Re: VHF MTR2000 Poor Receive Performance
Are you using any elbows in your system?
I am not, no adapters anywhere, I¡¯m using 4 foot RG-400 N Male/N Male cables. I¡¯ve tested them both for shorts/miswires and also ran them across a spectrum analyzer and both have about 0.16db of loss at my frequencies.
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Re: VHF MTR2000 Poor Receive Performance
Are you using any elbows in your system?
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----- Original Message ----- From: Jared Smudde <computerwhiz02@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Fri, 28 Oct 2022 19:45:46 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: [repeater-builder] VHF MTR2000 Poor Receive Performance It would appear that I have 2 issues resulting in the over 3 db down which probably explains my issue. So I guess that¡¯s what I mean when it¡¯s ¡°deaf¡±. I must be horribly messing up my MTR alignment or it has a hardware issue. I¡¯ll send it to my dealer that¡¯s aligned my other 5 MTRs without issue and let them look at it. As for the duplexer, I don¡¯t know where the extra loss is. I have the low pass side terminated into a dummy load and a normalized spectrum analyzer and cables on the high pass only shows 1.3db of loss. I don¡¯t know where the rest is coming from or how to find it. Any ideas?
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Re: VHF MTR2000 Poor Receive Performance
It would appear that I have 2 issues resulting in the over 3 db down which probably explains my issue. So I guess that¡¯s what I mean when it¡¯s ¡°deaf¡±.?
I must be horribly messing up my MTR alignment or it has a hardware issue. I¡¯ll send it to my dealer that¡¯s aligned my other 5 MTRs without issue and let them look at it.
As for the duplexer, I don¡¯t know where the extra loss is. I have the low pass side terminated into a dummy load and a normalized spectrum analyzer and cables on the high pass only shows 1.3db of loss. I don¡¯t know where the rest is coming from or how to find it. Any ideas?
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Re: QUANTAR VHF Audio Interface...
As an AM station owner and engineer, all my AMs have been out to 10 kilohertz. The stations that have reduced to 5 are those that are running IBOC or HD which is required to prevent interference to the digital signal. When I was chief engineer of iHeartMedia in New Orleans, I converted WYLD AM 940 to AM stereo thanks to the new Nautel NX10 in late April 2020. Any AM running five kilohertz b/w is stupid in my professional and personal p opinion. a lot of operators on AM don't care about their signal. The problem is the receivers not the transmitters.
Now back to our abnormal amateur abuse lol
Chris WB5ITT?
On Fri, Oct 28, 2022, 1:32 PM Burt K6OQK < biwa@...> wrote: [Edited Message Follows]
This is way the heck off topic, but since you bring it up here with great authority... Just for the record,? AM radio has only recently gone (down) to 6 kHz, and in some cases 5 kHz, but not all stations, as 6 kHz is not a requirement.? It was a recommended reduction in bandwidth by some corporate bandwagon chiefs to "be good neighbors," which is a bunch of bat-hockey because those same chiefs immediately proceeded to insist that all their stations implement IBOC.?
AM radio used to go out to 10 or 15 kHz, although only 7.5 kHz was required under the FCC rules.? When I was C.E. at KFAC in Los Angeles we used to proof KFAC-AM out to 10+ KC (kHz).? Back in those days AM receivers could pass that.? In fact AM sounded almost as good as FM.? You say that can't be!!!? Consider the L-R channel in FM stereo; DSBSC - same as good old AM.? We have shot ourselves in the foot by de-grading AM to the point it's now at by over-crowding and narrowing the OBW to allow more stations in the band.? It's not the physics of AM to sound this bad.
In about 1994 the NRSC (National Radio Standards Committee) recommended the reduction in occupied bandwidth to 10 kHz, which then became a rule.? For AM stations a yearly occupied bandwidth proof is now required, and known as the "NRSC Proof" where you need to demonstrate that your modulation mask does not exceed 10 kHz, as well as other out of channel signals.?
See; .? I do about 70 of these proofs each year.
Now, please, back to our regularly scheduled topic of, How do I feed the wide band input to my QUANTAR R2 VHF transmitter?
Burt, K6OQK
On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 02:42 PM, jb wrote:
The idea of getting AM broadcast to 6kc was to help music reproduction.
