开云体育

Bob,

I have gone through that some time ago.
It is quite useful, though not exhaustive.

73
Jon, VU2JO

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 7:12?PM Bob Ecclestone VK2ZRE via groups.io
<becclest@...> wrote:

Jon,
Log into the groups.io nanovna group and go to the Files section.
Look for the "Absolute Beginners Guide". I think V6.20 is the last update.
It does not cover all the bells and whistles of the latest firmware, but
it is a good basic intro to the NanoVNA and VNAs in general.
By the time you work through that, you will be well on your way.
There is also a reasonably up to date version of the Menu Tree document
in there too somewhere. It explains in detail what the various Menu
Items do.
Enjoy your fantastic new piece of test equipment.
HTH. Cheers...Bob VK2ZRE


On 27/04/2025 4:26 pm, Jon via groups.io wrote:

Thank you Dave.

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 5:07?AM W0LEV via groups.io <davearea51a=
[email protected]> wrote:

No, it does not. However, there are several publications out that

instruct

one on using the NANOVNAs. Once you learn the basics, that should map

over

to any VNA, professional or NANO.

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 11:06?PM Jon via groups.io <vu2jo0=
[email protected]> wrote:

Dave,

Does the NanoVNA come with an instruction manual?

I received only a menu chart, and no other booklet.

73

Jon, VU2JO

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 3:45?AM W0LEV via groups.io <davearea51a=
[email protected]> wrote:

Yes, if your SAVER is miles outside of your intended cal range, you

need

to

do a cal on the native device first. I've never had that problem, so

I

wouldn't know. I've used professional VNAs for decades on the job

(I'm

now

retired) and own an HP 8753C, so I really didn't have to even open the
instruction book. Please forgive me.......

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:17?PM Stan Dye via groups.io <standye=
[email protected]> wrote:

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 10:39 AM, Dean W8ZF wrote:

because MAYBE it depends on the H4's cal state

From the nanovna-saver github readme (
):
Quote:
Calibration

Before using NanoVNA-Saver, please ensure that the device itself is

in

a

reasonable calibration state.

A calibration of both ports across the entire frequency span, saved

to

save slot 0, is sufficient. If the NanoVNA is completely

uncalibrated,

its

readings may be outside the range accepted by the application.

-------------
And from the code itself, the following code fragment shows that
nanovna-saver uses the "scan" command, rather than the "scanraw"

command,

to get its data from nanovna. The "scan" command returns S11/S12

data

with nanovna internal calibration (if any) applied.

def setSweep(self, start, stop):
self.start = start
self.stop = stop
list(self.exec_command(f"scan {start} {stop}

{self.datapoints}"))

-------------

So nanovna-saver indeed does depend on the calibration state of the
nanovna; they are not independent.
Q.E.D.

If you want independent calibration, use nanovna-app instead. It is

a

quite different application with its own learning curve, but it has
specific settings to use the nanovna internal or nanovna-app

calibration.

I use both apps, they both have excellent features.

Stan KC7XE

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

Jon,
Log into the groups.io nanovna group and go to the Files section.
Look for the "Absolute Beginners Guide". I think V6.20 is the last update.
It does not cover all the bells and whistles of the latest firmware, but it is a good basic intro to the NanoVNA and VNAs in general.
By the time you work through that, you will be well on your way.
There is also a reasonably up to date version of the Menu Tree document in there too somewhere. It explains in detail what the various Menu Items do.
Enjoy your fantastic new piece of test equipment.
HTH. Cheers...Bob VK2ZRE

Jim,

You are exactly right about the graphical design of a matching network. Some years ago I worked up a network which involved solving a quadratic equation, easily done. So I had an analytic solution for that network.

I wanted a similar, but not identical network that also involved a quadratic. Well, sort of: the equation for that network involved a multiplicative term that made its solution difficult to visualize, at least for me.

But in plotting what I wanted each network to do on a Smith chart, I could see a reverse symmetry between the networks. Modifying the first solution using that information yielded an exact analytic solution for the second network.

I don't known whether or not I would have seen that solution without resort to the visual presentation of a Smith chart.

