Re: ID intervals (was: [repeater-builder] RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit)
The FCC has said no several times to that but I guess he's not listening
At 5/23/2025 01:48 PM, you wrote:
That was my point. It is not
prohibited, so therefore is allowed. In fact, one could ID every 5
minutes and be legal.
Really?? OK then, how about every 3 minutes?? 2 minutes??
1 minute?? 10 seconds?? Or is it legal to just continuously
transmit nothing but your callsign?
Bob NO6B
|
ID intervals (was: [repeater-builder] RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit)
At 5/23/2025 01:48 PM, you wrote:
That was my point. It is not
prohibited, so therefore is allowed. In fact, one could ID every 5
minutes and be legal.
Really?? OK then, how about every 3 minutes?? 2 minutes??
1 minute?? 10 seconds?? Or is it legal to just continuously
transmit nothing but your callsign?
Bob NO6B
|
M1225LS Radio Password Bypass
I have 2 UJF M1225 LS radios that have passwords that previous owners don't have available. I once heard there was a bypass password for these radios. Is that true?
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
At 5/23/2025 07:11 AM, you wrote:
> Rephrasing: "I don't
like you pointing out the errors of my ways so I'll ignore
you".? Nice attitude, especially in amateur radio where we are
supposed to be self-policing.? Clearly you can't even police
yourself.?
I was quite clear. YOUR INTERPRETATION of the rules are irrelevant.
We?€?ve been running our repeaters for well over 40 years this way. If it
were illegal, we would have gotten a notice in that time. Smarter people
than you set our systems up initially.
OMG talk about putting foot in mouth.
Kimi wa jitsu ni baka da na!
Bob NO6B
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
At 5/22/2025 07:55 PM, you wrote:
On Thu, May 22, 2025 at 10:47
PM, Chris Boone WB5ITT wrote:
- Uhhh beacon IDing, etc is illegal under part97..several repeaters
have gotten emails from Riley about it.
- ?
- ?
Illegal? First I've heard that one.. we have done it for several
years and never had an issue.
Doesn't make it legal.
?Not to
mention every repeater around us voice ID's every 10 minutes as well, and
the FCC requires ID when in use, so why not just have it ID anyways?
Because it's illegal.? I once received a notice from the local FCC
office directing me to cease "beacon IDing" my repeater.?
Doesn't get any plainer than that.
Bob NO6B
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
I like em round myself On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 6:58?PM Teton Amateur Radio Repeater Association (TARRA) via <tarra= [email protected]> wrote:
What about a Pi? Which is better, the 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5?
Mick - W7CAT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Arck AH6LE via "
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2025 03:28:23 PM
Subject: Re: [repeater-builder] RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
?> Can we discuss PC vs MAC next?
?>
?>
?>
?> At 02:04 PM 5/23/2025, Chris Boone WB5ITT via wrote:
?> >No it's not allowed....ask Riley or Laura Smith..
?> >
?> >When a station is not repeating another station,
?> >it falls under other rules. This is the same
?> >thing as when it's in Auto patch mode, it's no
?> >longer a repeater, it's a station carrying
?> >third-party traffic and must follow third-party
?> >traffic rules. If it is beaconing it falls under
?> >the beacon rules! Automatic beaconing on two
?> >meters is restricted to 144.275 to 144.3. If you
?> >are automatically beaconing outside of that sub
?> >band, the rules require a control operator
?> >monitor the transmitter during its operation.
?> >Those are the rules! Like them or not they're in part 97.203
?> >
?> >Chris WB5ITT?
?> >
?> >On Fri, May 23, 2025, 3:48?€?PM Tom Cole via
?> >
?> >[email protected]> wrote:
?> >That was my point. It is not prohibited, so
?> >therefore is allowed. In fact, one could ID every 5 minutes and be
legal.?
?> >
?> >>On May 23, 2025, at 12:18?€?PM,
?> >>digitalradiohacker via
?> >>
?> >>[email protected]> wrote:
?> >>
?> >>???
