)

There is a load of information on mounting and expected patterns on this
site. There is also a calculator and software section at

Very useful.

The DB 228 can be set up for omni directional coverage. Because this antenna
utilizes all elements in the same direction, a whole bunch of gain is
obtained. This style antenna is used on a repeater I do some work on that
the other moderator to this list operates (Dan Ruhe KE3UC) If specific
questions need answered they can be directed to either him or I through the
list.

Hope this helps,
Kevin

Thanks for the reply's on the Master ll vs Mastr Exec ll...

This has brought up another question... Will the mobile radio work the same as the desktop? Most of the reply's I have read are dealing with desk top model's

Thanks
Mike
KF4FWZ

I am on a fact finding mission, gathering information about
the pros and cons of a particular antenna design/configuration.
This antenna will be used on a VHF repeater (Monteagle, TN.)
We need near 360 degree coverage. The repeater is at 2300
feet HAMSL if downtilt should be a consideration.
I have narrowed the choices down to either an 8 or a 16 element
dipole array.

1) Would a folded dipole have more gain than a "gamma matched"
dipole? I was told that a folded dipole has 1.5dB more
gain than a standard dipole.

2) What is the best way to orient the antennas on the tower
(Rhon 25G?)
a) put them all on the same side of the tower and point
them toward the tower...
b) put them in two groups of 8, back to back...
c) start at the top and mount them down the tower, turning
each 90 degrees from the previous...
d) put them in two groups of 8, first group of 8 over the
second group of 8, point the lower group of 8 180 degrees
of the first 8?

3) Has anyone had any experience with the Maxrad 4 element dipole
array? Or would it perform like the old cushcraft 4 element
dipole?


All comments welcome!

-Terry NQ4Y

This should start an interesting debate.

I've found the PA in Mastr (note: Mastr not Master) II Repeaters has a real
weakness where the RF leaves the board. It's an easy fix if you get to it
before the transistors fail, but it's a very frequent failure.

I have never had any such failure, what exactly happends?

I've only had one PS failure in an Exec II. No PA's yet. The Mastr II
does seem to be built a bit heavier. And if you want a LOT of power, Mastr
II is the only way to go. I don't think there's a 100 or 110 watt Exec II.

Sure is a 110 watt vers. If I run full power I use fans.

And there's better support for Mastr II. There's even a drop in
controller.
The ICOM's in a Mastr II are totally shielded. But the Exec II can use any
ICOM for any band. Nice when you're converting.

I have some Mastr II repeaters, but my work horse is an Exec II. It's also
my favorite to convert. See my conversion site:



I'm sure there's some technical problems in the Exec II that were cleared
up in the Mastr II.

If I remember correctly, the Master II came first not the Exec II. Master
II came out in eary 70's.

I was a GE Service shop and we got a Master II about a month before they
were on the market and we did a repeater mod just to see if it would have
problems. Then unmoded and installed the unit.

I like both the Exec II and Master II units for repeaters. MVP will work
but not enough room for cooling.

de Rick KK5RIC

If by any chance you mean Mastr Exec Radios (not Mastr Exec II) avoid them.
I have a couple. Real pain to work on. Not as modular as the others.
I've run one for years for one week a year, full time, for a Ham Fest info
channel. At least that PA is solid.

If there's something specific you're thinking about, let us know.

Ray, KD4BBM

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Hi Bob,

Yes the ExcII will make a great ham radio repeater. I have not finished
working up a written procedure for that unit as I am busy modifying the
Master II's.

If you can find a book for the radio, you can figure it out.

If not, I do GE modifications on Master II and Exec II's.

If you have more than one radio I will do a 2 for 1 deal if you want.

I have added some details regarding this.

de Ric KK5RIC


At 03:23 26-02-99 -0000, you wrote:

From: bshanks@...

I have found several mods for GE radios to convert them to repeaters.

Most, if not all, descibe GE Mastr II. I have a GE Mastr Executive II.
What is the difference? And, it is a UHF currently at 451.575. Will it
operate within the Ham bands, or is the conversion too complex? Any help
would be appreciated.

