Yes.
It's like a cross between the original voter board and the RTCM. But really I wanted a better layout to the original voter.
The board can use an internal GPS and has provisions to run the microcontroller off of it if you have a dual output unit board like the UBlox RCB-F9T.
External GPS is RS-232 and TTL capable jumper selectable.?
Added COS input and PL encode output control, but will need software modifications to implement.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 12:34 RFI-EMI-GUY < rhyolite@...> wrote: DCFluX
Is this a new RTCM? Details please??
On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 11:37 AM, DCFluX wrote:
Radio Thick Client Module just dropped.
?
--
The Real RFI-EMI-GUY
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- For those integrating Motorola SpectraTac or DigiTac with non Motorola receivers or Motorola receivers lacking the C269 option. Those voters require 15 ms of silence after the status tone drops and before voice appears on the circuit. Without this "tag", the AGC will wander aimlessly. You will probably not find this documented anywhere else, but buried in the receiver C269 option will be a mute circuit and timer. I am not sure any of the aftermarket status tone encoders consider this. So unless you are prepared to cobble up this arrangement on your brand X, stay away from those voters.
? There¡¯s no reason to keep AGC when using a backhaul that you have level-control over, i.e. if you¡¯re usting most anything other than analog telco circuits.? Disabling the AGC is the first thing you should do when using a SpectraTAC with RF links or any other backhaul where you don¡¯t want, or can¡¯t have, status tone up all the time. ? The mods to use SpectraTAC voters with COR are well-documented on the repeater-builder web site and elsewhere.? GE voters are even easier. ? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? --- Jeff WN3A ?
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For those integrating Motorola SpectraTac or DigiTac with non Motorola receivers or Motorola receivers lacking the C269 option. Those voters require 15 ms of silence after the status tone drops and before voice appears on the circuit. Without this "tag", the AGC will wander aimlessly. You will probably not find this documented anywhere else, but buried in the receiver C269 option will be a mute circuit and timer. I am not sure any of the aftermarket status tone encoders consider this. So unless you are prepared to cobble up this arrangement on your brand X, stay away from those voters.
--
The Real RFI-EMI-GUY
|
DCFluX
Is this a new RTCM? Details please??
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 11:37 AM, DCFluX wrote:
Radio Thick Client Module just dropped.
? -- The Real RFI-EMI-GUY
|
Stephen, You could build your own in case you find an older one. That's what I do (farmer thinking process). If they don't make it, I will. A simple set of flop flops (IC) lead by a DTMF signal should do the trick. Try laying in bed at night thinking / dreaming up such projects. Then jump out of bed and scribble down notes so you don't forget.? Of course, that's after wife/SO attention / chores, etc.? LOL. -- - Regards, Karl Shoemaker To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at? for the current email address. Stephen Slider
The problem that I see with a lot of these new voting systems is they don't interface well with external controllers. That is to say, you can't enable or disable receivers using logic lines on your controller like you can with an LDG or Doug Hall voter. Am I missing something? I've also got a stake in this is why I ask.
?
Stephen KG4PTO
|
I would rather use a fan dipole, no balun.? I use a antenna analyzer and have a light tuner anyway.
I am suspicious of all the QRP baluns for end fed.? Anyone is likely to bump the power which leads
to saturation and harmonic generation.
I know if you are really doing QRP portable, you want quick and easy, and it can be a problem in
a lot of places tying a wire to "anything green".? Sometimes they won't even let you put a peg into
the grass.
I have seen a lot of 100 watt radios that were used with compromised antennas and the people
who do it say: "oh the radio will protect itself" but they are often down to 75 to 80 watts so there
is wear and tear from regularly playing into even a marginal SWR.
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If someone is looking at buying some of the RTCM, my want to look at doing some simulcast.
Mick - W7CAT
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Show quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kingston" To: [email protected]Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 09:57:34 AM Subject: Re: [repeater-builder] Voter Systems Allstar/RTCM deals with audio delays by applying a GPS derived timestamp to every frame of audio samples so the voter can align them. All the RTCMs in the system have GPS receivers with 1PPS outputs to give near microsecond
accuracy on the timestamps.