?> >>"There isn't anything in the rules that says
?> >>you are supposed to transmit every ten minutes that a repeater is
available"
?> >>
?> >>There probably isn't anything in the rules
?> >>about me wearing a red t-shirt, but I'm doing it anyway.
?> >>If something isn't prohibited, it is allowed.
?> >
?> >
?>
?>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
?> President and CTO - Arcom Controllers
?> Makers of repeater controllers and accessories
?> Phone: (503) 678 6182
?>
?> Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave.
?> We offer complete turn-key repeater packages!
?> "We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"
?> []
?>
?>
?>
?>
?>
?>
?>
--
Untitled Document
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
What is your callsign?? You seem to hiding?something...as to Beacons, any amateur station keying up periodically?and transmitting information (ID, TIME< Telemetry, etc) is a BEACON..GO ask Laura Smith of the FCC, or Riley at the ARRL VM who used to be with FCC EIB...they'll tell you the same exact thing..
Bless your heart...
¡ì 97.203 Beacon station.
(a) Any amateur station licensed to a holder of a Technician, General, Advanced or Amateur Extra Class operator license may be a beacon. A holder of a Technician, General, Advanced or Amateur Extra Class operator license may be the control operator of a beacon, subject to the privileges of the class of operator license held.
(b) A beacon must not concurrently transmit on more than 1 channel in the same amateur service frequency band, from the same station location.
(c) The transmitter power of a beacon must not exceed 100 W.
(d) A beacon may be automatically controlled while it is transmitting on the 28.20-28.30 MHz, 50.06-50.08 MHz, 144.275-144.300 MHz, 222.05-222.06 MHz or 432.300-432.400 MHz segments, or on the 33 cm and shorter wavelength bands.
(e) Before establishing an automatically controlled beacon in the National Radio Quiet Zone or before changing the transmitting frequency, transmitter power, antenna height or directivity, the station licensee must give written notification thereof to the Interference Office, National Radio Astronomy Observatory, P.O. Box 2, Green Bank, WV 24944.
(1) The notification must include the geographical coordinates of the antenna, antenna ground elevation above mean sea level (AMSL), antenna center of radiation above ground level (AGL), antenna directivity, proposed frequency, type of emission, and transmitter power.
(2) If an objection to the proposed operation is received by the FCC from the National Radio Astronomy Observatory at Green Bank, Pocahontas County, WV, for itself or on behalf of the Naval Research Laboratory at Sugar Grove, Pendleton County, WV, within 20 days from the date of notification, the FCC will consider all aspects of the problem and take whatever action is deemed appropriate.
(f) A beacon must cease transmissions upon notification by a Regional Director that the station is operating improperly or causing undue interference to other operations. The beacon may not resume transmitting without prior approval of the Regional Director.
(g) A beacon may transmit one-way communications. On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 6:04?PM digitalradiohacker via <digitalradiohacker= [email protected]> wrote:
Beacon:
Part 97 - Page 5 - section 9 defines "Beacon" as:
An amateur station transmitting communications for the purposes of observation of propagation and reception or other related experimental activities.
?
Sending ID or the time is not for the purpose of observing propagation.
Sending ID or the time is not for the purpose of observing reception.
Sending ID or the time is not for the purpose of other related experimental activities.
The definiton of "Beacon" does not appear to be met here.
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
Excuse me BUT what do you call an autopatch or a manual phone patch on HF? How about?letting a non amateur talk on your station? THATS 3RD Party...
IT has been for decades.....You didn't?look deep enough:
97.115 Third party communications.
(a) An amateur station may transmit messages for a third party to:
(1) Any station within the jurisdiction of the United States.
