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QCX-40 Working...Sort of...
Chuck Carpenter
Finished the assembly and started the tuning and adjustments.
Connect power -- No Smoke! Adjusted contrast -- OK Started at step 3.71 Did the "Select Band" step, OK Pressed "Left Button", OK Pressed "Long Press" and NADA... Tried a few things like touching up solder joints and checking parts, no change. I'd plugged in a straight key with mono plug. Was trying some things and noticed the DL was getting warm. (Output BS170s barely warm) Pulled the key plug and keyed with the switch -- OK. Plugged in Paddle; both levers straight key. Checked the manual -- Straight is default mode! Plugged in a straight key with a stereo plug; OK. Not being able to adjust or change anything except frequency, here's the condition of the functions. o Power off then on, comes up 7020. Easily adjusted/tuned to other frequencies o Measured the output power - 3.5 W, looks "clean" with the small Hantek 2C42 O'scope. o Rx sounds good: To my ear, noise level and sensitivity sound about the same as my FT-847 o Side tone is pleasant, a clean sine wave. o Right button seems to do what its supposed to, a/b menus etc. o Morse is decoded accurately both TX and RX, didn't like it when tuned to a pile-up though... ;-) At this point, I could use the rig quite nicely to make QS. But missing the benefit of all the other features and functions, of course. Some serious trouble shooting in order to see what I did wrong with the left button circuits. If that's where the problem is anyway. Here's some results from the RBN at 3.5 W output. K2DB W5USJ 7055.1 CW CQ 10dB 14wpm 0939z 31 Oct KM3T W5USJ 7055.0 CW CQ 4dB 14wpm 0938z 31 Oct KM3T-2 W5USJ 7055.0 CW CQ 4dB 13wpm 0938z 31 Oct K1TTT W5USJ 7055.0 CW CQ 2dB 14wpm 0938z 31 Oct KO7SS W5USJ 7055.0 CW CQ 14dB 14wpm 0938z 31 Oct VE6WZ W5USJ 7055.2 CW CQ 17dB 14wpm 0938z 31 Oct W8WWV W5USJ 7057.0 CW CQ 20dB 13wpm 0937z 31 Oct KO7SS W5USJ 7057.0 CW CQ 18dB 13wpm 0937z 31 Oct VE6WZ W5USJ 7057.2 CW CQ 18dB 13wpm 0937z 31 Oct Fun Stuff... Chuck, W5USJ (ex K2OFN) ARCI 5422, SKCC 19956 EM22cv, Rains Co., Texas |
Re: QRPGuys DSB Digital Transceiver
Hi Todd
Of course, your wasted-power argument applies even more to AM thanYes... true! But the topic was DSB not AM or a comparison of every other possible mode and how efficient it is and various other advantages and disadvantages... Yes AM is inefficient and takes too much bandwidth. The advantage of AM is that non-technical non-ham people can tune it easily, hence the suitability for broadcast applications, whereas with SSB we amateurs have to tune accurately to avoid making our QSO correspondent sound like Donald Duck. But at least, an AM station can work another AM station! I think DSB is alone (as far as I can think of) in being the only mode where you can't work another station using the same mode! Therefore it isn't just inefficient and interfering, but also inconsistent [if widely adopted]. Too many unpleasant negative "in"'s hi hi. Steve WB6TNL... additional to what Allison said... if the two DSB stations are perfectly aligned then cancellation will occur; if they are a few Hz off, then what this will mean is, each FT8 tone will be ghosted those few Hz away, at the same amplitude, by its equal and opposite counterpart from the unwanted sideband. Faced with TWO tones to decode this will seriously confuse the FT8 decoder. You might be able to get away with it if the difference is small (a Hz, for example) but then that will probably mess things up due to partial cancellation; and if the difference is more than a few Hz then the FT8 decoder would detect and decode two equal tones where it is only expecting one. Result: no decode, or at the very least, greatly reduced probability of decode. 73 Hans G0UPL |
Re: QRPGuys DSB Digital Transceiver
Hans,
A very nice, well thought out description of DSB, especially relating to FT8 or similar modes. I have never used DSB for any "on the air" experience, but assumed the appeal is strictly for the circuit simplicity rather than the poor efficiency (wasted power). In my younger days, I worked at several AM broadcast stations from 1KW up to a 50 KW station. It was always astounding to me taking those hourly transmitter readings just how much input power was being used (and wasted) generating the RF output power. Granted, AM is worse by pumping power into the unused carrier, but one sideband is also unused power like DSB. One day we started getting calls how the station was off the air. On the air monitors were blaring and I could hear the station fine on my car radio. The PA tube plate current meters were wiggling fine. Finally, one caller said, "It's funny - I can hear you on my kitchen radio but not the radio in my living room." Checking that clue, sure enough, one of the push- pull final modulation tubes blew its filaments. Just depended how the AM detector diode in the receiver was phased whether you heard us or not. We lost half our power (many KWs) and half the town didn't even know it. This was mid-1960s, just as SSB was becoming popular on the ham bands, which many of us weren't all that crazy about that "duck talk." But suddenly to me, SSB made a whole lot of sense from a power standpoint. Lesson well learned. The DSB offerings are a simple and inexpensive way to get on the air with FT8 to try it out. But, be aware of the <50% efficiency and wasted power as Hans so well described. Especially at QRP levels. 72, Paul NA5N PS - Today's AM broadcast stations use banks of MOSFET PAs in parallel to generate their output power ... and using class F to achieve 90% PA efficiencies vs. 50% with class A for significant power savings. |
Re: QRPGuys DSB Digital Transceiver
ajparent1/kb1gmx
The short version is two DSB with non SSB RX is, works very poorly.
