I would think, the biggest issue with digital over internet would be getting your audio delays to line up.?? Although, I could be wrong.?? If its continuous voting S/N, it will cause issues.
Someone educate me, if I am wrong.?? Every mode I have seen digital would not lend itself to S/N voting at the transmitter site. (At least not continuous).
Andy
On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 10:15 AM steven harvey < sharvey@...> wrote: I do appreciate everyone's reply on this thread.??? It gives me a lot of information to research and decide what I would like to do.??? It seems to me going digital would be the best way for the long run as the manufactures are doing more and more digital radios.?? Plus it seems logical to me that what you put down the link is not going to care if it came out of the receiver as analog or another digital mode.??
The mesh option does make me stop and think as we have a solid private mesh around here that I could use.
The Motorola option seems to be one that I could go with too.??? The Motorola Motobridge that Ranger Radio stated that has 8 voting slots is there a device that goes on the receiver site side? ? Can you give me what a good price might be for used and is this still a production item or has it been end of life from Motorola?
If Doug, KD7DK could PM me I would like to speak with you about the PSRG system and its gotcha's or how it works most of the time.
Thanks!
Steven Harvey
N8RLW
Mount Vernon, Ohio
|
Re: Multiple repeaters sharing a common power supply - pros and cons
"Put all the eggs in one basket and carefully watch the basket." If the funding is there, I'd go with option 3, and also add some alarming/remote monitoring to the generator and DC power system. Eric
WB6TIX
|
Re: Multiple repeaters sharing a common power supply - pros and cons
I would think the first step is to measure your typical power outage length.?? We have a site in Crossville, TN (very rural).?? They don't have a smart power grid, so when they have to do work, there have to kill power to that leg of the circuit.?? Consequently, we see lots of 20 minute outages (about every other week).?? The easy fix was a UPS.?? A better fix would have been an AGM battery, but we didn't want to carry 80 lbs up a 100 foot tower to the cab.??? We took the easy way out.
I know that doesn't answer your option question.?? Another thing to think about is can some of the emergency agencies pitch in to buy some batteries for you??? We have had that happen here.?? That can lessen your costs.?? We have had the DHS help.
Andy WJ9J
Our amateur radio club has three separate repeaters plus a packet node running at a single site located in the woods on a mountaintop.? The building has AC utility company power.? There is also an automatic residential backup generator supplied by a 320 gallon propane tank.? Each repeater has a separate power supply.? Two are linear and two are digital.? Two of the repeaters have 105 amp-hour AGM backup batteries and automatic battery switches (PWRgate).
The batteries were our only source of backup power before the generator was installed.? Both batteries have now reached the end of their useful lives.
It would be nice to have backup power for all four repeaters, if we can afford it.
We are considering the following options:
1. Eliminate the batteries entirely and assume that the generator will always start and have sufficient fuel.? (cost = $0)
2. Replace the two existing batteries.? (cost = $700+)
3. Reconfigure the equipment to create a single DC power system with redundant power supplies and multiple batteries and use it to power all four repeaters.? (cost = $1000+)
4. Buy a backup battery and 2 more PWRgates so that every system has its own backup battery.? (cost = $1700+)
I recently spoke with someone who said that a local commercial tower site has a single power system for all of its repeaters. (i.e. option #3 above)
We are depending on our repeaters for emergency communications, so it seems to me that option #4 would provide the greatest degree of reliability.? If one repeater malfunctions and draws a lot of power, the other repeaters aren't affected because they have their own, separate batteries.? But since funding is limited, I could also make a case for "pooling" those batteries so the total energy in the bank can go to where it is needed.
Here's my question:? How do other people handle this?? Is option #4 overkill?? Is option #3 the most common approach?
Thanks.
Bob Snyder KC3KVS
|
Re: Two UHF repeaters sharing the same antenna.
You will spend much more for a combiner system to do what you want than replacing the bad antenna. It can be done but not cheaply.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Nov 16, 2022, at 10:39, DCFluX <dcflux@...> wrote:
? If you have enough filtering and the frequencies are spaced far enough apart you should be able to.
But also take in to account the center frequency and bandwidth of the antenna to be shared, it might not have good VSWR at the other frequencies.
You may want to do an intermod/mixing products study to make sure the two transmitters when mixed do not create products that land on the receive frequencies. One example is if the two transmitters are spaced 5 MHz apart, they will create interference on the receivers when both transmit at the same time.
It is also a common practice for sites with multiple repeaters to have a shared transmit antenna with combiners and a common receive antenna with bandpass filter, preamp and splitters.?