(2) Any station within the jurisdiction of any foreign government when transmitting emergency or disaster relief communications and any station within the jurisdiction of any foreign government whose administration has made arrangements with the United States to allow amateur stations to be used for transmitting international communications on behalf of third parties. No station shall transmit messages for a third party to any station within the jurisdiction of any foreign government whose administration has not made such an arrangement. This prohibition does not apply to a message for any third party who is eligible to be a control operator of the station.
(b) The third party may participate in stating the message where:
(1) The control operator is present at the control point and is continuously monitoring and supervising the third party's participation; and
(2) The third party is not a prior amateur service licensee whose license was revoked or not renewed after hearing and re-licensing has not taken place; suspended for less than the balance of the license term and the suspension is still in effect; suspended for the balance of the license term and re-licensing has not taken place; or surrendered for cancellation following notice of revocation, suspension or monetary forfeiture proceedings. The third party may not be the subject of a cease and desist order which relates to amateur service operation and which is still in effect.
(c) No station may transmit third party communications while being automatically controlled except a station transmitting a RTTY or data emission.
(d) At the end of an exchange of international third party communications, the station must also transmit in the station identification procedure the call sign of the station with which a third party message was exchanged. On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 5:52?PM digitalradiohacker via <digitalradiohacker= [email protected]> wrote:
Chris,
Page 8 section 47of Part 97 defines "Third party communications" as:
A message from the control operator (first party) of an amateur station to another amateur station control operator (second party) on behalf of another person (third party).
There is no first party.
There is no third party.
There is no "on behalf of" aspect.
The definition of "Third party communications" does not seem to be met here.
|
|
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
Ken, you forgot the important part
WHEN a repeater is beaconing ID every 10min, hour, whatever, since it is NOT in the AUTO BEACON subband, it MUST be monitored by a CONTROL OP as required?by Part 97 on such stations....A repeater NOT repeating but BEACONING is an amateur station beaconing.....plain and simple....so the beacon rules apply...period.
Chris WB5ITT
For giggles, I had to see what ChatGPT had to say about it (I'm certainly
not calling this a qualified source and I've caught ChatGPT in errors
before).
In the United States, beaconing an ID on an amateur repeater is
legal, but there are specific rules that must be followed,
according to the FCC's Part 97 regulations.
Key Points:
- Identification Requirement (¡ì97.119):
- Amateur stations must identify with their FCC-issued callsign
at least every 10 minutes during a communication and at the end
of a communication.
- This can be done via voice, CW, or digital modes.
- Repeater-Specific Rules:
- Repeaters must ID themselves automatically (often via Morse code or
synthesized voice).
- Automatic ID (beaconing) is allowed and commonly implemented on
repeaters to meet ID requirements.
- Beacon vs. Repeater:
- A beacon station is defined differently under ¡ì97.203 ? it
transmits communications for the purpose of observing propagation or
related experimental activities. This is distinct from a repeater.
- You cannot operate a repeater as a beacon station, but you
can transmit periodic ID messages (i.e., beacon-like IDs) as part
of the repeater's operation, as long as the ID conforms to ¡ì97.119.
- Content Restrictions:
- Only station identification and legally permitted control signals
should be transmitted. No advertising or unrelated messages.
Summary:Yes, a repeater can automatically transmit its ID
? often referred to as "beaconing an ID" ? as long as it
follows FCC ID rules (timing, content, and method). This is standard
practice for most amateur repeaters.
If you're outside the U.S., let me know your country ? regulations
differ.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
President and CTO - Arcom Controllers
Makers of repeater controllers and accessories
Phone: (503) 678 6182
Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave.
We offer complete turn-key repeater packages!
"We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"
![[]](http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/arcom.png)
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
A repeater is ONLY a repeater when it is repeating...otherwise it is a amateur station falling under other rules...this is why a REPEATER in Autopatch mode is NOT a repeater but a full duplex base handling third party traffic...THE FCC stated that YEARS ago..and it still holds true.... Regardless of? your thoughts, that's the FCC Official position..you obviously?did not read my earlier replies or just ignored them...fine, its your license that the FCC will issue a NOV/NAL against....they have in several cases over the years....