73,

Maynard
W6PAP

Thank you Don

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 5:11?AM Don Thomas via groups.io <satranger1=
[email protected]> wrote:

Jon,Look in the group files section. Lots of user information there.

Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:37 PM, W0LEV via groups.io<davearea51a=
[email protected]> wrote: No, it does not. However, there are
several publications out that instruct
one on using the NANOVNAs. Once you learn the basics, that should map over
to any VNA, professional or NANO.

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 11:06?PM Jon via groups.io <vu2jo0=
[email protected]> wrote:

Dave,

Does the NanoVNA come with an instruction manual?

I received only a menu chart, and no other booklet.

73

Jon, VU2JO

--
Don K5ZRQ

Thank you Dave.

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 5:07?AM W0LEV via groups.io <davearea51a=
[email protected]> wrote:

No, it does not. However, there are several publications out that instruct
one on using the NANOVNAs. Once you learn the basics, that should map over
to any VNA, professional or NANO.

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 11:06?PM Jon via groups.io <vu2jo0=
[email protected]> wrote:

Dave,

Does the NanoVNA come with an instruction manual?

I received only a menu chart, and no other booklet.

73

Jon, VU2JO

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 3:45?AM W0LEV via groups.io <davearea51a=
[email protected]> wrote:

Yes, if your SAVER is miles outside of your intended cal range, you

need

to

do a cal on the native device first. I've never had that problem, so I
wouldn't know. I've used professional VNAs for decades on the job (I'm

now

retired) and own an HP 8753C, so I really didn't have to even open the
instruction book. Please forgive me.......

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:17?PM Stan Dye via groups.io <standye=
[email protected]> wrote:

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 10:39 AM, Dean W8ZF wrote:

because MAYBE it depends on the H4's cal state

From the nanovna-saver github readme (
):
Quote:
Calibration

Before using NanoVNA-Saver, please ensure that the device itself is

in

a

reasonable calibration state.

A calibration of both ports across the entire frequency span, saved

to

save slot 0, is sufficient. If the NanoVNA is completely

uncalibrated,

its

readings may be outside the range accepted by the application.

-------------
And from the code itself, the following code fragment shows that
nanovna-saver uses the "scan" command, rather than the "scanraw"

command,

to get its data from nanovna. The "scan" command returns S11/S12

data

with nanovna internal calibration (if any) applied.

def setSweep(self, start, stop):
self.start = start
self.stop = stop
list(self.exec_command(f"scan {start} {stop}

{self.datapoints}"))

-------------

So nanovna-saver indeed does depend on the calibration state of the
nanovna; they are not independent.
Q.E.D.

If you want independent calibration, use nanovna-app instead. It is

a

quite different application with its own learning curve, but it has
specific settings to use the nanovna internal or nanovna-app

calibration.

I use both apps, they both have excellent features.

Stan KC7XE

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

Convenience for graphical design of a matching network. There’s also sort of a qualitative thing that you recognize particular “shapes” on the chart as having particular significance.

And, if you’re tuning a filter by turning a screw, sometimes seeing the Smith chart in real time is more “intuitive” in some sense. I tune filters looking at magnitude S11 and S22 and S21. For a three section filter, you can see the three resonances, and looking from one end or the other tends to emphasize the section closest to the port you’re looking at.

These days, with computers, seeing the Smith chart isn’t as useful.
I use plots of magnitude and phase for design. And I work with a lot of more than one port systems, for which the Smith chart is less useful. For instance, if you’re looking at the coupling among antennas in a phased array.

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 04:32 PM, W0LEV wrote:

The VECTOR reflection coefficient gives you far
more information than just frequency response!!

If you can plot the real and imaginary parts of an S-parameter as well as magnitude, phase, and SWR, what additional information does a Smith chart provide? Is the advantage that you get SWR and impedance in one curve as Stan suggests?

Brian

Jon,Look in the group files section. Lots of user information there.?

Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:37 PM, W0LEV via groups.io<davearea51a@...> wrote: No, it does not.? However, there are several publications out that instruct
one on using the NANOVNAs.? Once you learn the basics, that should map over
to any VNA, professional or NANO.

