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mike and the davester were at the TRW ham swap meet last sat,here is some gonzo reporting....
we were over at the old fun van and there were a lot of tubes ,too many tubes i thought old #'s too #227 #224 #171
but after i found a big stash of nixies and paid for them, mike and I were on the way to daves wonder car
there was a big fracas ,a fight , a loud argument! over tubes??hardly ever happens.
we were on the way back from the car, when we saw the men in blue , two units ,four guys
were arresting ....someone, now in hand cuffs and being placed in the back of a patrol car , and then there he was, the guy from the fun van, who was selling all of the tubes,
He was recovering his tubes, BIG ones , fat lovely xmitter tubes in the 600 watt range worth about $250 each times four!
caught red handed and in the act with the goods on him by Redondo PD, his guy was going for a ride and to night being in the pokey might bring on a new dimension.

Maybe I'm just getting older and more cantankerous, but I decided, maybe against my better judgement, to give Arduinos a try.

Well the nice thing about those is if you don't like the programming enviroment, you can develop in Bascom, C, or ASM on the same hardware. The Arduino is nothing but a carrier board for the AVR and some bootloader firmware on the MCU.

If you still want to learn some programming, and make an 'embedded app', save it for your NEXT project. With NO programming experience, you may want to go with the BASIC STAMP, and compare the literature versus the Arduino. Yes, its more expensive, and probably runs slower, but I suspect the learning curve is a bit easier [BASIC versus C].

IMO the Basic Stamp is both obscenely expensive and very slow. There is a free version of the Bascom BASIC compiler for the AVR series microcontrollers. It's nearly as easy as Stamp, it's *many* times faster, and a free compiler, $20 programming cable and $2 microcontrollers are a bargain compared to the expensive stamps.

From: mimewar@...

It's all subjective, there is no right or wrong ...
<snip>
-----
... a friend at Radio Shack ... a parallax PIC BASIC kit for
cheap, so I picked that up, and it's fun. At least I'm learning
something, and the LED is blinking just fine. It's a start.

Shane

Yep, there is no wrong answer, other than not doing anything at all.
Our responses, are just suggestions, depending on what you want.

If all you want is a nixie clock, but really don't care to learn about the electronics behind it, you can either buy a finished unit, or a kit. You really won't learn much from a kit, but you will learn what the business end of a soldering iron is ... Molten metal hurts.

If you want to learn a little digital theory, then something like Mike Harrison's circuit built from 4000 CMOS (similiar to 7400 TTL) is a great start:



That, and a copy of Don Lancaster's TTL (and CMOS) Cookbooks will get you going.

I only mentioned the BASIC Stamp (Parallax), as a start for those who have never programmed before. BASIC was intended as a starter language, but it grew legs, and people actually used it for writing applications. Its great for small 'quick-n-dirty' programs, but gets a tad unwieldy when that app starts to grow in size. A clock app (IMHO) falls in the 'quick-n-dirty' zone. Plus once you get comfortable with it, it might inspire you to move onto bigger and better things.

Quite a few people love that Arduino thing. I guess its more for people who want to get onto the programming part, but have less patience for making their own hardware.

I like hardware. For me, I prefer to build the hardware from scratch, based around a uC (almost exclusively AVR, currently). I usually pick the smallest device that will do the job, but that's just me. With many uCs (AVR, PIC, & a few more) the tools to get you going are pretty cheap. With the AVR its under $40, and with that TI part (recently discussed) under $5.

AND ...

if you really want to get into really old technology, why not design and build your nixie clock with all discrete components. No ICs. Try it with discrete transistors. If you really feel masochistic, use only vacuum tubes. That's on my list of things to do. Its been there for quite a few years. Its been done, but only by a handful of few really brave souls. Each has used their own unique circuits.

Just get off your a** and build something. If it smokes, that's just reason to build it again.

I can't believe I had to work late today and missed the end of this auction!!! Did someone here win item #320552926621, because I'd love to hear and see more about these tubes.

Mike

On 6/29/2010 8:12 PM, msilv3r wrote:

Now my question to you guys, on the PIC side of things.
-From my current understanding, I will have a byte by byte buffer.
This means I will have to do some type of compare with each character.
I'm not sure how to do this.