Thanks,



Bob

AB5UD

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Prices:

GE Master II radios can be purchased from many sources, at this time I have
a some VHF units with the UHS (pre-amp) receiver, I have some already
pre-tuned on 146.62 Tx and 146.02 Rx and already modified for repeater
operation with the internal controller.  New crystals can be cut in
3 weeks or special ordered in 15 days at an extra cost.

GE Master II VHF, or 6 Meter, unit above on any standard amateur repeater
pair tuned and ready to install controller:

$360.00

Controller with Voice $200.00

Controller for linking $250.00


For the same repeater set up, but with the radio's being furnished by you,
GE Master II on any ham repeater band:

Your GE Master II radio modified, crystaled and re-tuned on any amateur
standard ARRL repeater pair tuned and ready to install built in controller:

$150.00

Controller with Voice $200.00

Controller for linking $250.00

Your GE Master II or Exec II, radio modified, crystaled and re-tuned on any
amateur standard ARRL repeater pair tuned and a DB-9 interface cable
installed for external controller:

$180.00

Many controllers available $150 to $2000.00
Many features available.




The GE units are crystal controlled. This are repeater grade units with
very clean transmitters and the receivers have helical front ends. They
are 8 channel capable, so you could install more than one frequency pair,
at about $60 each channel. Because of the quality these units are only
good for about 1 to 1.5 MHz without re-tuning.

The controller we normally use is designed for repeater with voice Id and
messages or with CW ID and linking.

To add phone patch and or linking requires a more expensive unit and the
external DB-9 interface.

These range from $150 to $2,000.

Or use yours, I can set up radio with DB-9 connector and cable to connect
to your controller. No additional charge to set up your controller with the
repeater, but you will need to send the controller to me for that. If you
do not send your controller, you will need to provide me the Make Model and
details of RX input and TX output levels. I have this information on ACC,
CAT-1000, NHRC-2/M2, Link Com units and a few others.

Complete documentation provided of repeater modifications, and any
interface to controller. Any controllers sold will have factory
documentation provided as well. Controllers sold by us will be
pre-programmed for your system, if desired.

Repeater Band Information:

10 Meter repeaters normally will be set up as a slit site, about 1 mile
apart. This will require a 10 Meter radio and a UHF radio for a link. The
10 Meter can be a GE Master II or a Exec II and the UHF can be either of
those or an MVP. Duplexers are ava ilable from commercial vendors for 10
meter 100 Khz spacing but are very expensive.

6 Meter repeaters normally will be set up as a slit site, about 1/2 0mile
apart or single site with duplexers. Split site will require a 6 Meter
radio and a UHF radio for a link. The 6 Meter can be a GE Master II or a
Exec II and the UHF can be either of those or an MVP. Duplexers are
available from commercial vendors for 6 meter .5 or 1 MHz spacing but are
very expensive. A group in Dallas builds some great 6 meter duplexers for
a super price.

2 Meter repeaters normally will be single site and will use split antennas
or duplexers. Duplexers are readily available for 600 Khz VHF repeaters
both used and new.

If you can consider UHF, you have many more options for portable emergency
systems. But UHF GE radios are hard to find. If you have some UHF GE
Master II or Master Exec II radios I will do a 2 for 1 exchange. You send
me two working radios, and I send you a working repeater for your
controller, or you can purchase a controller from us.

UHF duplexers are very small compared to 2 meter 600 kHz duplexers. UHF
used duplexers are available used and also new. Mobile duplexers are rated
at 50 watts and many are found used at hamfests. With these mobile
duplexers on UHF you can cover close to 1 MHz of repeater band without
re-tuning the duplexers. At 25 Khz per channel that is 40 channels per MHz.

The transmitter power adjustment is available in these GE units, but you
must open the case and then remove the covers for the PA deck. Most of the
GE units in the Master II and Exec II series are in the 50 to 110 watt
versions. Unless the repeater is located in a building with air
conditioning or extra fans added for cooling, I run the 100 watt units at
50 to 60 watts and the 65 watt units at 45 watts unless extra fans are added.

In general I do not have any controls on these units. The controls are
inside the unit or the unit control head I furnish and not accessible to
the operator, except for through a small hole in the control head. An
external speaker jack is accessible.