If you are looking for a temporary solution you may be better off just putting the one repeater on a mag mount or something to get you by until proper repairs are made.
can I put two UHF repeaters on the same antenna by putting some filtering in between them one is in business band and the other one is amateur radio band. Just reaching out there in a group has anybody ever done this before I've got one antenna that is damaged it appears to have water in it and the SWR is high. thanks. KF4RGR? ? ? ?Keith Ford
|
Re: Multiple repeaters sharing a common power supply - pros and cons
The most important item is never assume the generator will always start.? The second thing is between the commercial power fail and generator start you will be without power even if just a few seconds.?
So, a battery of some sort will be needed to at least hold you over between power fail and Gen start.?
The next question is what is the usual time frame from commercial power fail and return? If it¡¯s usually hours/days and the generator fails will you have enough backup power??
I know I didn¡¯t answer your real question, but if you plan for the worst and hope for the best you should be ok.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Nov 16, 2022, at 09:49, rsnyder@... wrote:
?Our amateur radio club has three separate repeaters plus a packet node running at a single site located in the woods on a mountaintop.? The building has AC utility company power.? There is also an automatic residential backup generator supplied by a 320 gallon propane tank.? Each repeater has a separate power supply.? Two are linear and two are digital.? Two of the repeaters have 105 amp-hour AGM backup batteries and automatic battery switches (PWRgate).
The batteries were our only source of backup power before the generator was installed.? Both batteries have now reached the end of their useful lives.
It would be nice to have backup power for all four repeaters, if we can afford it.
We are considering the following options:
1. Eliminate the batteries entirely and assume that the generator will always start and have sufficient fuel.? (cost = $0)
2. Replace the two existing batteries.? (cost = $700+)
3. Reconfigure the equipment to create a single DC power system with redundant power supplies and multiple batteries and use it to power all four repeaters.? (cost = $1000+)
4. Buy a backup battery and 2 more PWRgates so that every system has its own backup battery.? (cost = $1700+)
I recently spoke with someone who said that a local commercial tower site has a single power system for all of its repeaters. (i.e. option #3 above)
We are depending on our repeaters for emergency communications, so it seems to me that option #4 would provide the greatest degree of reliability.? If one repeater malfunctions and draws a lot of power, the other repeaters aren't affected because they have their own, separate batteries.? But since funding is limited, I could also make a case for "pooling" those batteries so the total energy in the bank can go to where it is needed.
Here's my question:? How do other people handle this?? Is option #4 overkill?? Is option #3 the most common approach?
Thanks.
Bob Snyder KC3KVS
|
Re: Two UHF repeaters sharing the same antenna.
If you have enough filtering and the frequencies are spaced far enough apart you should be able to.
But also take in to account the center frequency and bandwidth of the antenna to be shared, it might not have good VSWR at the other frequencies.
You may want to do an intermod/mixing products study to make sure the two transmitters when mixed do not create products that land on the receive frequencies. One example is if the two transmitters are spaced 5 MHz apart, they will create interference on the receivers when both transmit at the same time.
It is also a common practice for sites with multiple repeaters to have a shared transmit antenna with combiners and a common receive antenna with bandpass filter, preamp and splitters.?
If you are looking for a temporary solution you may be better off just putting the one repeater on a mag mount or something to get you by until proper repairs are made.
can I put two UHF repeaters on the same antenna by putting some filtering in between them one is in business band and the other one is amateur radio band. Just reaching out there in a group has anybody ever done this before I've got one antenna that is damaged it appears to have water in it and the SWR is high. thanks. KF4RGR? ? ? ?Keith Ford
|
I do appreciate everyone's reply on this thread.??? It gives me a lot of information to research and decide what I would like to do.??? It seems to me going digital would be the best way for the long run as the manufactures are doing more and more digital radios.?? Plus it seems logical to me that what you put down the link is not going to care if it came out of the receiver as analog or another digital mode.??
The mesh option does make me stop and think as we have a solid private mesh around here that I could use.
The Motorola option seems to be one that I could go with too.??? The Motorola Motobridge that Ranger Radio stated that has 8 voting slots is there a device that goes on the receiver site side? ? Can you give me what a good price might be for used and is this still a production item or has it been end of life from Motorola?
If Doug, KD7DK could PM me I would like to speak with you about the PSRG system and its gotcha's or how it works most of the time.
Thanks!