You can try to justify it all you want.... but the?RULES are the RULES....I am the ONLY non FCC person to correct Riley years ago on a NOV he issued when still at the FCC....Bill Pasternak of AR Newsline, Riley and myself were talking at Dayton....Riley mentioned a NOV he issued and I said he was wrong...I proceeded to quote the rule and his eyes grew open....and he mumbled Crap I guess I'll have to rescind that one...Bill was chuckling and said "See Riley I told you Chris was a walking Part 97 encyclopedia" Riley and I work together even now....plus I work with the Dallas office and Johnny Le the EIC there...
SO go whine and think you are right...YOU'RE WRONG..Sorry you cannot understand the rules or listen to those with more experience and logic than you...
As a ex coworker used to say, it's not MY problem...it's YOURS
Chris WB5ITT
If your station is keying up just to send an ID every 10 minutes without any other activity then it's a beacon.
No it is not. It is a licensed repeater, identifying per regulations. Just because you don¡¯t agree changes nothing. If ALL it did was identify, without ever passing other traffic you would be correct. Since its primary purpose is to pass traffic from one operator to others, it is not a beacon. Have a blessed day . I¡¯m through with this nonsense. We will continue to legally operate as we have for longer than most of you have been licensed.
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
Thats an easy one. PI 5 for the win.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2025-05-23 19:58, Teton Amateur Radio Repeater Association (TARRA) wrote: What about a Pi? Which is better, the 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5?
Mick - W7CAT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Arck AH6LE via groups.io"
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2025 03:28:23 PM
Subject: Re: [repeater-builder] RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
Can we discuss PC vs MAC next?
At 02:04 PM 5/23/2025, Chris Boone WB5ITT via groups.io wrote:
No it's not allowed....ask Riley or Laura Smith..
When a station is not repeating another station,
it falls under other rules. This is the same
thing as when it's in Auto patch mode, it's no
longer a repeater, it's a station carrying
third-party traffic and must follow third-party
traffic rules. If it is beaconing it falls under
the beacon rules! Automatic beaconing on two
meters is restricted to 144.275 to 144.3. If you
are automatically beaconing outside of that sub
band, the rules require a control operator
monitor the transmitter during its operation.
Those are the rules! Like them or not they're in part 97.203
Chris WB5ITT?
On Fri, May 23, 2025, 3:48?€?PM Tom Cole via
groups.io
[email protected]> wrote:
That was my point. It is not prohibited, so
therefore is allowed. In fact, one could ID every 5 minutes and be legal.?
On May 23, 2025, at 12:18?€?PM,
digitalradiohacker via
groups.io
[email protected]> wrote:
???
"There isn't anything in the rules that says
you are supposed to transmit every ten minutes that a repeater is available"
There probably isn't anything in the rules
about me wearing a red t-shirt, but I'm doing it anyway.
If something isn't prohibited, it is allowed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
President and CTO - Arcom Controllers
Makers of repeater controllers and accessories
Phone: (503) 678 6182
Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave.
We offer complete turn-key repeater packages!
"We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"
[]
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
What about a Pi? Which is better, the 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5?
Mick - W7CAT
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Arck AH6LE via groups.io" To: [email protected]Sent: Friday, May 23, 2025 03:28:23 PM Subject: Re: [repeater-builder] RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit Can we discuss PC vs MAC next?
At 02:04 PM 5/23/2025, Chris Boone WB5ITT via groups.io wrote:
No it's not allowed....ask Riley or Laura Smith..
When a station is not repeating another station,
it falls under other rules. This is the same
thing as when it's in Auto patch mode, it's no
longer a repeater, it's a station carrying
third-party traffic and must follow third-party
traffic rules. If it is beaconing it falls under
the beacon rules! Automatic beaconing on two
meters is restricted to 144.275 to 144.3. If you
are automatically beaconing outside of that sub
band, the rules require a control operator
monitor the transmitter during its operation.
