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Things to watch out for building crystal oscillators


Doug Hendricks
 

I ordered one thousand 4.096 MHz crystals from China Monday. They came last night at 9:00 PM. Tonight I decided to sit down and see how many matched sets of 4 within 10 Hz I could get from a bag of 100.

I sat down with a frequency counter and Chuck's Colpits oscillator. Put in the first crystal and the darn thing drifet down like crazy. 30 Hz in seconds. Oh no, this won't work. Did I get ripped off? Then I thought, wait a minute. I had better check the 2 voltage divider caps. They better be npo or c0g. Oops. Chinese caps marked 151 only. So, pulled the 2 caps. Went to the supply. No npo or c0g caps. Closest I have that are npo are 270. Chuck said to experiment. So I tried them, worked fine. No drift. On to matching crystals. No problems until battery in frequency counter got low. Replaced battery and everything worked. I got 20 sets of 4 crystals matched to 10 Hz. My question is how close do the other two crystals have to be?? 100 Hz, 200 Hz???


 

better use Multilayer capacitors wiktyh leads. I also suggest for each crystal wait for 15 sec before recording its freqncy. Let it settle. You may try to avoid air thrust on the jig and crystal under test.All best for a rich yiel;d of 4 groups.
sarma?vu3zmv

On Sunday, 26 November 2017 9:24 AM, Doug Hendricks via Groups.Io <ki6ds13@...> wrote:


I ordered one thousand 4.096 MHz crystals from China Monday.? They came last night at 9:00 PM.? Tonight I decided to sit down and see how many matched sets of 4 within 10 Hz I could get from a bag of 100.

I sat down with a frequency counter and Chuck's Colpits oscillator.? Put in the first crystal and the darn thing drifet down like crazy.? 30 Hz in seconds.? Oh no, this won't work.? Did I get ripped off?? Then I thought, wait a minute.? I had better check the 2 voltage divider caps. They better be npo or c0g.? Oops.? Chinese caps marked 151 only.? So, pulled the 2 caps.? Went to the supply.? No npo or c0g caps.? Closest I have that are npo are 270.? Chuck said to experiment.? So I tried them, worked fine.? No drift.? On to matching crystals.? No problems until battery in frequency counter got low.? Replaced battery and everything worked.? I got 20 sets of 4 crystals matched to 10 Hz.? My question is how close do the other two crystals have to be??? 100 Hz, 200 Hz???


 

Hi Doug ---

The other two crystals both have trimmers associated with them. Should be able to adjust them a few hundred cycles.

The real questions: Would we actually prefer X5 or X6 to be some amount above or below the filter crystal frequency? If so, by how much? That is to say for both those crystals (and I would expect different answers for each) what would be the optimal frequency to have with their associated trimmers set to mid range?

And a related question: For those with minimal test equipment, what is the best way to adjust C34 and C17?

For C17 we would want to place a test signal at the center of the passband of the crystal filter and adjust C17 for the desired tone at the headphone output (600 Hz for example). The test signal could be at the IF or 7 MHz frequency range. Knowing when it is centered in the crystal filter passband is the tricky part. Just looking for max audio output may not be best due to audio filtering effects. A scope looking at AF1 is probably best.

Once C17 is set properly C34 should be adjusted so we get the same offset between transmit and receive. That is for a station we are talking to if they are "zero beat" to our frequency we will hear them where we should. Its not clear what easy way will accomplish that.

Other related questions: If the crystal filter crystals are not well matched, will we hear any difference in received audio? I suspect the filter will be a little wider. Build on board #2 here will use sockets for X1-X4 and try to investigate that. It may well be we are getting excited about perfect matching when it doesn't make that much difference to the average user of the rig.

73/72 - Mike WA8BXN




From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Doug Hendricks via Groups.Io <ki6ds13@...>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 10:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [qrp-tech] Things to watch out for building crystal oscillators
?

I ordered one thousand 4.096 MHz crystals from China Monday.? They came last night at 9:00 PM.? Tonight I decided to sit down and see how many matched sets of 4 within 10 Hz I could get from a bag of 100.