Steven Harvey
N8RLW
Mount Vernon, Ohio
|
Two UHF repeaters sharing the same antenna.
can I put two UHF repeaters on the same antenna by putting some filtering in between them one is in business band and the other one is amateur radio band. Just reaching out there in a group has anybody ever done this before I've got one antenna that is damaged it appears to have water in it and the SWR is high. thanks. KF4RGR? ? ? ?Keith Ford
|
Multiple repeaters sharing a common power supply - pros and cons
Our amateur radio club has three separate repeaters plus a packet node running at a single site located in the woods on a mountaintop.? The building has AC utility company power.? There is also an automatic residential backup generator supplied by a 320 gallon propane tank.? Each repeater has a separate power supply.? Two are linear and two are digital.? Two of the repeaters have 105 amp-hour AGM backup batteries and automatic battery switches (PWRgate).
The batteries were our only source of backup power before the generator was installed.? Both batteries have now reached the end of their useful lives.
It would be nice to have backup power for all four repeaters, if we can afford it.
We are considering the following options:
1. Eliminate the batteries entirely and assume that the generator will always start and have sufficient fuel.? (cost = $0)
2. Replace the two existing batteries.? (cost = $700+)
3. Reconfigure the equipment to create a single DC power system with redundant power supplies and multiple batteries and use it to power all four repeaters.? (cost = $1000+)
4. Buy a backup battery and 2 more PWRgates so that every system has its own backup battery.? (cost = $1700+)
I recently spoke with someone who said that a local commercial tower site has a single power system for all of its repeaters. (i.e. option #3 above)
We are depending on our repeaters for emergency communications, so it seems to me that option #4 would provide the greatest degree of reliability.? If one repeater malfunctions and draws a lot of power, the other repeaters aren't affected because they have their own, separate batteries.? But since funding is limited, I could also make a case for "pooling" those batteries so the total energy in the bank can go to where it is needed.
Here's my question:? How do other people handle this?? Is option #4 overkill?? Is option #3 the most common approach?
Thanks.
Bob Snyder KC3KVS
|
Again, the GE voter does not need voter tone. It will do E&M keying standard. No mods needed.
There are cards out there, likely from some trunked systems, that use voter tone to set level, rather than having a pot on the front. I have some of those, but for normal ham use, they're a pain.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 11/15/2022 5:33 PM, Karl Shoemaker wrote: Steven, I designed and built a TDV but it does not sample S/N, just a cheap way to go. Details on the web site.
In my job the Motorola or GE one works nicely however, needs a status tone.? But I am researching ways to get around this.
LDG Electroncs made one but now is no longer. It does not need status tone. I have two. They are nice however, has an issue with unsquelched audio.
I have a write-up on the web site. They are for sale.
Doug hall was a great voter, but it's also no longer. I does not need a status tone.
Raytheon makes a very nice one and does not need a status tone. It works well even for a flat repeater.
Only downside is it's expensive to maintain; the factory wants $600 just to take a look at it.? New they go for over $5,000.
If you have deep pockets (like government agencies do) that's the one to get.
Status tone for the Motorola is used for two things, reference S/N and signaling (indication of carrier activity). I can't say if GE is the same.
I assuming you are asking for an analog system??? I don't know any for the digital stuff other than what Doug said, above.
If you do get used gear keep in mind you will need to support it. That means understanding how it works and hopefully find replacement parts, especially the ICs.
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at <>
for the current email address.
|
If you want to vote Motorola Motrbo DMR they have a good system that uses? SLR repeaters as the remote receivers Just need a dedicated digital link between sites, better than using the internet unless you have a robust data network.
Only require V.24 for mixed mode or P25 only.
They are standard 2175 status tone for analog.? Them and the
Digi-TAC (analog only, but supported 12Kb DES and DVP) should be
plentiful after all the switching to full P25 all over the US.
Jim W7RY
On 11/15/2022 10:22 PM, Stephen K3SEM
via wrote:
Speaking of voters, does anyone have experience with Astro tac
3000s? I know they all require V.24 via the Cisco routers and the
whole shabang, and the wire line cards in the quantar stations,
but do they work well? Not too much documentation out there about
using them in amateur applications.
73¡¯²õ,
Stephen
K3SEM
-.. . / -.- ¡-- ¡ . --
?
Steven, I have a Doug Hall that I no longer need and will be
putting it up for sale. It¡¯s a 4 channel version.?
tnx
Mike / K5JR?
Alpharetta GA
?
[Edited Message Follows]
Hello Everyone,
This question is a general question and a one for me to
figure out what is out on the market today for voters.????
- With Doug Hall out of the market who is left for
voters still being made new or ones that you can still
get parts for is the first question.???