I've done serial communication with the 18F4520 in MCC18, but not with a 16F in C. I have programmed a 16F873 in assembly language to do serial I/O.

The serial port is simply a data register that contains the last byte received, and a status bit in the status register indicating that a data byte is available in the data register.

When the data register is read, then the status flag is automatically cleared until another byte is received. So you only have to test the status bit and read in the character to move data into your string array.


Here's a rough idea of the C code:

char the_char, string[80]; // storage for the string
char *p; // point to where the next char goes

p = string[0]; // point at first character's location
while (!timeout) { // prevent hanging on missing EOL
if (USART_status_bit) // reads the status register bit
the_char = *p++ = USART_data_reg; // get the character
[some timeout code]
if (the_char == '&#92;n') // detect end of line
break;
}

Don't assume that this will compile - it's rather off-the-cuff.

The timeout code can just increment a counter and trigger the timeout thing when the count hits some big value corresponding to more than a second of real time. Without a timeout, your code will hang forever if there's a communication error.

--
David Forbes, Tucson, AZ

Why not learn both?

Arduino is $20 shipped.

Amazing how get the blinking LED is so satifying, isn't it? :)
I still remember bragging to my friend ---
"Dude, I got the LED blinking now (, and for only $20)" Ha!


Michail

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "Nick" <nick@...> wrote:

I'm currently doing a controller for this project: and

May I hate you for having such a great test bench?
And for having it so neat and tidy?

:)

However, its so cheap to buy an Arduino board from HK, cheaper than making a board myself, so that I can just throw away the bootloader and do my own thing. Convenience/time and all that...

Nick

Agreed. When a platform is made to be really flexible and reusable, it's a pity not to extend its usage to other projects.

I'm on the PIC side of the electronics world and I would really love to have an equivalent to the Arduino. I have a good bunch of projects in the back burner (robotics, nixie clocks, etc.) just waiting for someone to pop out with the PICarduino...

Gaston

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., Bjorn Again <mimewar@...> wrote:
...

So What I gather from all this, is, it's a matter of taste or opinion. It's all subjective, there is no right or wrong, just what you like. OK, I see this Nixie pie, it looks great, smells great, I want to stick my finger in and get a taste before I decide to buy the whole pie. Can anyone seuggest a place (website preferably) to start learning a decent programming language. I know that Basic can be cumbersome, and is not the fastest thing around, but I am looking at Nixie projects (clocks, thermometers...) and simple infrared remote control projects.

If you want to do simple stuff which doesn't require complex high speed faffing around, then BASIC is fine. Most people are completely agnostic wrt. hardware and language - use whatever you find easiest. However, for a nixie clock, you most certainly don't need to use a uP unless you want fancy features (fading etc.).

The sorts of projects you are referring to are all easily doable with BASIC and a suitable processor - In the past I've used OshonSoft for BASIC - see - Cheap, simple, very good. As this looks like your first uP language, BASIC is a good place to start.

Others, of course (!!), will have different opinions!

Cheers

Nick

Interesting Nick. Thanks for the info. Marc Bury, thanks for the correction.

[edited by A.J. - please trim quoted material]
-----
From: mimewar@...

So What I gather from all this, is, it's a matter of taste or opinion. It's all subjective, there is no right or wrong, just what you like.
<snip>
-----

So I called a friend at Radio Shack, they had a parallax PIC BASIC kit for cheap, so I picked that up, and it's fun. At least I'm learning something, and the LED is blinking just fine.
It's a start.
Shane

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I've established a few things:

-The GPS I just purchased uses the NMEA 0183 data protocol (via RS232)
-I need a MAX232 to convert the RS232 logic levels to TTL levels
-I will be using the RX/TX pins on my PIC16F876
-The data I want is format: $GPZDA,hhmmss.ss,xx,xx,xxxx,xx,xx
-Each line ends with <CR><LF>
-I can request info from the GPS using: $ttllQ,sss,[CR][LF]
--It will then output the information once per second until another query is requested.

Source:


Now my question to you guys, on the PIC side of things.
-From my current understanding, I will have a byte by byte buffer. This means I will have to do some type of compare with each character. I'm not sure how to do this.

