Try just buying a Septone product called "Rust Converter", it doesn't say on the bottle what concentration it is, however any product sold as rust converter will generally be phosphoric acid, it warns on this Septone brand I have not to apply it to any anadoised aluminium or painted surfaces, so I would assume it has a fairly high acidic concentration.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 13/10/2021 8:35:01 AM
Subject: Re: [o14] Slaters Lyn
I'm not sure what initial concentration of phosphoric acid (PA) you are starting with, Brian.
I bought some a while back (in NZ) from a chemical supplier (I think) at the strongest
possible solution, namely 85%, at which level it is a fairly dense and syrupy liquid. I think it is
also commercially available and possibly cheaper at 70%, and also in various proprietary
products at lower concentrations which are designed to be used without further dilution.
I've just done a bit of further research, which suggests to me that the solution for rust
conversion (rather than removal) is in the 20-30% ball park. That is also probably about right
for soldering flux, although I don't think the exact concentration is crucial. I'd therefore agree
with your recommendation to add two parts of water to one of PA, provided that the starting
point is 70% or 85%
PA at low concentrations is not harmful to humans - indeed it is a constituent of many drinks
(especially Coca Cola) and some processed foods, in "food safe" form, which means free of
impurities. The significance here is that it is quite safe to clean drinking vessels with PA
followed by simple rinsing.
The 85% is highly corrosive to skin and membranes. If diluting this or the 70% variety, the
acid should always be added to water (as with sulphuric and other "strong" acids), and even
then some eye protection is desirable imo.
Getting back to the original topic (connecting rods), the effect of PA if properly used is to
convert some of the surface iron or iron oxide to iron phosphate, which has a grey patina.
This is not bright like s/s, but does look metallic, and it serves to protect the underlying metal
from re-rusting. I haven't actually done this, but I think it might be the way to go.
Bruce Cropper
On 11 Oct 2021 at 11:24, Brian wrote:
>
> Paul, I know Bunning's sell it here in Oz, but basically you need to get yourself
> some rust converter which is phosphoric acid wash the steel bits in it and then
> wash in the white spirit and dry in a oven before coating.
> Another advantage of buying some phosphoric acid is that you can mix it at a 2:1
> ratio 2 parts water and 1 part acid and you have the perfect flux for soldering.
> ------ Original Message ------
> Sent: 11/10/2021 9:06:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [o14] Slaters Lyn
>
>???? Here is the rather nice 14mm gauge axle?
>
>
>
> Virus-free.
>
>
>
??
|
|
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
|
|
I'm not sure what initial concentration of phosphoric acid (PA) you are starting with, Brian.
I bought some a while back (in NZ) from a chemical supplier (I think) at the strongest
possible solution, namely 85%, at which level it is a fairly dense and syrupy liquid. I think it is
also commercially available and possibly cheaper at 70%, and also in various proprietary
products at lower concentrations which are designed to be used without further dilution.
I've just done a bit of further research, which suggests to me that the solution for rust
conversion (rather than removal) is in the 20-30% ball park. That is also probably about right
for soldering flux, although I don't think the exact concentration is crucial. I'd therefore agree
with your recommendation to add two parts of water to one of PA, provided that the starting
point is 70% or 85%
PA at low concentrations is not harmful to humans - indeed it is a constituent of many drinks
(especially Coca Cola) and some processed foods, in "food safe" form, which means free of
impurities. The significance here is that it is quite safe to clean drinking vessels with PA
followed by simple rinsing.
The 85% is highly corrosive to skin and membranes. If diluting this or the 70% variety, the
acid should always be added to water (as with sulphuric and other "strong" acids), and even
then some eye protection is desirable imo.
Getting back to the original topic (connecting rods), the effect of PA if properly used is to
convert some of the surface iron or iron oxide to iron phosphate, which has a grey patina.
This is not bright like s/s, but does look metallic, and it serves to protect the underlying metal
from re-rusting. I haven't actually done this, but I think it might be the way to go.
Bruce Cropper
On 11 Oct 2021 at 11:24, Brian wrote:
>
> Paul, I know Bunning's sell it here in Oz, but basically you need to get yourself
> some rust converter which is phosphoric acid wash the steel bits in it and then
> wash in the white spirit and dry in a oven before coating.
> Another advantage of buying some phosphoric acid is that you can mix it at a 2:1
> ratio 2 parts water and 1 part acid and you have the perfect flux for soldering.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Paul Holmes" <heatonwood@...>
> Sent: 11/10/2021 9:06:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [o14] Slaters Lyn
>
>???? Here is the rather nice 14mm gauge axle?