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 11:06?PM Jon via groups.io <vu2jo0=
[email protected]> wrote:

Dave,

Does the NanoVNA come with an instruction manual?

I received only a menu chart, and no other booklet.

73

Jon, VU2JO

--
Don ? K5ZRQ

No, it does not. However, there are several publications out that instruct
one on using the NANOVNAs. Once you learn the basics, that should map over
to any VNA, professional or NANO.

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 11:06?PM Jon via groups.io <vu2jo0=
[email protected]> wrote:

Dave,

Does the NanoVNA come with an instruction manual?

I received only a menu chart, and no other booklet.

73

Jon, VU2JO

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 3:45?AM W0LEV via groups.io <davearea51a=
[email protected]> wrote:

Yes, if your SAVER is miles outside of your intended cal range, you need

to

do a cal on the native device first. I've never had that problem, so I
wouldn't know. I've used professional VNAs for decades on the job (I'm

now

retired) and own an HP 8753C, so I really didn't have to even open the
instruction book. Please forgive me.......

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:17?PM Stan Dye via groups.io <standye=
[email protected]> wrote:

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 10:39 AM, Dean W8ZF wrote:

because MAYBE it depends on the H4's cal state

From the nanovna-saver github readme (
):
Quote:
Calibration

Before using NanoVNA-Saver, please ensure that the device itself is in

a

reasonable calibration state.

A calibration of both ports across the entire frequency span, saved to
save slot 0, is sufficient. If the NanoVNA is completely uncalibrated,

its

readings may be outside the range accepted by the application.

-------------
And from the code itself, the following code fragment shows that
nanovna-saver uses the "scan" command, rather than the "scanraw"

command,

to get its data from nanovna. The "scan" command returns S11/S12 data
with nanovna internal calibration (if any) applied.

def setSweep(self, start, stop):
self.start = start
self.stop = stop
list(self.exec_command(f"scan {start} {stop}

{self.datapoints}"))

-------------

So nanovna-saver indeed does depend on the calibration state of the
nanovna; they are not independent.
Q.E.D.

If you want independent calibration, use nanovna-app instead. It is a
quite different application with its own learning curve, but it has
specific settings to use the nanovna internal or nanovna-app

calibration.

I use both apps, they both have excellent features.

Stan KC7XE

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

After working with Smith charts for awhile, and understanding them - they provide in one 'glance' a visualization of the complex impedance across frequency, at the same time as a visualization of the SWR across frequency. And at the same time, for a length of transmission line, you can see the wavelengths/half-wavelengths directly. I don't know of another single plot that can do that (I guess you can overlay multiple traces on the same XY plot to acheive it, but it is IMO not as convenient).
Stan KC7XE

Yes, and if you let the PC do all the optimization work, what have you
learned? Not much other than how to use the PC for the applications.
Rectangular plots vs. frequency, Bode plots, give you absolutely no
information of the complex portions of impedances. Yea, poles and zeros.
They're like an SWR meter. The VECTOR reflection coefficient gives you far
more information than just frequency response!! Bode plots address
frequency response, and, yes, some additional information. But they are
certainly not as powerful as the Smith Charts when it comes to dealing with
complex sources and loads. By complex, I mean the reactive components of a
circuit, not a "complex" circuit.

Sorry, I live on the Smith Chart and have no intention of letting the PC do
all the work. What have I missed? Everything.....

EXAMPLE: The EE students at CSU up in Fort Collins, Colorado, "learn"
electronics sitting in front of PCs doing simulations. I've worked with a
few of them before retiring. They are useless in both designing and
troubleshooting. If it were up to me, they would not have been hired!
They can't even put Ohm's Law on the white board, let alone use it!!!!
Sure, they learn how to use the modeling applications. But those change.
After a decade or so, they're useless at even running the newer
applications. Then they need to find a new career.

I'll stick with my Smith Charts, thank you.......

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 11:18?PM Brian Beezley via groups.io <k6sti=
[email protected]> wrote:

I never intended to add a Smith chart to my S-parameter plotter. I can
appreciate how useful they must have been before computers, but I don't see
their value today. A computer program, especially one with automatic
optimization, can make quick work of a complex matching problem. However,
since I see references to Smith charts here all the time, before I dismiss
them I thought I should ask why people use them. What do they offer that
rectangular plots versus frequency don't?