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Re: VHF MTR2000 Poor Receive Performance
FWIW, it¡¯s probably easier if you state your measurements in dB instead of uV. ? 0.53 uV = -112.5 dBm 0.40 uV = -114.9 dBm ? So, you¡¯re losing 2.4 dB in your duplexer, not the 1.3 dB you stated before.? ?? ? And 0.40 uV for 12 dB SINAD is about 1.6 dB off the 0.35 uV spec. ? Given the difference between 2.4 dB and 1.3 dB (1.1 dB) and the 1.6 dB difference from the .35 uV spec, you¡¯re down nearly 3 dB from where you should be.? Is that what you mean by ¡®deaf¡¯? ? Mike WM4B ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Jared Smudde Sent: Friday, October 28, 2022 8:06 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [repeater-builder] VHF MTR2000 Poor Receive Performance ? So I injected signal into the antenna port of the duplexer and hooked the receiver to the duplexer without the TX hooked up. It took 0.53 microvolts to maintain 12DB SINAD. But the thing is, when I hooked the signal generator directly to the repeater, it took 0.4 microvolts today so I¡¯m a little confused.
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Re: VHF MTR2000 Poor Receive Performance
So I injected signal into the antenna port of the duplexer and hooked the receiver to the duplexer without the TX hooked up. It took 0.53 microvolts to maintain 12DB SINAD. But the thing is, when I hooked the signal generator directly to the repeater, it took 0.4 microvolts today so I¡¯m a little confused.
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Re: QUANTAR VHF Audio Interface...
Since my post is not included, I have no idea what your talking
about Burt.
But glad to help with whatever it was.
73, Jim W7RY
On 10/28/2022 2:32 PM, Burt K6OQK
wrote:
Jim,
I just saw this.? Don't know how or why I missed it when you sent
it.? I'll look into trying this.
Thanks,
Burt, K6OQK
--
Thanks and 73, Jim W7RY
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Re: Harris portable radio batteries
Our city went with the Honeywell lithium ion batteries and kept the same chargers for the jacquar radios. Eventually, we've switched over now to motorola, but the NiMH batteries were aweful for the LPE and jacquar radios
Millin
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----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Magloughlin <krmjqo@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Fri, 28 Oct 2022 12:34:11 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: [repeater-builder] Harris portable radio batteries I understand the issues surrounding the nmh vs li-ion charging schemes. Thank you both for your input. I was hoping for a response from someone with up to date knowledge of the Harris product line and could say something like ¡°Yeah you need one of these and here is a PN and a picture so you know what it looks like.¡± If there are any Harris guys out there, I am still looking for someone who knows something about jaguar chargers. ?Anyone? ?Buhler?
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Re: QUANTAR VHF Audio Interface...
Jim,
I just saw this.? Don't know how or why I missed it when you sent it.? I'll look into trying this.
Thanks,
Burt, K6OQK
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Re: QUANTAR VHF Audio Interface...
OK, I stand by my statements and their relevance.? If you want to make it an argument about something else, That's you.?
My main point was bandwidth of the RF signal, which directly relates to the maximum frequency of modulation and the
deviation.? If you don't think the bandwidth of the emitted RF signal on 2m matters? OK.? If you think it doesn't matter on
440 either?? OK.? If you think operations other than what you are interested in don't matter? OK, that's on you.?
It would seem that K6OQK (OP) understood me and seems to care enough to address the issue as much as possible with
proper and careful audio processing.? The key to audio quality is to avoid distortion in the RX and audio chain and espescially
avoid clipping in the deviation limitter which will produce harmonics and distortion that add nothing to fidelity, and need to be
filtered out to prevent an overly broad occupied bandwidth.?
Unless there are new TASMA technical specifications, they are published here:?
The 15Khz channel spacing on 2m (not 440) already forces a redux of the Dev to 4.2Khz with a max 3Khz modulating frequency.
I do notice that there are pairs in 144.5-145,5Mhz that are 20Khz channel spacing but the "repeater under discussion...
147.240 (+)..." isn't there either.? The thing about "gentleman's agreements", is that just about anyone can claim exemption
and screw over everybody else.? This often gives FCC an excuse to make more rules.?
Nothing I said was untrue.? You may not understand or are offended with me or just want to jam me out.?
Maybe start another thread?