>
>
>
> Virus-free. www.avg.com
>
>
>
??
|
Re: Narrow Gauge & Industrial Railway Modelling REVIEW
REVIEW issue 128 is at the printers for distribution at the end of this month. The contents are:
- Weathering Heights - An industrial steam weathering masterclass by Tim Shackleton
- Andrew Barclay – Glyder - A remarkable Penryhn Quarry survivor described by Paul Jarman
- Industrial Echos – The Shipyard - Arnoud Bongaards explains his novel approach to layout design using SketchUp
- Developing Nant Gwynant – Part 1 - Richard Kynaston starts a high-tech P4 Narrow Gauge journey
- Mole – A Unique 0-4-0 Tank Locomotive - Stuart L Baker draws and describes an elusive 1ft 11.5ins gauge locomotive
- Corris Railway Wagons - Peter Kazer models 2ft 3ins gauge Corris wagons in their last days in 1:32 scale
- D?rentruper Sand- und Thonwerke - A remarkable 60cm gauge German electric system by David W Ronald & Volker Grumpe
- Little Sally - Paul Jarman describes a little known 2ft 6ins gauge Hawthorn Leslie 0-4-0ST
And the usual editorial, news and product reviews. 
|
Paul, I know Bunning's sell it here in Oz, but basically you need to get yourself some rust converter which is phosphoric acid wash the steel bits in it and then wash in the white spirit and dry in a oven before coating. Another advantage of buying some phosphoric acid is that you can mix it at a 2:1 ratio 2 parts water and 1 part acid and you have the perfect flux for soldering.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 11/10/2021 9:06:33 PM
Subject: Re: [o14] Slaters Lyn
Here is the rather nice 14mm gauge axle?
|
Here is the rather nice 14mm gauge axle? 
|
The plot thickens. The parts are all in the kit in mild steel, so no chance of using stainless. I’ve found Slaters axles and wheels rusting after the model has been built. I can’t lacquer them for obvious reasons. I tend to physically clean the rust off then oil axles and use electrolube on the wheel treads. Any better answers? ?
|
Like I said earlier Frank, it is best to put it into a drying oven, ie: a old wall oven or stove oven, with a 60 watt light bulb mounted inside, you need to wait about 1 hour for the oven to gain enough heat, then you wash the parts and place them straight into the oven to dry and with little to no moisture in the oven the parts cannot get any moisture on the surface before you spray them.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 11/10/2021 8:35:00 PM
Subject: Re: [o14] Slaters Lyn
Naphtha, Lighter fuel, Colemans stove fuel is Hydrocarbon based? around C6 chains. White spirit based about C11 chains. From a practical point white spirit evaporates slower. ? For this you are using it to remove potentially acid grease from your skin to stop rusting. However stripping steel clean leaves it open to atmospheric pollution and in a damp atmosphere (such as North Wales) you might get rusting. Solution is to use stainless steel, more difficult to machine, weaker than normal steels, and just about impossible to solder. ? Have fun ? Frank
|
Naphtha, Lighter fuel, Colemans stove fuel is Hydrocarbon based? around C6 chains. White spirit based about C11 chains. From a practical point white spirit evaporates slower. ? For this you are using it to remove potentially acid grease from your skin to stop rusting. However stripping steel clean leaves it open to atmospheric pollution and in a damp atmosphere (such as North Wales) you might get rusting. Solution is to use stainless steel, more difficult to machine, weaker than normal steels, and just about impossible to solder. ? Have fun ? Frank
|
Diggers Shellite is a flammable hydrocarbon solvent used primarily as lighter fuel. (Also known as Recosol R55). It is commonly used as a lighter fuel, for metal cleaning or cleaning surfaces prior to painting and as fuel for Shellite stoves, torches and lanterns.
Regards
Rod Hutchinson
Moorolbark, Australia
Is it really white spirit?? That’s much the same as turps substitute, used as a paint thinners and brush cleaner. I’ve never heard of it as a degreaser. Lighter fluid is quite different ?
Paul?
|
Yes in some countries I believe they call it white spirit or white oil.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 11/10/2021 8:19:52 PM
Subject: Re: [o14] Slaters Lyn
Is it really white spirit? ?That’s much the same as turps substitute, used as a paint thinners and brush cleaner. I’ve never heard of it as a degreaser. Lighter fluid is quite different ?
Paul?
|
I've used white spirit to degrease and remove oil etc. from parts
of my lathe during repair/restoration. Once dry they were then
greased or oiled as appropriate. Can't quite remember who
suggested to me that it would work but on the few parts I've had
to do (buying unimat parts second hand some need more work than
others) it's worked well.
Camping stoves though would be methylated spirits (the purple
stuff in the UK) not white spirit,
Mark
On 11/10/2021 11:19, Paul Holmes wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Is it really white spirit? ?That’s much the same as turps
substitute, used as a paint thinners and brush cleaner. I’ve
never heard of it as a degreaser. Lighter fluid is quite
different ?
Paul?
|
Is it really white spirit? ?That’s much the same as turps substitute, used as a paint thinners and brush cleaner. I’ve never heard of it as a degreaser. Lighter fluid is quite different ?