S/N is measured at the receivers and sent with the audio frames to the
voter.
-Doug-, KD7DK
On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 7:51 AM wj9jrg wrote:
I would think, the biggest issue with digital over internet would be
getting your audio delays to line up. Although, I could be wrong. If
its continuous voting S/N, it will cause issues.
Someone educate me, if I am wrong. Every mode I have seen digital would not lend itself to S/N voting at the transmitter site. (At least not
continuous).
Andy
On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 10:15 AM steven harvey
wrote:
I do appreciate everyone's reply on this thread. It gives me a lot of
information to research and decide what I would like to do. It
seems to me going digital would be the best way for the long run as the
manufactures are doing more and more digital radios. Plus it seems logical to
me that what you put down the link is not going to care if it came out of the
receiver as analog or another digital mode.
The mesh option does make me stop and think as we have a solid
private mesh around here that I could use.
The Motorola option seems to be one that I could go with too. The
Motorola Motobridge that Ranger Radio stated that has 8 voting
slots is there a device that goes on the receiver site side? Can you give
me what a good price might be for used and is this still a production item
or has it been end of life from Motorola?
If Doug, KD7DK could PM me I would like to speak with you about
the PSRG system and its gotcha's or how it works most of the time.
Thanks!
Steven Harvey
N8RLW
Mount Vernon, Ohio
-- Untitled Document
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Re: Two UHF repeaters sharing the same antenna.
Yes.
Motorola UHF community repeaters were done this way for years
configured the following way:
- 500 MHz or more spacing between transmit frequencies
- 4 cavity Bandpass duplexers on each repeater
- DUAL circulator/isolator on the output of each transmitter
between the duplexer and transmitter
- Proper cable lengths between the output of each duplexer to
the common shared antenna
Worked great with minimal losses and no desensce. If you look at
the spec sheet for the T1500 series of duplexer, you may find the
cable information in that document for doing just this. A UHF 50
ohm antenna combiner/splitter would do the same thing of combining
the outputs of each duplexer.
73, Jim W7RY
On 11/16/2022 9:11 AM, Keith Ford
wrote:
can I put two UHF repeaters on the same antenna by
putting some filtering in between them one is in business band
and the other one is amateur radio band. Just reaching out there
in a group has anybody ever done this before I've got one
antenna that is damaged it appears to have water in it and the
SWR is high.
thanks.
KF4RGR? ? ? ?Keith Ford
--
Thanks and 73, Jim W7RY
|
Re: Multiple repeaters sharing a common power supply - pros and cons
Bob,? Option 3 might work, only if all the repeaters (stations) are under the same ¡°roof¡± by that meaning, the same Club/Org/Owner. If they are not, will all the Clubs work together?? In my experience I¡¯ve noticed different Clubs/orgs don¡¯t always play well in the same sandbox.? This is especially true with governmental agencies around the? State, and County.? From what I¡¯ve noticed they seem to have their own ¡°territories¡± (and egos) and don¡¯t wanna share resources or knowledge. It¡¯s sad thing and the Public or media does not appear (to me) to expose these inefficient ways of spending resources.? Anyway, that¡¯s not relevant to this amateur project but it does display a respective to human nature and what to expect.
For amateur I proposed an antenna combining system (and power supply) at a busy site with multiple amateur groups/repeater and boy, did I get some blowback on that proposal. Each group likes to do their own thing; ¡°tolerates¡± the others (no rock throwing) but hell may freeze over before they would share resources like that. In all fairness some folks don't utilize good standards, such as neatness in wiring, circuit protection and documentation.? I've seen the inside of some cabinets that look like a hornet's nest.
I hope this does not rain on your parade because it¡¯s very good, proactive and productive you are asking for choices.? So to be redundant (which I normally don¡¯t do) go with sharing resources for the good of all. You folks can share costs, technical talents (for backup if someone is sick, etc.) and keep all systems up and running.? You might consider some sort of fault isolation. For example, if someone drops a ¡°wrench¡± across the battery bank.? Things happen; we are human. At the very least fuse/circuit break close to the bank.? I¡¯ve got a few engineering projects on the web site.