I can build the units with the original GE control head, but you have to be
careful because the operator can change the repeater levels and squelch
settings. If you use the internal controller or some of the newer
controllers that use discriminator audio, these can be utilized with a
local control and not have any effect on the audio level. The squelch
control will effect the repeaters operation. The units may be set up for
CTCSS (PL, CG) tone operation. This will require a tone board from CES.

I can send you some pictures, by E-mail attachment in JPEG format, of some
of our recent repeaters built. Or a color brochure we have by mail.

I also have some of my 50 watt UHF mobile repeater including duplexers with
the built in controller, if you want.

I built this for RACES/ARES use and originally had a controller with phone
patch, linking, and four function relays for external control.

I ran this unit for five years and never used any of those extra bells and
whistles, so I replaced the controller with the current KISS one, but this
one has voice messages that you can record by remote control, great for
Emergency/Disaster needs. And it will also allow you to run it as a
simplex repeater if needed as well.

I also built a similar unit for 2 Meters for the Big Bend ARC in Alpine TX
for mobile/portable use. We purchased Wacom 600 kHz duplexers for this
unit and it was installed in a large Van type truck. It was used in
Saragosa Tornado about 10 years ago. It is now installed in a large Pick
Up truck metal box, weatherproof and has solar panels, batteries and
portable 2m gain antenna installed and can be loaded into a 4 wheel drive
and set up on a mountain top. This unit only has a KISS controller.




I hope that this answers your questions.

de Ric kk5ric
6 Cedar Crest Road
HC 67 Box 157
Nogal NM 88341-9709

Do not ship anything to me without first makeing sure I will be here to
receive shipment.


Excuse the commercial, but:


Super 6.9 cents per minute telephone rates:



Many other super telephone services are linked to this page as well.

The EEPROM can be programmed in or out of the radio with the TQ-2310 suitcase
and cables

Andy

-------------
NC Certified Firefighter III / Instructor II / EMT-A
FCC Licensed Technician / Amateur Call N4ROX



Ken Whalen wrote:

From: Ken Whalen <techline@...>

Can the eeprom in the Phoenix s or sx be programmed outside of the radio?

Ken Whalen
vo1st@...

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--

Andy

-------------
NC Certified Firefighter III / Instructor II / EMT-A
FCC Licensed Technician / Amateur Call N4ROX

Can the eeprom in the Phoenix s or sx be programmed outside of the radio?

Ken Whalen
vo1st@...

Unless you count the wall mount Mastr Exec II's. Essentially the same
hardware as Desk Top but in a nice little wall mounted enclosure. Combo
number would start with a "W" as opposed to an "F".

--Dave

* REPLY SEPARATOR *

On 2/26/99, at 8:49 AM, John Lloyd wrote:

From: John Lloyd <lloyd@...>

Ray,

No, there were no stand up base stations for the exec II. Only the desk

top

models.

John Lloyd, K7JL
--------------------

Ray J. Vaughan wrote:

From: "Ray J. Vaughan" <ray@...>

At 06:29 PM 2/25/99 -0500, you wrote:

From: mch <mch@...>

Ray Vaughan wrote:

I don't think there's a 100 or 110 watt Exec II.

There is, but they use Mastr II PAs - heatsink and all...

Was there an Exec II base station? I don't mean the desktops, I have a
bunch of those. But I don't think I've ever seen a stand up base

station.

Ray, KD4BBM

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Ray,

No, there were no stand up base stations for the exec II. Only the desk top
models.

John Lloyd, K7JL
--------------------

Ray J. Vaughan wrote:

Mark,

Since you are in 2 land, I would try Amtronix. Rick Bowman has always
been fair and honest with me. Find them at:


Thanks,
David Waters, AC4JF


Mark Sihlanick wrote:

At 06:29 PM 2/25/99 -0500, you wrote:

From: mch <mch@...>

Ray Vaughan wrote:

I don't think there's a 100 or 110 watt Exec II.

There is, but they use Mastr II PAs - heatsink and all...

Was there an Exec II base station? I don't mean the desktops, I have a
bunch of those. But I don't think I've ever seen a stand up base station.