-I'm having trouble doing this in C. I've found in the PIC16F876 datasheet how to enable all the pins, set the baud rate etc. I'm still not sure how to initialize it and how the buffer works. Does a byte simply sit in the buffer until it is read, then a flag occurs and the next byte is written? That doesn't sound very logical to me. I guess what I'm really asking is how does RS232 communication work in a PIC? I see a lot of information on setup but not on implementation.

-There is an example serial.c in examples for the HI-TECH C compiler (used with MPLAB IDE). I'm not sure how to modify this to work with my PIC model, and since I can't answer the last question I'm even more lost when looking at the code.

-----
To: NEONIXIE-L@...
From: nick@...
--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., Joe Croft <joe@...> wrote:

I can't ay as I blame you in a lot of ways. ...

I've been using AVRs almost exclusively for 5 years or so - gave up on PICs completely, mainly bacause I know the GNU toolchain well and WinAVR is a great environment - I normally use the ATmega88/168/328P series and have done maybe 40 or 50 projects with them, almost always using C or C++ (there are bits of my code in the files section).

WinAVR with avr-libc is a really good combo and its very easy to live with...

On the hardware front, I've tended to "roll my own", specifically I made a bunch of dev ATmega boards for small projects which are full SBCs, e.g. / - I'm currently doing a controller for this project: and

However, its so cheap to buy an Arduino board from HK, cheaper than making a board myself, so that I can just throw away the bootloader and do my own thing. Convenience/time and all that...
-----

So What I gather from all this, is, it's a matter of taste or opinion. It's all subjective, there is no right or wrong, just what you like. OK, I see this Nixie pie, it looks great, smells great, I want to stick my finger in and get a taste before I decide to buy the whole pie. Can anyone seuggest a place (website preferably) to start learning a decent programming language. I know that Basic can be cumbersome, and is not the fastest thing around, but I am looking at Nixie projects (clocks, thermometers...) and simple infrared remote control projects.
Thank you for all the responses!
Shane

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--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., Joe Croft <joe@...> wrote:

I can't ay as I blame you in a lot of ways. ...

I've been using AVRs almost exclusively for 5 years or so - gave up on PICs completely, mainly bacause I know the GNU toolchain well and WinAVR is a great environment - I normally use the ATmega88/168/328P series and have done maybe 40 or 50 projects with them, almost always using C or C++ (there are bits of my code in the files section).

WinAVR with avr-libc is a really good combo and its very easy to live with...

On the hardware front, I've tended to "roll my own", specifically I made a bunch of dev ATmega boards for small projects which are full SBCs, e.g. / - I'm currently doing a controller for this project: and

However, its so cheap to buy an Arduino board from HK, cheaper than making a board myself, so that I can just throw away the bootloader and do my own thing. Convenience/time and all that...

Nick

Nick,

I can't ay as I blame you in a lot of ways. The AVR processor is a nice small
processor if you can get over the separate program and data memory space. As
for PDEs, I don't use the Arduino development system but instead use a make
file and provide my own main. I find that there are a lot of nice class
libraries for do this and that such as the 1-wire sensors, SPI etc. C++ is
definately different on the AVR than on say a Linux or Windows box. Mostly due
to the fact that you have such a small amount of RAM. This really does take
the OO purist thinking out of most.

As for hardware, Start with the Arduino then once you get the prototype done
and working, make your board. Sparkfun has a pretty descent PCB service for
inexpensive small quantity boards. If you need higher board quantities,
www.4pcb.com has pretty descent prices. I use them for my NixieNeon Clock
(www.nixieneon.com).

-joe

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., Bjorn Again <mimewar@...> wrote:

...If you have any interest in learning about microcontrollers/programming I highly recommend the Arduino. They have a lot of example code which could help you get started.

...

Maybe I'm just getting older and more cantankerous, but I decided, maybe against my better judgement, to give Arduinos a try.

Hmmm. On thge plus side, they are pretty cheap - I can buy a Duemilanove fully populated for much less than it would cost me just to have the board made up. However, this is where I start grumbling (again...)

The /RESET pin is not properly protected (it's the only I/O pin on an AVR without full ESD protection) and AVCC is not filtered - something that would cost just a few cents to do, thus limiting the ADC accuracy.

As I now generally operate in high EMI environments with big ESD events occurring maybe 1000 times a second, these simple mistakes mean mods to the "standard" boards.