The other post mentioned you¡¯d be without 110/220v for a generator switch. That¡¯s called ¡°delay to transfer¡±.? Then when the grid power returns it will happen again.? With my career with the State we used several functions for the APU:
1. Line sense (frequency sometimes and voltage drop). It would "filter" (or ignore) brief glitches.
2. Delay to start (STS).
3. Delay to transfer to ¡°EM¡±. (DTT) This gives the motor time to warm and stabilize a little. Some of those motors were rather old.
4. Delay to transfer to ¡°COM¡± (commercial power) back to the grid.
5. Delay APU shutdown.
When the site would loose power (even right away in the case of icing sparking lines) the whole process would start over.
Most of the equipment was on a battery bank anyway, so the DTT's would not affect the equipment. That would be the microwave gear and the LMR stations.
It was "mission critical" so even a brief outage was not an option.
--
-
Regards, Karl Shoemaker
To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at?
for the current email address.
|
Re: Multiple repeaters sharing a common power supply - pros and cons
?I don't like the voltage drop when using a Powergate.
If you simply use a design from the commercial/public safety and
microwave folks use... Float the power supply directly across the
batteries. With the proper fusing of course. No losses that way.
Large switching (RF quiet in the VHF/UHF bands) power supplies are
commonplace these days. Just be sure you can have voltage across the
power supply terminals (from the battery) when the power supply has
no AC power.
The Astron RS line of power supplies you cant do that without
modifications. The RS series of supplies are quickly becoming
obsolete anyway.
73, Jim W7RY
Our amateur radio club has three separate repeaters plus a packet
node running at a single site located in the woods on a
mountaintop.? The building has AC utility company power.? There is
also an automatic residential backup generator supplied by a 320
gallon propane tank.? Each repeater has a separate power supply.?
Two are linear and two are digital.? Two of the repeaters have 105
amp-hour AGM backup batteries and automatic battery switches
(PWRgate).
The batteries were our only source of backup power before the
generator was installed.? Both batteries have now reached the end
of their useful lives.
It would be nice to have backup power for all four repeaters, if
we can afford it.
We are considering the following options:
1. Eliminate the batteries entirely and assume that the generator
will always start and have sufficient fuel.? (cost = $0)
2. Replace the two existing batteries.? (cost = $700+)
3. Reconfigure the equipment to create a single DC power system
with redundant power supplies and multiple batteries and use it to
power all four repeaters.? (cost = $1000+)
4. Buy a backup battery and 2 more PWRgates so that every system
has its own backup battery.? (cost = $1700+)
I recently spoke with someone who said that a local commercial
tower site has a single power system for all of its repeaters.
(i.e. option #3 above)
We are depending on our repeaters for emergency communications, so
it seems to me that option #4 would provide the greatest degree of
reliability.? If one repeater malfunctions and draws a lot of
power, the other repeaters aren't affected because they have their
own, separate batteries.? But since funding is limited, I could
also make a case for "pooling" those batteries so the total energy
in the bank can go to where it is needed.
Here's my question:? How do other people handle this?? Is option
#4 overkill?? Is option #3 the most common approach?
Thanks.
Bob Snyder KC3KVS
--
Thanks and 73, Jim W7RY
|
Allstar/RTCM deals with audio delays by applying a GPS derived timestamp to every frame of audio samples so the voter can align them.? All the RTCMs in the system have GPS receivers with 1PPS outputs to give near microsecond accuracy on the timestamps.
S/N is measured at the receivers and sent with the audio frames to the voter.
-Doug-, KD7DK
On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 7:51 AM wj9jrg < wj9jrg@...> wrote: I would think, the biggest issue with digital over internet would be getting your audio delays to line up.?? Although, I could be wrong.?? If its continuous voting S/N, it will cause issues.
Someone educate me, if I am wrong.?? Every mode I have seen digital would not lend itself to S/N voting at the transmitter site. (At least not continuous).
Andy
On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 10:15 AM steven harvey < sharvey@...> wrote: I do appreciate everyone's reply on this thread.??? It gives me a lot of information to research and decide what I would like to do.??? It seems to me going digital would be the best way for the long run as the manufactures are doing more and more digital radios.?? Plus it seems logical to me that what you put down the link is not going to care if it came out of the receiver as analog or another digital mode.??