Those are the rules! Like them or not they're in part 97.203
Chris WB5ITT?
On Fri, May 23, 2025, 3:48?€?PM Tom Cole via
groups.io
[email protected]> wrote:
That was my point. It is not prohibited, so
therefore is allowed. In fact, one could ID every 5 minutes and be legal.?
On May 23, 2025, at 12:18?€?PM,
digitalradiohacker via
groups.io
[email protected]> wrote:
???
"There isn't anything in the rules that says
you are supposed to transmit every ten minutes that a repeater is
available"
There probably isn't anything in the rules
about me wearing a red t-shirt, but I'm doing it anyway.
If something isn't prohibited, it is allowed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ President and CTO - Arcom Controllers
Makers of repeater controllers and accessories
Phone: (503) 678 6182
Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave.
We offer complete turn-key repeater packages!
"We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"
[]
-- Untitled Document
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
Beacon:
Part 97 - Page 5 - section 9 defines "Beacon" as:
An amateur station transmitting communications for the purposes of observation of propagation and reception or other related experimental activities.
?
Sending ID or the time is not for the purpose of observing propagation.
Sending ID or the time is not for the purpose of observing reception.
Sending ID or the time is not for the purpose of other related experimental activities.
The definiton of "Beacon" does not appear to be met here.
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
Chris,
Page 8 section 47of Part 97 defines "Third party communications" as:
A message from the control operator (first party) of an amateur station to another amateur station control operator (second party) on behalf of another person (third party).
There is no first party.
There is no third party.
There is no "on behalf of" aspect.
The definition of "Third party communications" does not seem to be met here.
|
|
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
For giggles, I had to see what ChatGPT had to say about it (I'm certainly
not calling this a qualified source and I've caught ChatGPT in errors
before).
In the United States, beaconing an ID on an amateur repeater is
legal, but there are specific rules that must be followed,
according to the FCC's Part 97 regulations.
Key Points:
- Identification Requirement (¡ì97.119):
- Amateur stations must identify with their FCC-issued callsign
at least every 10 minutes during a communication and at the end
of a communication.
- This can be done via voice, CW, or digital modes.
- Repeater-Specific Rules:
- Repeaters must ID themselves automatically (often via Morse code or
synthesized voice).
- Automatic ID (beaconing) is allowed and commonly implemented on
repeaters to meet ID requirements.
- Beacon vs. Repeater:
- A beacon station is defined differently under ¡ì97.203 ? it
transmits communications for the purpose of observing propagation or
related experimental activities. This is distinct from a repeater.
- You cannot operate a repeater as a beacon station, but you
can transmit periodic ID messages (i.e., beacon-like IDs) as part
of the repeater's operation, as long as the ID conforms to ¡ì97.119.
- Content Restrictions:
- Only station identification and legally permitted control signals
should be transmitted. No advertising or unrelated messages.
Summary:Yes, a repeater can automatically transmit its ID
? often referred to as "beaconing an ID" ? as long as it
follows FCC ID rules (timing, content, and method). This is standard
practice for most amateur repeaters.
If you're outside the U.S., let me know your country ? regulations
differ.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
President and CTO - Arcom Controllers
Makers of repeater controllers and accessories
Phone: (503) 678 6182
Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave.
We offer complete turn-key repeater packages!
"We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
If your station is keying up just to send an ID every 10 minutes without any other activity then it's a beacon.
No it is not. It is a licensed repeater, identifying per regulations. Just because you don¡¯t agree changes nothing. If ALL it did was identify, without ever passing other traffic you would be correct. Since its primary purpose is to pass traffic from one operator to others, it is not a beacon. Have a blessed day . I¡¯m through with this nonsense. We will continue to legally operate as we have for longer than most of you have been licensed.
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
Can we discuss PC vs MAC next?
At 02:04 PM 5/23/2025, Chris Boone WB5ITT via groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
No it's not allowed....ask Riley
or Laura Smith..