On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 02:42 PM, Bob Dengler wrote:
At 10/26/2022 04:17 PM, you wrote:
On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 09:51 PM, Bob Dengler wrote:
At 10/25/2022 01:32 PM, you wrote:
My point is, where is the energy above 3Khz comming from? Unless it is background music or road noise. The audio
spectrum from the human voice isn't there.
You must not have a tongue or teeth; my sympathies.
No - Really. There is little "need" of energy above 3khz for male voice inteligibility. It goes a little higher to 4k for women.
If you want singing or screaming of little children, you might want to go higher.
Not talking about intelligibility, but rather faithful reproduction of human speech.
The idea of getting AM broadcast to 6kc was to help music reproduction.
Yeah I remember listening to music in the 70s on cheap AM pocket radios with no high end response. For the longest time I thought Foreigner's big hit was "You're as cold as I" :)
"Bass boosting"? No one has mentioned that; what does that have to do with this discussion?
A lot of people are doing wierd things like base boosting in order to get that "Barry White" DJ sound.
Not on any repeaters around here. The XPRs I set up here probably come closest, but they are actually flat down to 35 Hz.
And there is no reason to pass the PL either.
Why not?
Added distortion of the PL tone originating at the mobile to be passed on to the transmitter?
If the user's PL distorts, a notch or 300 Hz HPF will do little to help because the harmonics will likely go up above that. At least that's what happens when I try to use my beat-up VX-7 on the repeater.
If someone really WANTS 6kc audio, it will have to be addressed throughout the chain, and keep an eye on the spectrum
analyzer.
Why? I'm sorry but this is borderline nonsense. Just what is to be "addressed throughout the chain"?
I was referring to the whole repeater chain as a system, including the user's transmitted signal to the repeater received signal and whatever processing to the
controller and whatever processing to the transmitter and whatever processing to the recovered audio at the user end. Because if you increase the modulating
frequency without either reducing the Dev or rolling off the modulating frequency, the occupied bandwidth will increase. So you will need to do whatever
adjustments "throughout the chain" to insure you don't exceed the bandwidth limited by the coordinating body by looking at a narrow enough spectrum analyzer
On 440 we don't care much about that because we have 20 kHz channel spacing, & in most cases the adjacents are either relatively unused, far away or are actually another repeater belonging to the same system.
Then I looked up K6OQK and saw 147.435 in Los Angeles. I think that one is world famous for sending the FCC packing,
and pushing the envelope well past the 7 dirty words. Maybe when Burt was involved it wasn't that way, but it became the
attractive nuisance of the amateur community.
...and what the hell does that have to do with the subject?
Southern California has a coordinating body that limits the bandwidth of 2 meter repeaters, because of a 15khz channel spacing.
Burt mentions his involvement with the 147.435 repeater that does not follow the coordinating body's bandplan recomendation for
everyone else and uses a simplex frequency in it's pair so that people who jam with high power are still able to duplex.
Not true: the 146.400/147.435 pair has always been a recognized coordinated repeater pair in SoCal for as long as I've been around anyway. There are a few others here, like 147.405/144.950 & 146.490/147.495. Basically the local community decided some 20+ years ago that the ratio of repeater pairs to simplex was a bit lower than it should be, & redefined a few pairs of former simplex channels as repeater pairs. Still plenty of simplex to go around, particularly 144.3-144.5 & 145.5-145.7. I regularly look at the VHF/UHF amateur spectrum from elevated locations in LA & rarely see more than 2 or 3 2 meter simplex frequencies in use at any one time.
Having said all that, the repeater under discussion is on 147.240 (+) the W6MEP repeater which has nothing to do with 147.435.
Bob NO6B
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Re: Harris portable radio batteries
I understand the issues surrounding the nmh vs li-ion charging schemes. Thank you both for your input.?
I was hoping for a response from someone with up to date knowledge of the Harris product line and could say something like ¡°Yeah you need one of these and here is a PN and a picture so you know what it looks like.¡±
If there are any Harris guys out there, I am still looking for someone who knows something about jaguar chargers. ?Anyone? ?Buhler? ?
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Hello Steve,
I would be interested in the controller.
73, Joe, K1ike
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On 10/28/2022 11:26 AM, sflory@... wrote:
does any one need a free controller not working for parts i have no idea whats wrong with it contact me off list
Steve Flory W9KOP
sflory@...