The mesh option does make me stop and think as we have a solid private mesh around here that I could use.
The Motorola option seems to be one that I could go with too.??? The Motorola Motobridge that Ranger Radio stated that has 8 voting slots is there a device that goes on the receiver site side? ? Can you give me what a good price might be for used and is this still a production item or has it been end of life from Motorola?
If Doug, KD7DK could PM me I would like to speak with you about the PSRG system and its gotcha's or how it works most of the time.
Thanks!
Steven Harvey
N8RLW
Mount Vernon, Ohio
|
Re: Multiple repeaters sharing a common power supply - pros and cons
At most of our sites we have multiple repeaters and other equipment running from a single (or typically dual) 13.8v supply. One site has over ten repeaters (all 25 watt or less) running this way. But your costs are somewhat exaggerated, and the way we hook them up is different, similar to number 3 on your list.
What you really want to do is provide a "charger" and a battery. The chargers we use are typically Iota type power supplies, usually the 45 or 55 amp variety. They can be purchased for under $200 each, brand new. They connect directly to the battery, and that battery connects through a low voltage disconnect to a distribution panel for the DC to the repeaters. That's basically it. Your battery bank will be the most expensive part, depending on how many batteries you use, but a single 100AH battery would be a start if you only had to hold equipment running for an hour or so (probably longer). Two or three batteries if you wanted to go for a longer time.
As mentioned previously, remote alarms and monitoring would be good, that way you know ahead of time that your charger has failed, and that you are running on DC.
|
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Radio Thick Client Module just dropped.
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Re: Two UHF repeaters sharing the same antenna.
I once had two Quantars on UHF sharing one antenna...one on 451.5 xmit and the other on 444.5 xmit.. took a 6 can notch only duplexer and some careful tuning..the 449.5 side had about 7 db loss which I probably could have tuned better and got less loss...WA5VDM, who owned a Motorola MSS, said if I could do that with two Quantars, I could do it with anything ?.. couldn't argue with success though.. spectrum analyzer showed it clean with both xmtrs keyed up.
Chris WB5ITT?
can I put two UHF repeaters on the same antenna by putting some filtering in between them one is in business band and the other one is amateur radio band. Just reaching out there in a group has anybody ever done this before I've got one antenna that is damaged it appears to have water in it and the SWR is high. thanks. KF4RGR? ? ? ?Keith Ford
|
The problem that I see with a lot of these new voting systems is they don't interface well with external controllers. That is to say, you can't enable or disable receivers using logic lines on your controller like you can with an LDG or Doug Hall voter. Am I missing something? I've also got a stake in this is why I ask.
Stephen KG4PTO
On Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 10:51 AM wj9jrg < wj9jrg@...> wrote: I would think, the biggest issue with digital over internet would be getting your audio delays to line up.?? Although, I could be wrong.?? If its continuous voting S/N, it will cause issues.
Someone educate me, if I am wrong.?? Every mode I have seen digital would not lend itself to S/N voting at the transmitter site. (At least not continuous).
Andy
On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 10:15 AM steven harvey < sharvey@...> wrote: I do appreciate everyone's reply on this thread.??? It gives me a lot of information to research and decide what I would like to do.??? It seems to me going digital would be the best way for the long run as the manufactures are doing more and more digital radios.?? Plus it seems logical to me that what you put down the link is not going to care if it came out of the receiver as analog or another digital mode.??
The mesh option does make me stop and think as we have a solid private mesh around here that I could use.
The Motorola option seems to be one that I could go with too.??? The Motorola Motobridge that Ranger Radio stated that has 8 voting slots is there a device that goes on the receiver site side? ? Can you give me what a good price might be for used and is this still a production item or has it been end of life from Motorola?
If Doug, KD7DK could PM me I would like to speak with you about the PSRG system and its gotcha's or how it works most of the time.
Thanks!
Steven Harvey
N8RLW
Mount Vernon, Ohio
|
Mike, I'm interested, what's your email address or number? Thanks Mike / K5JR
Steven, I have a Doug Hall that I no longer need and will be putting it up for sale. It¡¯s a 4 channel version.?
tnx
Mike / K5JR?