- Second, if you had to purchase a voter system for your
VHF or UHF system who would it be?
- Last but not least,? I have I have seen on the market
JPS makes a voter system and it seems to use a private
network such as microwave from site to the main site.??
Are there ones that can use the public internet?
Thanks!
Steven Harvey
N8RLW
Mount Vernon, Ohio
--
Thanks and 73, Jim W7RY
|
Only require V.24 for mixed mode or P25 only.
They are standard 2175 status tone for analog.? Them and the
Digi-TAC (analog only, but supported 12Kb DES and DVP) should be
plentiful after all the switching to full P25 all over the US.
Jim W7RY
On 11/15/2022 10:22 PM, Stephen K3SEM
via groups.io wrote:
Speaking of voters, does anyone have experience with Astro tac
3000s? I know they all require V.24 via the Cisco routers and the
whole shabang, and the wire line cards in the quantar stations,
but do they work well? Not too much documentation out there about
using them in amateur applications.
73¡¯²õ,
Stephen
K3SEM
-.. . / -.- ¡-- ¡ . --
?
Steven, I have a Doug Hall that I no longer need and will be
putting it up for sale. It¡¯s a 4 channel version.?
tnx
Mike / K5JR?
Alpharetta GA
?
[Edited Message Follows]
Hello Everyone,
This question is a general question and a one for me to
figure out what is out on the market today for voters.????
- With Doug Hall out of the market who is left for
voters still being made new or ones that you can still
get parts for is the first question.???
- Second, if you had to purchase a voter system for your
VHF or UHF system who would it be?
- Last but not least,? I have I have seen on the market
JPS makes a voter system and it seems to use a private
network such as microwave from site to the main site.??
Are there ones that can use the public internet?
Thanks!
Steven Harvey
N8RLW
Mount Vernon, Ohio
--
Thanks and 73, Jim W7RY
|
Speaking of voters, does anyone have experience with Astro tac 3000s? I know they all require V.24 via the Cisco routers and the whole shabang, and the wire line cards in the quantar stations, but do they work well? Not too much documentation out there about using them in amateur applications. 73¡¯²õ, Stephen K3SEM -.. . / -.- ¡-- ¡ . --
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Nov 15, 2022, at 22:37, Mike / K5JR <k5jr.lists@...> wrote:
? Steven, I have a Doug Hall that I no longer need and will be putting it up for sale. It¡¯s a 4 channel version.? tnx Mike / K5JR? Alpharetta GA
On Nov 15, 2022, at 4:43 PM, steven harvey <sharvey@...> wrote:
? [Edited Message Follows]
Hello Everyone, This question is a general question and a one for me to figure out what is out on the market today for voters.????
- With Doug Hall out of the market who is left for voters still being made new or ones that you can still get parts for is the first question.???
- Second, if you had to purchase a voter system for your VHF or UHF system who would it be?
- Last but not least,? I have I have seen on the market JPS makes a voter system and it seems to use a private network such as microwave from site to the main site.?? Are there ones that can use the public internet?
Thanks! Steven Harvey N8RLW Mount Vernon, Ohio
|
Steven, I have a Doug Hall that I no longer need and will be putting it up for sale. It¡¯s a 4 channel version.? tnx Mike / K5JR? Alpharetta GA
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Nov 15, 2022, at 4:43 PM, steven harvey <sharvey@...> wrote: ? [Edited Message Follows]
Hello Everyone, This question is a general question and a one for me to figure out what is out on the market today for voters.????
- With Doug Hall out of the market who is left for voters still being made new or ones that you can still get parts for is the first question.???
- Second, if you had to purchase a voter system for your VHF or UHF system who would it be?
- Last but not least,? I have I have seen on the market JPS makes a voter system and it seems to use a private network such as microwave from site to the main site.?? Are there ones that can use the public internet?
Thanks! Steven Harvey N8RLW Mount Vernon, Ohio
|
Our group bought a repeater amp few months ago from Henry.
I realize a lot can happen in a few months.
When I called Henry with questions, Ted was the one that answered the phone.
Same when I called Arcom to look into the RC210, Ken answered the phone.
It don't get any better when the owner picks up the phone......
Hopefully both will be around for awhile..
Great products and made in America.
To bad most of the IC's are not, we need to fix that.
Its effecting just about every industry having to rely on parts from over the pond.
Greg
|
Raven Communications has a voter that's compact and does ok allegedly?
On the used market look for a Motorola Motobridge - these vote up to 8 sites and will work tone or COR on the same shelf
There is always the JPS SNV-12 and these show from time to time
Hardcore is still Motorola Digitac but these should be kept tone only?