Brian

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

I never intended to add a Smith chart to my S-parameter plotter. I can appreciate how useful they must have been before computers, but I don't see their value today. A computer program, especially one with automatic optimization, can make quick work of a complex matching problem. However, since I see references to Smith charts here all the time, before I dismiss them I thought I should ask why people use them. What do they offer that rectangular plots versus frequency don't?



Brian

Dave,

Does the NanoVNA come with an instruction manual?

I received only a menu chart, and no other booklet.

73

Jon, VU2JO

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 3:45?AM W0LEV via groups.io <davearea51a=
[email protected]> wrote:

Yes, if your SAVER is miles outside of your intended cal range, you need to
do a cal on the native device first. I've never had that problem, so I
wouldn't know. I've used professional VNAs for decades on the job (I'm now
retired) and own an HP 8753C, so I really didn't have to even open the
instruction book. Please forgive me.......

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:17?PM Stan Dye via groups.io <standye=
[email protected]> wrote:

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 10:39 AM, Dean W8ZF wrote:

because MAYBE it depends on the H4's cal state

From the nanovna-saver github readme (
):
Quote:
Calibration

Before using NanoVNA-Saver, please ensure that the device itself is in a
reasonable calibration state.

A calibration of both ports across the entire frequency span, saved to
save slot 0, is sufficient. If the NanoVNA is completely uncalibrated,

its

readings may be outside the range accepted by the application.

-------------
And from the code itself, the following code fragment shows that
nanovna-saver uses the "scan" command, rather than the "scanraw" command,
to get its data from nanovna. The "scan" command returns S11/S12 data
with nanovna internal calibration (if any) applied.

def setSweep(self, start, stop):
self.start = start
self.stop = stop
list(self.exec_command(f"scan {start} {stop} {self.datapoints}"))
-------------

So nanovna-saver indeed does depend on the calibration state of the
nanovna; they are not independent.
Q.E.D.

If you want independent calibration, use nanovna-app instead. It is a
quite different application with its own learning curve, but it has
specific settings to use the nanovna internal or nanovna-app calibration.
I use both apps, they both have excellent features.

Stan KC7XE

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

Yes, if your SAVER is miles outside of your intended cal range, you need to
do a cal on the native device first. I've never had that problem, so I
wouldn't know. I've used professional VNAs for decades on the job (I'm now
retired) and own an HP 8753C, so I really didn't have to even open the
instruction book. Please forgive me.......

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:17?PM Stan Dye via groups.io <standye=
[email protected]> wrote:

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 10:39 AM, Dean W8ZF wrote:

because MAYBE it depends on the H4's cal state

From the nanovna-saver github readme (
):
Quote:
Calibration

Before using NanoVNA-Saver, please ensure that the device itself is in a
reasonable calibration state.

A calibration of both ports across the entire frequency span, saved to
save slot 0, is sufficient. If the NanoVNA is completely uncalibrated, its
readings may be outside the range accepted by the application.

-------------
And from the code itself, the following code fragment shows that
nanovna-saver uses the "scan" command, rather than the "scanraw" command,
to get its data from nanovna. The "scan" command returns S11/S12 data
with nanovna internal calibration (if any) applied.

def setSweep(self, start, stop):
self.start = start
self.stop = stop
list(self.exec_command(f"scan {start} {stop} {self.datapoints}"))
-------------

So nanovna-saver indeed does depend on the calibration state of the
nanovna; they are not independent.
Q.E.D.

If you want independent calibration, use nanovna-app instead. It is a
quite different application with its own learning curve, but it has
specific settings to use the nanovna internal or nanovna-app calibration.
I use both apps, they both have excellent features.