When a station is not repeating another station, it falls under other
rules. This is the same thing as when it's in Auto patch mode, it's no
longer a repeater, it's a station carrying third-party traffic and must
follow third-party traffic rules. If it is beaconing it falls under the
beacon rules! Automatic beaconing on two meters is restricted to 144.275
to 144.3. If you are automatically beaconing outside of that sub band,
the rules require a control operator monitor the transmitter during its
operation. Those are the rules! Like them or not they're in part
97.203
Chris WB5ITT?
On Fri, May 23, 2025, 3:48?€?PM Tom Cole via
<tomcole1=
[email protected]> wrote:
- That was my point. It is not prohibited, so therefore is allowed. In
fact, one could ID every 5 minutes and be legal.?
- On May 23, 2025, at 12:18?€?PM, digitalradiohacker via
<digitalradiohacker=
[email protected]> wrote:
- ???
- "There isn't anything in the rules that says you are supposed to
transmit every ten minutes that a repeater is available"
- There probably isn't anything in the rules about me wearing a red
t-shirt, but I'm doing it anyway.
- If something isn't prohibited, it is allowed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
President and CTO - Arcom Controllers
Makers of repeater controllers and accessories
Phone: (503) 678 6182
Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave.
We offer complete turn-key repeater packages!
"We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"
|
Re: RC-210 and SLR-8000 PL Inhibit
Not at all. Transmitting the repeater ID every 10 minutes is not only legal, but required.
?
? ? ?? Tom you need to read part 97 and take your license test again... the only time the repeaters required to ID is when it's in use!
> What is the reason for ID'ing every 10 minutes?? To pollute the channel with more RF?? To remind everybody what the repeater's callsign is?? What exactly is the purpose?
The purpose is that the FCC states we must ID every ten minutes.
>
> Likewise, what is the purpose of 'grandfather clock' ID's?? Doesn't everybody have a watch, a cell phone, a clock, or some other timekeeping device with or near them at all times already?? More RF pollution, more FCC violations.?
Again, your interpretation. Why are you so concerned about your supposed ¡°RF pollution¡±?
>
> Going back to the original discussion regarding DMR beaconing, that, too, has already been "addressed" by the FCC in several instances in my area.? The relevant rule section is 97.203(d):
>
> (d) A beacon may be automatically controlled while it is transmitting on the 28.20©\28.30 MHz, 50.06©\
> 50.08 MHz, 144.275©\144.300 MHz, 222.05©\222.06 MHz or 432.300©\432.400 MHz segments, or on the 33
> cm and shorter wavelength bands.
>
Transmitting your ID is not the same as beaconing. Get over yourself Jeff. When YOU become head of the FCC, then you get to dictate to others. Until then, go pound sand.
If your station is keying up just to send an ID every 10 minutes without any other activity then it's a beacon. The FCC has stated that in several NOVs and NALs. Go ask Riley Hollingsworth or Laura Smith and they'll tell you the exact same damn thing I'm telling you right now. You cannot Beacon ID 24/7 or anytime in the repeater bands unless a control operator is monitoring the station at the time it is beaconing, even JUST AN ID! OR GRANDFATHER CLOCK... These repeaters that Beacon 24/7, there's no damn control operator monitoring at 3:00 in the morning and that is 100% illegal. You can go pound sand
One person I know in Houston was iding beaconing on 29.6 off of his UHF link system every 10 damn minutes. The guys on 29.6 got pissed and somebody finally got hold of Riley who wrote an email or letter to the ham and told him turn it off or face a NOV from Laura Smith of the FCC who took Riley's spot when he retired. Needless to say he turned it off.
Chris WB5ITT? ex WR5AOK...from the Prose Walker days of repeaters...sorry kids you don't know what you missed in the 70s...
|
Chris Boone WB5ITT
digitalradiohacker
Ken Arck AH6LE