"I like climbing towers because people look up to me"
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The controller has been spoken for Thanks
Steve Flory W9KOP
sflory@...
"I like climbing towers because people look up to me"
-----Original Message----- From: < [email protected]> Sent: Oct 28, 2022 10:26 AM To: < [email protected]> Subject: [repeater-builder] RLC-2A
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does any one need a free controller not working for parts i have no idea whats wrong with it contact me off list
Steve Flory W9KOP
sflory@...
"I like climbing towers because people look up to me"
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Re: QUANTAR VHF Audio Interface...
This is way the heck off topic, but since you bring it up here with great authority... Just for the record,? AM radio has only recently gone (down) to 6 kHz, and in some cases 5 kHz, but not all stations, as 6 kHz is not a requirement.? It was a recommended reduction in bandwidth by some corporate bandwagon chiefs to "be good neighbors," which is a bunch of bat-hockey because those same chiefs immediately proceeded to insist that all their stations implement IBOC.?
AM radio used to go out to 10 or 15 kHz, although only 7.5 kHz was required under the FCC rules.? When I was C.E. at KFAC in Los Angeles we used to proof KFAC-AM out to 10+ KC (kHz).? Back in those days AM receivers could pass that.? In fact AM sounded almost as good as FM.? You say that can't be!!!? Consider the L-R channel in FM stereo; DSBSC - same as good old AM.? We have shot ourselves in the foot by de-grading AM to the point it's now at by over-crowding and narrowing the OBW to allow more stations in the band.? It's not the physics of AM to sound this bad.
In about 1994 the NRSC (National Radio Standards Committee) recommended the reduction in occupied bandwidth to 10 kHz, which then became a rule.? For AM stations a yearly occupied bandwidth proof is now required, and known as the "NRSC Proof" where you need to demonstrate that your modulation mask does not exceed 10 kHz, as well as other out of channel signals.?
See; .? I do about 70 of these proofs each year.
Now, please, back to our regularly scheduled topic of, How do I feed the wide band input to my QUANTAR R2 VHF transmitter?
Burt, K6OQK
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On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 02:42 PM, jb wrote:
The idea of getting AM broadcast to 6kc was to help music reproduction.
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Re: QUANTAR VHF Audio Interface...
Jim,
Thank you for that link.? I downloaded and did a search for "Simulcast."? It came back with a ton of instances of "simulcast" stuffs.? I read through the simulcast set up proceedure, but to be honest, I don't know what the heck I'm looking at or for.? All (I think) I want to do is open the path in the radio to allow the wideband audio to pass thru to the transmitter modulator.? Do I need to go through all of the stuffs the manual is telling me to do, such as calibrating the system?? If you know a way to do that maybe we should talk on the phone.
In appreciation,
Burt, K6OQK
biwa -@ att dot net
Good on
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Re: Got a trimble thunderbolt E need more info.
I would also recommend getting one of .? Also comes in kit form for a bit less.?
Gives you four filtered and amplified outputs.? I use all four - two for my NXDN repeaters and two for the service monitors.
73 Cliff, k1iff
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Re: so whats everyone using for repeater controllers now?
We're assuming he has a clear path; not like dealing with the mountains in my area.
--
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Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
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does any one need a free controller not working for parts i have no idea whats wrong with it contact me off list
Steve Flory W9KOP
sflory@...
"I like climbing towers because people look up to me"
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I included a link to do updates to the DR-1x
On 10/27/2022 5:00 PM, Gervais Fillion
wrote:
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Brad
is it complicated to update an DR1X repeater?
is there a note somewhere that explain how to do it ourself at
home via the internet i supposed?
thanks for the help
73
mine is running great ,i will check my version !
gervais ve2ckn
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Firmware needed for Zetron PageCenter (peoplefinder II)
I was able to find another zetron pagecenter, however it seems the firmware has been deleted somehow. I can¡¯t seem to find much online about the unit, so finding the firmware is going to be impossible. I figured I would ask in here if anyone may have used this device before and may have an old computer laying around with it in it.
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Jared Smudde
Chris Boone WB5ITT
Mike Besemer - WM4B
Burt K6OQK
Karl Shoemaker