I sat down with a frequency counter and Chuck's Colpits oscillator.? Put in the first crystal and the darn thing drifet down like crazy.? 30 Hz in seconds.? Oh no, this won't work.? Did I get ripped off?? Then I thought, wait a minute.? I had better check the 2 voltage divider caps. They better be npo or c0g.? Oops.? Chinese caps marked 151 only.? So, pulled the 2 caps.? Went to the supply.? No npo or c0g caps.? Closest I have that are npo are 270.? Chuck said to experiment.? So I tried them, worked fine.? No drift.? On to matching crystals.? No problems until battery in frequency counter got low.? Replaced battery and everything worked.? I got 20 sets of 4 crystals matched to 10 Hz.? My question is how close do the other two crystals have to be??? 100 Hz, 200 Hz???


 

Thinking about this a bit more ... once C17 is properly set it may be that the setting of C34 is trivial (well more or less). Since the transmit sidetone is generated by listening to the transmitted signal in the receiver, C34 may simply be adjusted to get the same offset tone used in setting? C17 when transmitting (into a dummy load of course).?


73/72 - Mike WA8BXN




From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Mike WA8BXN <hubby2k@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 9:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [qrp-tech] Things to watch out for building crystal oscillators
?

Hi Doug ---

The other two crystals both have trimmers associated with them. Should be able to adjust them a few hundred cycles.

The real questions: Would we actually prefer X5 or X6 to be some amount above or below the filter crystal frequency? If so, by how much? That is to say for both those crystals (and I would expect different answers for each) what would be the optimal frequency to have with their associated trimmers set to mid range?

And a related question: For those with minimal test equipment, what is the best way to adjust C34 and C17?

For C17 we would want to place a test signal at the center of the passband of the crystal filter and adjust C17 for the desired tone at the headphone output (600 Hz for example). The test signal could be at the IF or 7 MHz frequency range.? Knowing when it is centered in the crystal filter passband is the tricky part. Just looking for max audio output may not be best due to audio filtering effects. A scope looking at AF1 is probably best.

Once C17 is set properly C34 should be adjusted so we get the same offset between transmit and receive. That is for a station we are talking to if they are "zero beat" to our frequency we will hear them where we should. Its not clear what easy way will accomplish that.

Other related questions: If the crystal filter crystals are not well matched, will we hear any difference in received audio? I suspect the filter will be a little wider. Build on board #2 here will use sockets for X1-X4 and try to investigate that. It may well be we are getting excited about perfect matching when it doesn't make that much difference to the average user of the rig.

73/72 - Mike WA8BXN


 

I think you might be over thinking this, Mike.
Once you have the rig working its easy, at least it was for me.
If you have ever had a rig with adjustable BFO or Passband tuning, its obvious from the sound of the background noise
where your BFO needs to be.
Then tune some weakish signals and see if the peak is at the pitch you prefer.
Then hit transmit and adjust the TX offset to the same tone. Listening to your own signal for the sidetone is one
of the great features of the NC40 I think, same thing I have always done with my big rigs.
With a matched set of Chuck's crystals and the specified circuit values, I can (just) get my desired 400Hz.
If you like a higher tone, you probably need to change the osc. parts or the crystals.
If you can get your TX offset to go through zero beat, you can confirm you are on the right sideband, I had to do this
with my other rig.
73,
Gary
WB6OGD

On 11/26/2017 8:37 AM, Mike WA8BXN wrote:
Thinking about this a bit more ... once C17 is properly set it may be that the setting of C34 is trivial (well more or less). Since the transmit sidetone is generated by listening to the transmitted signal in the receiver, C34 may simply be adjusted to get the same offset tone used in setting? C17 when transmitting (into a dummy load of courI thise).


73/72 - Mike WA8BXN




From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Mike WA8BXN <hubby2k@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 9:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [qrp-tech] Things to watch out for building crystal oscillators

Hi Doug ---

The other two crystals both have trimmers associated with them. Should be able to adjust them a few hundred cycles.

The real questions: Would we actually prefer X5 or X6 to be some amount above or below the filter crystal frequency? If so, by how much? That is to say for both those crystals (and I would expect different answers for each) what would be the optimal frequency to have with their associated trimmers set to mid range?

And a related question: For those with minimal test equipment, what is the best way to adjust C34 and C17?

For C17 we would want to place a test signal at the center of the passband of the crystal filter and adjust C17 for the desired tone at the headphone output (600 Hz for example). The test signal could be at the IF or 7 MHz frequency range.? Knowing when it is centered in the crystal filter passband is the tricky part. Just looking for max audio output may not be best due to audio filtering effects. A scope looking at AF1 is probably best.