Reason is the two opposing sidebands are sent and are also received. The result is they combine and partially cancel each other in the receiver and the result is mostly gibberish (upside down sideband and the right side up one as well). EMRFD had the explanation as part of how much alternate sideband suppression is required. If the RX is a SSB in that the opposing sideband is not received, it will work. However the occupants in the other sidebands space will still be QRMed. If the TX is SSB the RX can be DSB (simple DC-RX). Allison -- Please reply on the group, no private emails we as a group get to share info that way. |
Re: QRPGuys DSB Digital Transceiver
If only someone would code up a version of WSJT to do just this.
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Mike K6ESS -----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of vbifyz Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 12:07 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [qrp-tech] QRPGuys DSB Digital Transceiver FT8 is a constant amplitude variable phase modulation. It can be generated without any filters using Si5351 or other programmable synthesizer chips, and amplified using efficient class C PAs. A computer (which can control the synthesizer) is required to work FT8 anyway. 73, Mike AF7KR |
Re: QRPGuys DSB Digital Transceiver
vbifyz
FT8 is a constant amplitude variable phase modulation. It can be generated without any filters using Si5351 or other programmable synthesizer chips, and amplified using efficient class C PAs. A computer (which can control the synthesizer) is required to work FT8 anyway.
73, Mike AF7KR |
Re: QRPGuys DSB Digital Transceiver
Thank you Hans and Todd for so clearly expressing the concerns I have about
using DSB. I'll confess to having built a DSB transmitter that I have stared at, and never quite been reckless enough to power on. Also Todd, I'm Australian and your User Name gives me trouble. -- MC |
Re: QRPGuys DSB Digital Transceiver
Hans,
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Your anti-vax anti-social analogy is quite apt. I don't understand the allure of DSB (or the superstition against vaccines, for that matter). If one is going to suppress the carrier, why not suppress the superfluous sideband as well? As you point out, it's not that hard, but I suppose it's the crystal filters that seem daunting to some, and the phasing method of generating SSB is near rocket science to the uninitiated. OTOH, your anti-social critique of DSB-SC also applies to the traditional AM mode. It's not used much anymore--only a small number of boat-anchor fans, and even they probably use SSB a lot more than AM. So when they're hogging 6+ kHz of bandwidth it's not a big deal (except, perhaps, during a contest) because most everyone else is on SSB. Of course, your wasted-power argument applies even more to AM than suppressed-carrier DSB. But unless you're battery dependent, that doesn't matter that much. A nice old boat anchor pumping wasted watts into the atmosphere at least helps keep the shack warm on a cold winter night. 73, Todd K7TFC On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 12:17 AM Hans Summers <hans.summers@...> wrote:
Hi all |
Re: QRPGuys DSB Digital Transceiver
Hi all
In my opinion... I don't care about the boring legal aspects... purely technical: 1) DSB is something of an abomination in that it is difficult or impossible for two DSB stations to work each other. It's the only mode I can think of, where you cannot QSO with someone else using the mode. The other side needs to be using SSB. On FT8, if they were a few Hz apart it would probably not decode, as far as I can see. You could offset the two stations by more than the 50Hz FT8 bandwidth, then both sets of transmissions would appear twice, to the other side. But that would get very confusing, and hardly be practical... particularly considering the transceiver is not frequency agile, it is crystal controlled, without an adjustment. Even if an offset could be arranged between two DSB stations the next DSB station worked would have to go through the hole rigmarole again. So DSB relies on the fact that only a small proportion of operators will be using it. Everyone else will use SSB. In that regard it is like an anti-vaccinationist. You don't vaccinate your child because you want to avoid the tiny risk of potentially very serious side effects. But this only works if most other people DO vaccinate their children, so that yours is unlikely to come into contact with a disease bearer. But if a significant proportion of people don't vaccinate their kids then preventable diseases return and infant mortality starts to go back to pre-vaccination levels. So NOT vaccinating your kid could be viewed as a rather antisocial action. By this somewhat tenuous analogy, so could operating DSB... 2) Inefficiency... we consider that the output power, say 2W, is divided between a wanted Upper Sideband and an unwanted Lower Sideband. So 50% of the RF output power is wasted. In fact in one view, it is worse than this because a larger proportion of the available DC *input* power is wasted too. The fact that it is DSB (two tones), means you must use a Linear. In this case, Class-A. If FT8 was modulated as SSB then it would be a single tone and a linear would not be needed; the power amplifier could be Class C/D/E etc and that would offer higher efficiency. This is the reason that a triplet of BS170s are here producing around HALF the power of an equivalent triplet of paralleled BS170s in a CW transceiver, operating at similar supply voltage and current. 