Alpharetta GA
-- - Regards, Karl Shoemaker To contact me, please visit SRG's web site at? for the current email address.
|
I would think, the biggest issue with digital over internet would be getting your audio delays to line up.?? Although, I could be wrong.?? If its continuous voting S/N, it will cause issues.
Someone educate me, if I am wrong.?? Every mode I have seen digital would not lend itself to S/N voting at the transmitter site. (At least not continuous).
Andy
On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 10:15 AM steven harvey < sharvey@...> wrote: I do appreciate everyone's reply on this thread.??? It gives me a lot of information to research and decide what I would like to do.??? It seems to me going digital would be the best way for the long run as the manufactures are doing more and more digital radios.?? Plus it seems logical to me that what you put down the link is not going to care if it came out of the receiver as analog or another digital mode.??
The mesh option does make me stop and think as we have a solid private mesh around here that I could use.
The Motorola option seems to be one that I could go with too.??? The Motorola Motobridge that Ranger Radio stated that has 8 voting slots is there a device that goes on the receiver site side? ? Can you give me what a good price might be for used and is this still a production item or has it been end of life from Motorola?
If Doug, KD7DK could PM me I would like to speak with you about the PSRG system and its gotcha's or how it works most of the time.
Thanks!
Steven Harvey
N8RLW
Mount Vernon, Ohio
|
Re: Multiple repeaters sharing a common power supply - pros and cons
"Put all the eggs in one basket and carefully watch the basket." If the funding is there, I'd go with option 3, and also add some alarming/remote monitoring to the generator and DC power system. Eric
WB6TIX
|
Re: Multiple repeaters sharing a common power supply - pros and cons
I would think the first step is to measure your typical power outage length.?? We have a site in Crossville, TN (very rural).?? They don't have a smart power grid, so when they have to do work, there have to kill power to that leg of the circuit.?? Consequently, we see lots of 20 minute outages (about every other week).?? The easy fix was a UPS.?? A better fix would have been an AGM battery, but we didn't want to carry 80 lbs up a 100 foot tower to the cab.??? We took the easy way out.
I know that doesn't answer your option question.?? Another thing to think about is can some of the emergency agencies pitch in to buy some batteries for you??? We have had that happen here.?? That can lessen your costs.?? We have had the DHS help.
Andy WJ9J
Our amateur radio club has three separate repeaters plus a packet node running at a single site located in the woods on a mountaintop.? The building has AC utility company power.? There is also an automatic residential backup generator supplied by a 320 gallon propane tank.? Each repeater has a separate power supply.? Two are linear and two are digital.? Two of the repeaters have 105 amp-hour AGM backup batteries and automatic battery switches (PWRgate).
The batteries were our only source of backup power before the generator was installed.? Both batteries have now reached the end of their useful lives.
It would be nice to have backup power for all four repeaters, if we can afford it.
We are considering the following options:
1. Eliminate the batteries entirely and assume that the generator will always start and have sufficient fuel.? (cost = $0)
2. Replace the two existing batteries.? (cost = $700+)
3. Reconfigure the equipment to create a single DC power system with redundant power supplies and multiple batteries and use it to power all four repeaters.? (cost = $1000+)
4. Buy a backup battery and 2 more PWRgates so that every system has its own backup battery.? (cost = $1700+)
I recently spoke with someone who said that a local commercial tower site has a single power system for all of its repeaters. (i.e. option #3 above)
We are depending on our repeaters for emergency communications, so it seems to me that option #4 would provide the greatest degree of reliability.? If one repeater malfunctions and draws a lot of power, the other repeaters aren't affected because they have their own, separate batteries.? But since funding is limited, I could also make a case for "pooling" those batteries so the total energy in the bank can go to where it is needed.
Here's my question:? How do other people handle this?? Is option #4 overkill?? Is option #3 the most common approach?
Thanks.
Bob Snyder KC3KVS
|
RFI-EMI-GUY
Karl Shoemaker
Doug Kingston, KD7DK
Chris Boone WB5ITT