Once C17 is set properly C34 should be adjusted so we get the same offset between transmit and receive. That is for a station we are talking to if they are "zero beat" to our frequency we will hear them where we should. Its not clear what easy way will accomplish that.

Other related questions: If the crystal filter crystals are not well matched, will we hear any difference in received audio? I suspect the filter will be a little wider. Build on board #2 here will use sockets for X1-X4 and try to investigate that. It may well be we are getting excited about perfect matching when it doesn't make that much difference to the average user of the rig.

73/72 - Mike WA8BXN





 

The way I do it is thus:

Crystals age. If you measure them and then repeat the procedure
24 hrs. later, the results will be different.

First, use good quality crystals, usually of a name brand like
Fox, KDS, or Crystek. If one orders a batch, they are almost always
from the same manufacture lot, and will match fairly well.
Different lots may not match together very well. The manufacturers
pack them in bags of 500 or so, sometimes bags of 100. It is a
good idea to order at least a lot this size.

Lately, surplus "old new lots" are a better deal than new ones.
if you can find them. Sometimes you will get a lot with wildly disparate
results. If that happens, start over. Also, figure on at least a few bad ones
in even good lots. Throw them away.

I use a G3UUR muppet board oscillator featured a while back
on this list. Actually, I have 5 or 6 different test oscillators; that one
seems to work the best. I first mark all the crystals with a black marker,
numbering them consecutively. Then I measure them and record the results.
including the "output" of each crystal in mv. Capacitor measurements
are averaged for the lot and that figure is used. In building a filter, almost all
of the material criteria lies in closely matching frequency. The other things matter,
but not a whole lot. Both the series and parallel resonance should match
fairly well. But good results can be had with a "straight" measurement and
a "pulled" measurement with a capacitor. Usually the crystals that match
with one will be fairly close with the other. Sometimes they will not and those are
sent to other uses.

Then I can enter the results in a spreadsheet and sort them for best match.
Usually I can find five or six groups in a hundred that match to within
5-10 Hz. The rest vary, but I can usually get quite a few sets matched to within
50 Hz.

Then a day later, I do the same thing. But this time I will let each lot of
4-6 that matched, age for 1/2 hour or so. Measurements are taken and entered
into the spreadsheet as before. Sometimes a comparison of the two methods
reveals that the sets no longer match. But I can still get about the same number of
sets with a good batch; only the results will be a bit different.

A good SSB Cohn filter can be made with crystals that match to within 50 Hz or so.
However, the best results are from sets that match close; the closer the better. There
is a list in the files section of some 20.480 MHz crystals that I bought from
a surplus house and matched. They turned out pretty good. I have also had good luck
with some 11.092 MHz and 12.480 MHz ones found the same way. I have not been so lucky with
10 MHz HC49S crystals -- but they produced some good sets as well.

It is easier to match lower frequencies than higher ones.

I think there are 2 basic criteria: 1. Get good crystals from known good
manufacturers. 2. Age the crystals for a bit as they are measured.
(yeah; I know. It is a pain of sorts, but the results are better).
And, of course, always use a good oscillator, and counter, and DVM.
and capacitor meter to make measurements. It pays.

Now, building filters is another matter...

john
AD5YE


 

John. AD5UE. makes some good points.

1.? Crystals do age.? Ever looked at a crystal blank?? They
are frosted, like frosted window glass.? Think of a
mountain range.? That is what the surface resembles at
extreme magnification.

OK.? When a crystal is in operation, say HC-49U in shear mode,
the surface oscillates back and forth like a severe earthquake.
Only at several 100's or 1,000's of G's.? Where G=9.8m/sec^2.
The crystal surfaces flakes a bit and the frequency changes.
Generates dust inside.? Changes the resonant frequency for
your next measurement.? Only takes a few molecules of thickness
to shift more than a 100Hz.? And in a group, not all the
crystals will shift the same amount when operated at the same
amplitude.

A 50MHz crystal does about 5,000 G's at the surface.? See
page 10 of 'The Quartz Crystal Unit' by Virgil E. Bottom, PhD.

Aging while in storage I would think is due to stresses during
the heating and cooling process and causing some mountains
to break and fall off.? If severe enough temp change, it is
even possible for the crystal to fracture and quit working.