3) Receiver SNR degradation... the fact you are receiving BOTH sidebands gives a 3dB penalty on the Signal to Noise Ratio, even if there are NO other interfering stations on the unwanted sideband, only noise. 4) Interference... you are interfering with anyone using the unwanted sideband. That 3kHz of band below the FT8 is therefore unusable to other stations. Yes a single DSB is a 50Hz slice in that band. Harmless? Maybe, if that band segment is also normally used for narrow band modes. But a few watts of carrier in the middle of an SSB QSO would not be so much fun... and even a CW QSO will typically be using a wider bandwidth than 50Hz so the potential for interference is greater. Also bear in mind that the FS8Call band is 4kHz above FT8. So anyone operating DSB on FS8Call is likely to be directly stepping on FT8 traffic. I gave this a lot of thought. Overall I concluded, in my personal opinion, I just don't think there's much of an excuse for using DSB in 2019. In 1960, maybe. But in 2019... it just isn't that much harder to make a nice single sideband signal. Just my view. 73 Hans G0UPL |
Re: QRPGuys DSB Digital Transceiver
ajparent1/kb1gmx
Tom,
It takes 4 crystal at a counter price of about 50 cents and 4 capacitors at pennies to make such a filter then you have whats called a SSB radio. It was done by K1SWL (PSK-80). It was a pretty simple transceiver for the PSK31 watering hole. Of course you can use one such filter and a second mixer to convert that frequency to any desired via superhet conversion which has been know for about 80 years maybe. Then we are talking about standard SSB radio like the PSK31 series for 40/20 and 10M or a radio just like the BITX40. Another technique is the nearly as old phasing technique to cancel the opposing sideband and that is all done mostly at audio so its relatively easy. it can also be done in software. Pick most of the SDR radios and a few others for that. The FT8 is legal if generated from a SSB radio. Whats questionable is that DSB has the other generated sideband so if the actual desired signal falls at 7045(or where ever) the other is roughly 2khz away at 7043. That means your transmitting on two frequencies at the very same time. I'd think the CW op at 7043 might not enjoy that. But it may be a case of a deserted mode and band allows.... Allison -- Please reply on the group, no private emails we as a group get to share info that way. |
Re: QRPGuys DSB Digital Transceiver
I'm probably showing my naivety and lack of technical knowledge, but I have been wondering why all the discussion has been focused upon the legal aspects of whether this combination of emission (DSB) and mode (FT8) is allowable, rather than any technical discussion about filtering out the unwanted sideband prior to transmission.
I imagine that such a filter by it's very nature would have to be very selective, stripping off the unwanted sideband while leaving the other untouched. The cost of such a filter may be prohibitive. I would suppose that the best place for such a filter to be inserted would be between the mixer and the final PA stage, so that only lower strength signals need be filtered and removed. Perhaps a set of filter modules could be designed such that the individual band modules would plug into a filter and then the stacked filter/band module would plug into the PCB headers. I'm sure there are cost and technical difficulties I am overlooking in my simplistic approach, but again there has been very little discussion in regards to the technical rather than the legal issues here. 73 - Tom N8TPN |
Re: Wilderness NC40A sked?
John AE5X
Michael, the antenna is up and the NC40a is working FB - I'm planning on using it a bit in the upcoming CQWW contest. Let me know when a sked would work for you - any evening after 2330Z works for me but I think 0100-0200Z or later would work better for our path.
73, John AE5X |
Re: powering an SWR meter from transceiver output
I ran some simulation of the power recovery circuit in ltspice. With the assumption, that the controller driving the LED baragraph draws 1.2mA at 2.4V, the following peak currents of the power recovery diodes were simulated, and the following harmonic distortion values were simulated as well. Only 3rd harmonic levels below the carrier are shown as they are most pronounced. Long story short, the worst harmonic simulation was 3rd harmonic at -34dB below the carrier. I would say this is a pretty harmless value for a circuit, that is inserted between the transceiver and antenna only during antenna adjustment.