Ray, KD4BBM

Bob,

The UHF Exec II will tune to the 440- 450 ham band with no problem. Just put in the ham crystals and tune it up! The Exec II is a little different in how the modules connect together and how it is laid out. The Audio Squelch is completely different. They both work about the same. Modifications for Repeaters is
very simple and straightforward.

See the NHRC Webpage.

John Lloyd, K7JL

Utah VHF Society

------------------

bshanks@... wrote:

At 03:23 AM 2/26/99 -0000, you wrote:

From: bshanks@...

I have found several mods for GE radios to convert them to repeaters.

Most, if not all, descibe GE Mastr II. I have a GE Mastr Executive II.
What is the difference? And, it is a UHF currently at 451.575. Will it
operate within the Ham bands, or is the conversion too complex? Any help
would be appreciated.

The Mastr Exec II is a very close cousin the the Mastr II, but not exactly
the same. I actually like the Exec II a bit better, but I won't reject a
Mastr II.

Go to my conversion site:



You could say I specialize in the coversion of the Exec II desktop radios.

You'll have no trouble getting the 451 down to 440. No RF mods needed.
But you will need to do the alingnment. Not hard, but you'll need a sig
gen for the RX tuning.

Good luck with your project.


Ray, KD4BBM

I have found several mods for GE radios to convert them to repeaters. Most, if not all, descibe GE Mastr II. I have a GE Mastr Executive II. What is the difference? And, it is a UHF currently at 451.575. Will it operate within the Ham bands, or is the conversion too complex? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Bob
AB5UD

Bill Anderson WB9TEW wrote:

From: Bill Anderson WB9TEW <bill@...>

John, Please include me when you mail your notes, I am always looking for ways to
improve my repeater and you may have a new angle I may have overlooked.
Bill Anderson WB9TEW

John Lloyd wrote:

From: John Lloyd <lloyd@...>

Gary,

The Mitreks are easy to modify for repeater service. You will need to reduce the
TX Power output since the heatsink is small. You will need to make a shield over
the Channel Elements to get more Tx to Rx isolation. I will look up my notes and
send them to you later on my duplex mods to the mitrek.

John Lloyd, K7JL

Utah VHF Society
--------------------

w7ntf@... wrote:

From: w7ntf@...

Greetings,
This is Gary, W7N TF, in Spanaway, WA. I have two UHF Motorola Mitrek mobiles
that I was going to convert to repeater service before I got ahold of my GE
Mastr-II mobiles. I may still go ahead and finish the project and keep a
Mitrek for a backup repeater. Has anyone successfully converted a UHF Mitrek
mobile for repeater service? Was it difficult, and what problems did you
encounter? I bought a pair of rocks for one of my UHF repeater frequencies
and found that one of the two Mitreks fails to transmit... The other transmits
and receives ok, but still requires an alignment. I am looking for TXA, RXA,
COS, and PTT connections in order to interface with my LinkComm RLC-2A or
RLC-1 Plus controllers. I'd like to hear from you... Thanks.

73, de Gary, W7NTF

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John count me in to if you dont mind
73's
Harold
KD4JFN

w7ntf@... wrote:

From: w7ntf@...

Greetings,
This is Gary, W7N TF, in Spanaway, WA. I have two UHF Motorola Mitrek mobiles
that I was going to convert to repeater service before I got ahold of my GE
Mastr-II mobiles. I may still go ahead and finish the project and keep a
Mitrek for a backup repeater. Has anyone successfully converted a UHF Mitrek
mobile for repeater service? Was it difficult, and what problems did you
encounter? I bought a pair of rocks for one of my UHF repeater frequencies
and found that one of the two Mitreks fails to transmit... The other transmits
and receives ok, but still requires an alignment. I am looking for TXA, RXA,
COS, and PTT connections in order to interface with my LinkComm RLC-2A or
RLC-1 Plus controllers. I'd like to hear from you... Thanks.

73, de Gary, W7NTF

For those that don't know it, I have recently added a Mitrek conversion site to
the RBTIP site.

There is a conversion for a vhf and a uhf there.

Kevin