On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 17:33 Karl Shoemaker < srg734@...> wrote: Steven, I designed and built a TDV but it does not sample S/N, just a cheap way to go. Details on the web site.
In my job the Motorola or GE one works nicely however, needs a status tone.? But I am researching ways to get around this.
LDG Electroncs made one but now is no longer. It does not need status tone. I have two. They are nice however, has an issue with unsquelched audio.
I have a write-up on the web site. They are for sale.
Doug hall was a great voter, but it's also no longer. I does not need a status tone.
Raytheon makes a very nice one and does not need a status tone. It works well even for a flat repeater.
Only downside is it's expensive to maintain; the factory wants $600 just to take a look at it.? New they go for over $5,000.?
If you have deep pockets (like government agencies do) that's the one to get.
Status tone for the Motorola is used for two things, reference S/N and signaling (indication of carrier activity). I can't say if GE is the same.
I assuming you are asking for an analog system??? I don't know any for the digital stuff other than what Doug said, above.
If you do get used gear keep in mind you will need to support it. That means understanding how it works and hopefully find replacement parts, especially the ICs.
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
GE MSTR 2 special (Factory Repeater?) FREE
Karl Shoemaker does GE stuff according to what I see on this forum. I was given a UHF GE MSTRii mobile which appears to be a factory special repeater. It is very clean, but I don't have a GE key to take a peek inside. It has a BNC connector on the front panel (receiver input?) which is a factory production item. Karl, I don't have a use for it. It's yours if you want it. I'm just trying to keep it out of the landfill. I play with old Motorola stuff. I live on the North side of Seattle in Mountlake Terrace. Maybe you know someone who can bring it to you. Thanks, Frank N6CES
|
Re: GE MII voter complete
Yes, RF downlinks as I don't want to depend on the internet when the brown stuff hits the fan.
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
Steven, I designed and built a TDV but it does not sample S/N, just a cheap way to go. Details on the web site.
In my job the Motorola or GE one works nicely however, needs a status tone.? But I am researching ways to get around this.
LDG Electroncs made one but now is no longer. It does not need status tone. I have two. They are nice however, has an issue with unsquelched audio.
I have a write-up on the web site. They are for sale.
Doug hall was a great voter, but it's also no longer. I does not need a status tone.
Raytheon makes a very nice one and does not need a status tone. It works well even for a flat repeater.
Only downside is it's expensive to maintain; the factory wants $600 just to take a look at it.? New they go for over $5,000.?
If you have deep pockets (like government agencies do) that's the one to get.
Status tone for the Motorola is used for two things, reference S/N and signaling (indication of carrier activity). I can't say if GE is the same.
I assuming you are asking for an analog system??? I don't know any for the digital stuff other than what Doug said, above.
If you do get used gear keep in mind you will need to support it. That means understanding how it works and hopefully find replacement parts, especially the ICs.
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
Puget Sound Repeater Group () has built two different voted systems using Allstar and RTCMs.? This IP based technology has been working brilliantly here in Seattle.? Our 2m repeater system has 6 active receivers.? The 6m system has 2, and each can trivially grow as needed. -Doug- KD7DK, PSRG President and Tech Lead
On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 1:47 PM Jim Barbour < wd8chl@...> wrote: Well, for your first question, many of the newer repeater systems have
internal voting now. Kenwood can do it, but it's a add-on option.
Simoco has it, but we've put in two systems now, and I am not impressed.
Seems like a lot of misvoting, plus they have squelch issues.
For myself, I'll stick with a GE voter. Lots of them out there. The
black ones are better.
New? Idk. It'd have to be Kenwood I guess...works well, but more than I
would spend on my own stuff...unless I won the lottery or something...lol.
On 11/15/2022 4:40 PM, steven harvey wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
>
> This question is a general question and a one for me to figure out what
> is out on the market today for voters.
>
>? 1. With Doug Hall out of the market who is left for voters still being
>? ? ?made new or ones that you can still get parts for is the first
>? ? ?question.
>? 2. Second, if you had to purchase a voter system for your VHF or UHF
>? ? ?system who would it be?
>? 3. Last but not least,? I have seen system that JPS makes and it seems
>? ? ?to use a private network such as microwave from site to the main
>? ? ?site.?? Are there ones that can use the public internet?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Steven Harvey
> N8RLW
> Mount Vernon, Ohio
> _._,_._,_
|
Tezza
Karl Shoemaker
Doug Kingston, KD7DK