1.2mA at 2.4V is a realistic value if all the AtTiny13A power saving features are used and LED current is limited to 1mA. At 1W input power: At SWR 1:1, the diode peak current is 7.4mA, which is 3.7% of 200mA input peak current, and 3rd harmonic introduced by the power recovery circuit is -36dB below the carrier. When antenna open, the diode peak current is 8,3mA, which is 6.1% of 135mA input peak current, and 3rd harmonic introduced by the power recovery circuit is -34dB below the carrier. This is the worst distortion value. When antenna shorted, the diode peak current is 7mA, which is 2.9% of 240mA input peak current, and 3rd harmonic introduced by the power recovery circuit is -39dB below the carrier. At 10W input power: At SWR 1:1, the diode peak current is 11.5mA, which is 1.8% of 636mA input peak current, and 3rd harmonic introduced by the power recovery circuit is -36dB below the carrier. When antenna open, the diode peak current is 13mA, which is 3% of 427mA input peak current, and 3rd harmonic introduced by the power recovery circuit is -35dB below the carrier. When antenna shorted, the diode peak current is 11mA, which is 1.4% of 764mA input peak current, and 3rd harmonic introduced by the power recovery circuit is -36dB below the carrier. |
Dead (or seriously-ill) FeelTech FY3200S
Maybe some of you have had this same problem. After about a year of non use, I fired up my Feeltech FY3200S and was greeted with a lit-up but otherwise blank LCD, and a constant howl from the on-board annunciator. No pushing of buttons or turning of knob did anything. BTW, I've already removed the leaky power supply it came with and I'm using an external one for the +5 and +/-12V power. As far as I can remember, it was working fine after I chucked the bad supply (to be clear, it was working fine on the factory-installed supply, but I was disturbed by reports of AC on the BNC grounds).
I've checked and triple-checked the supply voltages, and removed the main board from the case for close examination. Even under magnification, all looks okay. The thing's too cheap to spend much more time on, but has anyone on the group had a similar experience? Any solutions? 73, Todd K7TFC |
Re: QRPGuys DSB Digital Transceiver
ajparent1/kb1gmx
I largely disagree.
First how your transmit digi and what mode is partially due to band plans. If your transmitting a DSB signal in the CW segment of 40M thats not cool. do it higher in the band then its legal for sure. Of course if the CW ops start complaining that could change. DSB is not a narrow band signal. Side effect of this is 6 and 2M CW segment that by FCC rule is A1A only in the USA has people running digimode beacons, in the USA. Is that ok? No. Allison -- Please reply on the group, no private emails, we as a group get to share info that way. |
Re: QRPGuys DSB Digital Transceiver
That's an interesting take on the issue, but I'm not sure I agree.
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As far as I know there's no FCC (for USA hams, anyway) rule against transmitting digimodes in DSB (or AM, FM, or ISB). It's not common, but I doubt it's "illegal." Short of its collective lobbying and WARC activities, the IARU has only an advisory role in anything it does (when it comes to the regulations of individual countries), so until and unless the IARU encourages individual countries to adopt specific emission rules, it doesn't seem to be an issue. Until I discovered specific prohibitions, I'd transmit digimodes in DSB without worrying -- as long as I wasn't aiming for intentional interference, and as long as I was using QRPish power levels. I think unattended digimode (FTx) bots and unattended WSPR operation are much more problematic, as are unattended PACTOR/Winlink stations in general. Just my opinion. Regards, --Kirk, NT0Z? Rochester, MN My book, "Stealth Amateur Radio," is now available from www.stealthamateur.com and on the Amazon Kindle (soon) On Saturday, October 26, 2019, 7:03:06 PM CDT, Christos SV1EIA via Groups.Io <sv1eia@...> wrote:
Using DSB modulation to Tx a FT8 signal means that you will end up transmitting a second FT8 signal a few KHz away from your intended one. From what I understand, this will have legal issues also with FCC, it will not be characterized as a 'spurious' but it will certainly be characterized as a 'Out of Band' (OoB) whereas a different method of what is legal or not applies than in the case of spurious, but will definitively be IMHO falling into the non-legal. Of course based on IARU's determination of what signals should be used in the digital segments, it is obvious that this is not allowed as all digimodes are mainly narrowband. 73, Christos SV1EIA |
Re: QRPGuys DSB Digital Transceiver
Using DSB modulation to Tx a FT8 signal means that you will end up transmitting a second FT8 signal a few KHz away from your intended one.
From what I understand, this will have legal issues also with FCC, it will not be characterized as a 'spurious' but it will certainly be characterized as a 'Out of Band' (OoB) whereas a different method of what is legal or not applies than in the case of spurious, but will definitively be IMHO falling into the non-legal. Of course based on IARU's determination of what signals should be used in the digital segments, it is obvious that this is not allowed as all digimodes are mainly narrowband. 73, Christos SV1EIA |
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