It would be interesting, but very time consuming, to go through
100 crystals measuring everything.? Put them in the fridge
for a week.?? In a plastic sealed bag.? I don't recommend
the freezer for this.

Then put them on top of a computer that runs 24/7 for another
week.? Or other warm surface that is not going to damage
anything.

Now repeat your measurements for all the crystals and plot.

2.? Matching crystals in a batch.? That is the most important
idea of all.? Here is one technical reason for using a batch.

I did this for 3 years in 1961-1964 for Dr Virgil E. Bottom at
McMurry College.? For an AT cut, the angle with respect to
the Z-axis is 35 deg 15 min.? The only way to measure this
is with x-ray diffraction.? I can tell you it is
a great deal of work to get within an angle differential of
1 min of 1 degree.? Here is an example of what the pattern
looks like when you develop the film.? I used a dentist
x-ray machine and black and white squares of film to do this.



In a factory, think about a worker that takes cultured
quartz (man made) out and starts cutting it.? They have
to orient the module with an x-ray machine.? My guess it
they do it without film now.



I can tell you that the characteristics of the material changes
significantly with margins of 2' of angular error.

So, John's suggestion of getting all your crystals at one time in
one batch and in large numbers is a good idea.? I never buy
in lots of less than 50, or at a minimum 30.? This is because all
the crystals come from the same large manufactured module
and all have the exact same angle of orientation, even if it is
off a bit.


Here is a lot of 12.00MHz similar to what I have on order:



Which I'm looking at using for 20m.

You learn to do this after years of experiments and some of
them being failures and wondering what was going on.

chuck, k7qo

On 11/26/2017 12:19 AM, John Backo via Groups.Io wrote:
The way I do it is thus:

Crystals age. If you measure them and then repeat the procedure
24 hrs. later, the results will be different.

First, use good quality crystals, usually of a name brand like
Fox, KDS, or Crystek. If one orders a batch, they are almost always
from the same manufacture lot, and will match fairly well.
Different lots may not match together very well. The manufacturers
pack them in bags of 500 or so, sometimes bags of 100. It is a
good idea to order at least a lot this size.

Lately, surplus "old new lots" are a better deal than new ones.
if you can find them. Sometimes you will get a lot with wildly disparate
results. If that happens, start over. Also, figure on at least a few bad ones
in even good lots. Throw them away.

I use a G3UUR muppet board oscillator featured a while back
on this list. Actually, I have 5 or 6 different test oscillators; that one
seems to work the best. I first mark all the crystals with a black marker,
numbering them consecutively. Then I measure them and record the results.
including the "output" of each crystal in mv. Capacitor measurements
are averaged for the lot and that figure is used. In building a filter, almost all
of the material criteria lies in closely matching frequency. The other things matter,
but not a whole lot. Both the series and parallel resonance should match
fairly well. But good results can be had with a "straight" measurement and
a "pulled" measurement with a capacitor. Usually the crystals that match
with one will be fairly close with the other. Sometimes they will not and those are
sent to other uses.

Then I can enter the results in a spreadsheet and sort them for best match.
Usually I can find five or six groups in a hundred that match to within
5-10 Hz. The rest vary, but I can usually get quite a few sets matched to within
50 Hz.

Then a day later, I do the same thing. But this time I will let each lot of
4-6 that matched, age for 1/2 hour or so. Measurements are taken and entered
into the spreadsheet as before. Sometimes a comparison of the two methods
reveals that the sets no longer match. But I can still get about the same number of
sets with a good batch; only the results will be a bit different.

A good SSB Cohn filter can be made with crystals that match to within 50 Hz or so.
However, the best results are from sets that match close; the closer the better. There
is a list in the files section of some 20.480 MHz crystals that I bought from
a surplus house and matched. They turned out pretty good. I have also had good luck
with some 11.092 MHz and 12.480 MHz ones found the same way. I have not been so lucky with
10 MHz HC49S crystals -- but they produced some good sets as well.

It is easier to match lower frequencies than higher ones.

I think there are 2 basic criteria: 1. Get good crystals from known good
manufacturers. 2. Age the crystals for a bit as they are measured.
(yeah; I know. It is a pain of sorts, but the results are better).
And, of course, always use a good oscillator, and counter, and DVM.
and capacitor meter to make measurements. It pays.

Now, building filters is another matter...

john
AD5YE