Paul?
|
Hi Brian,
Shellite is the same as White Spirit, it's used as a dry cleaning
fluid, also I think the Ronson cigarette lighter is the same and
I'm 99% sure it's used in camping stoves.
The name Shellite comes from the brand name for White Spirit sold
by SHELL.
Cheers,
Frank Savery,
Owner, Operator, Chief Cook & Bottle Washer,
King Island Tramway, Tasmania
I used to be indecisive, but, now I'm not so sure !
Procrastination is definitely my forte
Growing old is compulsory . . . growing up is optional
On 11/10/2021 7:25 pm, Brian wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Paul, Shellite is a clear liquid used more as a clean product
it leaves no residue when it evaporates.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 11/10/2021 6:16:14 PM
Subject: Re: [o14] Slaters Lyn
Brian
This warrants further investigation, thank you. ?Having never
heard of Shellite, i was concerned to find it was a British
high explosive used in armour piercing shells, then -?
from wikipedia -
Shellite?may refer to?:
- An Australian form of?
- , British
explosive filling for armour-piercing naval shells of the
1920s to 1930s
aha ?Is it the same as Azure naphtha? ?It certainly doesn't
exist under the sheltie name in the UK . Or is it just good
old Ronson lighter fuel? ?
Paul ?
?
|
Paul, Shellite is a clear liquid used more as a clean product it leaves no residue when it evaporates.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 11/10/2021 6:16:14 PM
Subject: Re: [o14] Slaters Lyn
Brian
This warrants further investigation, thank you. ?Having never heard of Shellite, i was concerned to find it was a British high explosive used in armour piercing shells, then -?
from wikipedia -
Shellite?may refer to?:
- An Australian form of?
- , British explosive filling for armour-piercing naval shells of the 1920s to 1930s
aha ?Is it the same as Azure naphtha? ?It certainly doesn't exist under the sheltie name in the UK . Or is it just good old Ronson lighter fuel? ?
Paul ?
?
|
Brian This warrants further investigation, thank you. ?Having never heard of Shellite, i was concerned to find it was a British high explosive used in armour piercing shells, then -? from wikipedia - Shellite?may refer to?:
- An Australian form of?
- , British explosive filling for armour-piercing naval shells of the 1920s to 1930s
aha ?Is it the same as Azure naphtha? ?It certainly doesn't exist under the sheltie name in the UK . Or is it just good old Ronson lighter fuel? ? Paul ?
?
|
Paul, You could try using Incralac which is a clear coating meant for polished brass or copper however it does work on any metal providing you do a good prep first, because the cranks and rods I believe on the L&B rods & cranks were polished steel. It is important as part of the prep after you either polish of generally clean the items to be coated that you then wash them in Shellite or white oil and allow to dry, it is best to then either as part of your drying process to place the items into a drying oven so you warm up the metal parts and while they're warm spray them with the Incralac, if you don't warm them up as is normal with any metal in the shade it develops a moisture in the surface of the metal and this moisture will cause the Incralac to get a fog in it, or basically turn it white, I would suggest to use the matte finish incralac as this would look better on a model.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 11/10/2021 5:11:13 PM
Subject: Re: [o14] Slaters Lyn
I had a look st the axles, wheels and cranks last night. I start to see why the kits are so expensive. There is some serious engineering here. The wheels are threaded and screw onto the axles. Hence the need to stipulate 14mm gauge. Then the cranks are neither etches to solder up with a twist nor lost wax castings. They are milled mild steel with a complex milled square slot and hole to fit the milled end of the axle and then secure with the customary Slater’s mini Allen key screw.?
This should make chassis construction easier. My main concern now is rust. I think that I will be assembling these bits on a separate surface to avoid any contamination with flux and probably wear cotton gloves.?
Paul?
|
I had a look st the axles, wheels and cranks last night. I start to see why the kits are so expensive. There is some serious engineering here. The wheels are threaded and screw onto the axles. Hence the need to stipulate 14mm gauge. Then the cranks are neither etches to solder up with a twist nor lost wax castings. They are milled mild steel with a complex milled square slot and hole to fit the milled end of the axle and then secure with the customary Slater’s mini Allen key screw.?
This should make chassis construction easier. My main concern now is rust. I think that I will be assembling these bits on a separate surface to avoid any contamination with flux and probably wear cotton gloves.?
Paul?
|
Re: Lionheart 7mm rtr L&B Locos announced
I am trying to sort something out for next Saturday but its getting complicated now because others are starting to stick their oar in.
|
Re: Lionheart 7mm rtr L&B Locos announced
Oh I don’t know Adrian, Lionheart’s appearance at Woody Bay for the L&B gala was only announced about 36 hours before the event. By that standard there’s plenty of time….
|
Re: Lionheart 7mm rtr L&B Locos announced
It is very frustrating that the late (in the context of planning for next week's exhibition) announcement of Lionheart's exciting news means it hasn't been possible to get them along to Burton.??? ? ? Adrian? ?
|
Paul Holmes
Paul Martin
Adrian Gray