Also, my main grumble is about the POOR quality of the coding in most PDEs - they are simply minimalist and most definitely not of production quality. In essence, the environment is a wrapper around avr-libc & gcc-avr, a boot loader and a somewhat dubious set of C++ class libraries which seem to be written by people with not a huge understanding of OO concepts.

Being a "ground-up" sort of guy, I'm fighting my inclination to re-write the PDEs and to re-do the PCBs to be rather more robust.

Bah!

Nick

--- In NEONIXIE-L@..., "msilv3r" <msilv3r@...> wrote:

That was it Nick. Hah. The reason for that was I never use define and assumed if it was wrong the error would be on that line. Guess not! Thanks a lot!

C and derivative language compilers operate in at least two passes over the source code - the first, a "pre-processor" pass, handles all the preprocessor commands aka "#" commands. e.g. "#include", "#if", "#define", etc. and produces an intermediary output file which the compiler-proper then turns into binary for the target host. The cute bit is that the actually target code generator (the "back end" of the actual compiler) is the only bit that is target-specific - this is how the GNU Toolchain (gcc etc.) can target so many hosts - the vast majority of it is written in standard X3.J11 ANSI C - only the code generator changes for the target (x86,AVR,PIC, etc.).

The preprocessor is actually reasonably powerful (though not a full macro processor) and clever tricks can be done with it. At its simplest, all that "#define" really does is associate a token with a parametrised string that you specify. The preprocessor simply replaced your tokens in the intermediary file, and then the compiler barfed when it tried to compile them. Its sometimes useful with problems like this to get the compiler to save the intermediary file (normally its automatically deleted after compilation) so that you can check what is actually being compiled.

The key here is that you can "#define" pretty much anything you want - it's after the token is expanded and during compilation that any errors normally show up.

I've designed and been responsible for exchange systems with 2+ million lines of C++ and was an observer for the ANSI C ctte, and believe me, understanding these languages and their subtleties is important!

Use and understanding of the pre-processor and its commands is absolutely fundamental to being able to use C/C++/C# or other derivatives reasonably - some time spent going over the language basics thoroughly will pay off big-time in the end - it'll probably only take you an hour or so.

Cheers

Nick

Is any of that helpful? Do I have something useful here? I have about 45 or so ICs, all kept in a case.

Oh yes, that box of logic might contain most of the ICs needed. See the BOM (bill of materials) [in .pdf format]:


Just for quick reference, the ICs you need-
(4) 74LS90
(3) 74LS92
(5) 7441/74141 (Russian K155ID1)
(1) 74LS00
(1) 74121
(1) 7417
(1) BA17085T/LM7805T (TO-220 5VDC regulator)

You have listed a couple of the needed parts already. Keep in mind also that the "LS" is just the "low power schottkey" series, and others such as 74xx and 74HCxx will work.

Shane, here is a great place to start:



Terry

I concur. This is a very good starter project. Don't worry about it not being electrically isolated from the AC line. That's half the fun. Plus you can always substitute those switching supplies you just bought, and make an isolated unregulated linear supply. There should be plenty of drawings floating around.

If you still want to learn some programming, and make an 'embedded app', save it for your NEXT project. With NO programming experience, you may want to go with the BASIC STAMP, and compare the literature versus the Arduino. Yes, its more expensive, and probably runs slower, but I suspect the learning curve is a bit easier [BASIC versus C].

Its still a lot cheaper than the tools available, when I learned how to do this. Microprocessor development tools (No micro-controllers at the time; 70s) went for $10K plus. When Motorola came out with their HC05 EVM for $500, I thought it was a steal, and picked up one quick (~1990). Now you can get in the game for under 10 bucks (see TI MSP430 posts).

One note on those TTL counters. Stay away from the 7492 (div-12; 74LS92, 74HC92 ...). Its got a weird count sequence that's mostly useless for a clock app. Just use 7493 (div-16; 74LS93, 74HC93 ...), and feedback counts 6, or 10, as needed, to the RESET inputs. 7490 (div-10; 74LS90, 74HC90 ...) is also okay. The weird count is probably an artifact of the limitations of when these parts came into being (60s).

-----
To: NEONIXIE-L@...
From: tschw10117@...

Shane, here is a great place to start:


-----

Thank you sir!

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