Stan KC7XE

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 02:06 PM, Dean W8ZF wrote:

I'm a little surprised that nanovna-saver depends on the H4's calibration
state

They did that to avoid some problems that require extra coding. And since you can do one calibration from 50kHz to 900MHz, and save it in slot 0, you never have to revisit it. The problem is that nanovna can output S11/S21 values outside the range 0<=x<=1 if it is not calibrated - which causes arithmetic errors with any normal S11/S21 processing algorithm. And if you calibrate it first, the nanovna does not do that (except maybe under rare conditions). And it doesn't matter so much what the nanovna calibration is - it just needs to be there and be consistent - because the 'working' calibration is that done by the nanovna-saver algorithm.

Thanks, Stan!
This is definitive and helps me understand what to expect. I'll try nanovna-app, to see what that's about. I'm a little surprised that nanovna-saver depends on the H4's calibration state, but the code is the code! (Unless they change it, LOL.)
73,
Dean W8ZF

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 10:39 AM, Dean W8ZF wrote:

because MAYBE it depends on the H4's cal state

From the nanovna-saver github readme ():
Quote:
Calibration

Before using NanoVNA-Saver, please ensure that the device itself is in a reasonable calibration state.

A calibration of both ports across the entire frequency span, saved to save slot 0, is sufficient. If the NanoVNA is completely uncalibrated, its readings may be outside the range accepted by the application.

-------------
And from the code itself, the following code fragment shows that nanovna-saver uses the "scan" command, rather than the "scanraw" command, to get its data from nanovna. The "scan" command returns S11/S12 data with nanovna internal calibration (if any) applied.

def setSweep(self, start, stop):
self.start = start
self.stop = stop
list(self.exec_command(f"scan {start} {stop} {self.datapoints}"))
-------------

So nanovna-saver indeed does depend on the calibration state of the nanovna; they are not independent.
Q.E.D.

If you want independent calibration, use nanovna-app instead. It is a quite different application with its own learning curve, but it has specific settings to use the nanovna internal or nanovna-app calibration. I use both apps, they both have excellent features.

Stan KC7XE

And thank you, Stan, for your feedback!
73,
Dean W8ZF

Thanks Dave,
So if the H4 internal cal is *independent* of the nanovna-saver cal, exactly what are you clearing with nanovna-saver's "clear all cals"and when would that be necessary?
I ALWAYS either calibrate prior to measurements (and upon any sweep range or source power change) or I alternatively load a saved calibration file generated by nanovna-saver. Doesn't using the calibration assistant or loading the cal file "clear all cals"?

I understand the principles and use of a VNA. I'm a Senior Principal RF engineer and have used professional VNAs for 45 years. But I am new to the nanovna VNA implementation and the interactions of the H4 with software interfaces. What would be the source of information on whether nanovna-saver uses raw data from the nanovna as part of its calibration, nor not? I can always use the internal calibrate routine in the H4 for mobile use, it looks like that's necessary (since the nanovna-saver cal data is independent). But I am still not convinced that I can trust nanovna-saver's calibration (because MAYBE it depends on the H4's cal state).

Thanks and 73,
Dean W8ZF

No. They are independent.

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 5:00?PM Stan Dye via groups.io <standye=
[email protected]> wrote:

Dave, correct information, but you did not address his real question: Is
the nanovna-saver 0.4.0 calibration dependent on the nanovna internal cal?

I was taught (back a couple of years ago) that nanovna-saver reads the
calibrated data from the nanovna. So on nanovna, you should do a
wide-range calibration, and use that cal whenever you use nanovna-saver
calibrations - both during the nanovna-saver calibration, and for all
measurements with nanovna-saver. Alternately, you could reset/disable the
nanovna calibration whenever you use nanovna-saver, but sometimes that
caused problems due to an out-of-range raw data value from nanovna. Back
at that time, I verified that this was correct.

Has nanovna-saver been changed to read the raw data and deal with the
out-of-range problem? Not that I am aware of. [But then I mostly use
nanovna-app nowadays.]

And Dean, in answer to your question, if you always use the same nanovna
cal when using nanovna-saver, no nanovna change is necessary when you
change ranges, etc. and calibrate in nanovna-saver. This is because the
nanovna-saver calibration compensates for whatever it sees in the data from
nanovna. Ideally, the nanovna calibration will have a wide frequency
range which is a superset of the frequency ranges that you will use in
nanovna-saver.

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV