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The make up is one thing were the clones come in is the software and firmware that you cant make work or upgrade.
________________________________
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Siegfried Jackstien via groups.io <siegfried.jackstien@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2025 6:29 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Erratic traces with SAA2N

they claim ALL (except their own) as clones ...

but they are all "brothers and sisters", cousins .. ... etc etc

they all are made quite similar in circuit design

dg9bfc sigi

Am 15.03.2025 um 11:33 schrieb K3IY via groups.io:

I got an email response from NanoRFE support with some concerning information. They suggested that the hardware version of my SAA2N "is a clone" and many users have reported issues with it. I was puzzled because I did my research (or at least I thought I did), and all sources online said there's enough bad clones out there and if you're in the US avoid this by buying from R&L electronics. NanoRFE support pointed me to their website which has a listed of suppliers selling clones. To my surprise R&L electronics is on that list and they're noted to "keep selling clones despite not being asked to by the original developers". If this is indeed true I am very disappointed in R&L and will be giving them a call to discuss a possible resolution.

they claim ALL (except their own) as clones ...

but they are all "brothers and sisters", cousins ..? ... etc etc

they all are made quite similar in circuit design

dg9bfc sigi

Am 15.03.2025 um 11:33 schrieb K3IY via groups.io:

maybe the case is pressing on the touch screen? ... or the screen cable is not well fitted

did you try to connect it to pc (example nanovna app)??

dg9bfc sigi

Am 16.03.2025 um 23:31 schrieb Taracait via groups.io:

Sorry, it is indeed -H; but not '4'

I'll try with differeny connection - thanks!

Battery is fine, 3.7VDC; checked at the unit PCB.

And the screen is lighting up (white), so power isw not the problem

If I get you correctly, that is the "skin" current that gets radiated from
the antenna as pure RF ? If so, that remaining common mode current is
reflected back at the source and then "recombine" at the connector to be
read as "raised noise" or reflected power ? Can I see it this way ?

RF energy that is intended to be radiated from the antenna all reduces as
fields inside the coax. Fields between:

1) The inner surface of the outer shield, and

2) The outer surface of the center conductor.

The internal fields carry the RF power.

What is referred to as the common mode current travels on the outside
surface of the outer shield.

If I'm still correct, then the 2-3 turns around the ferrite will "trap"
this third wire current and give me a more accurate reading ?

A few turns through the toroid will not "trap" RF energy on the outer
surface of the shield, but it will prevent energy from the antenna inducing
current on the outer surface of the shield. As such, your coax will become
isolated from the assembly. Of course, there will be no effect on fields
internal to the coax. There will be a small amount of "trapping" due to
losses in the ferrite. Some ferrites are designed specifically for loss.

In the last test I did, I had wrapped one ferrite at each end of the cable
for 2 turns. When I put my hands on coax, I could see that I got almost no
" hand touching" effect on the VNA. Well, I want to thank you for this
advice because it really helped me.

Your result is just what we were striving for. There is little or no
interaction between the assembly/antenna and the outer surface of the
shield. Excellent!

Now, here are the inductors and capacitors I bought.

Wurth Electronics 0603 RF inductor designer's ket


RF and microwave 0603 capacitor kit


Excellent!

As for all the previous test I made in the last few days, each and every
time I tried to add a matching inductor and/or capacitor, it did not
helped. My measurement got to the other side of the spectrum. This leads me
to think that as exactly as you pointed out, my measurement accuracy is
distorted.

With a few turns through your toroids at each end of the coax, the impact
of the matching network may become more observable and not disturbed by
grabbing the coax.

I'll make some other testing with my smaller ferrite with 3 turns instead
of 2 as close as I can to the insertion point and get back to you with some
results.

I don't know much I can thank you enough for all the time you take helping
me out. It is truly appreciated.

Just glad to help and apply what I've learned over some 60+ years to help
others.

Dave - W?LEV


On Sun, Mar 16, 2025 at 6:17?PM Nico via groups.io <nicolassimard=
[email protected]> wrote:

@Roger And @Dave,

If I get you correctly, that is the "skin" current that gets radiated from
the antenna as pure RF ? If so, that remaining common mode current is
reflected back at the source and then "recombine" at the connector to be
read as "raised noise" or reflected power ? Can I see it this way ?

If I'm still correct, then the 2-3 turns around the ferrite will "trap"
this third wire current and give me a more accurate reading ?

In the last test I did, I had wrapped one ferrite at each end of the cable
for 2 turns. When I put my hands on coax, I could see that I got almost no
" hand touching" effect on the VNA. Well, I want to thank you for this
advice because it really helped me.

Now, here are the inductors and capacitors I bought.

Wurth Electronics 0603 RF inductor designer's ket



RF and microwave 0603 capacitor kit



As for all the previous test I made in the last few days, each and every
time I tried to add a matching inductor and/or capacitor, it did not
helped. My measurement got to the other side of the spectrum. This leads me
to think that as exactly as you pointed out, my measurement accuracy is
distorted.

I'll make some other testing with my smaller ferrite with 3 turns instead
of 2 as close as I can to the insertion point and get back to you with some
results.

I don't know much I can thank you enough for all the time you take helping
me out. It is truly appreciated.

Nic

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

@Roger And @Dave,

If I get you correctly, that is the "skin" current that gets radiated from the antenna as pure RF ? If so, that remaining common mode current is reflected back at the source and then "recombine" at the connector to be read as "raised noise" or reflected power ? Can I see it this way ?

If I'm still correct, then the 2-3 turns around the ferrite will "trap" this third wire current and give me a more accurate reading ?

In the last test I did, I had wrapped one ferrite at each end of the cable for 2 turns. When I put my hands on coax, I could see that I got almost no " hand touching" effect on the VNA. Well, I want to thank you for this advice because it really helped me.

Now, here are the inductors and capacitors I bought.

Wurth Electronics 0603 RF inductor designer's ket


RF and microwave 0603 capacitor kit


As for all the previous test I made in the last few days, each and every time I tried to add a matching inductor and/or capacitor, it did not helped. My measurement got to the other side of the spectrum. This leads me to think that as exactly as you pointed out, my measurement accuracy is distorted.

I'll make some other testing with my smaller ferrite with 3 turns instead of 2 as close as I can to the insertion point and get back to you with some results.

I don't know much I can thank you enough for all the time you take helping me out. It is truly appreciated.

Nic

This will download the updated S-parameter plotting program:



I was surprised to discover that the final Touchstone 1.1 file specification provides for multiple, real-valued reference impedances. The plotting program will handle these files.

The maximum reference impedance is 9999 ohms. This seems reasonable given VNA accuracy limitations for high impedances. Some interesting devices are beyond this limit (e.g., 27k ohms for Collins mechanical filters). Shunt capacitance can go to 9999 pF.

The program is not intended to replace NanoVNA-Saver or NanoVNA-App. It provides a convenient way to display all S-parameters, including S12 and S22, and to use the full set for reference impedance renormalization. It handles a different reference impedance for each port, with or without shunt capacitance. No need to build a special, impedance-matching test fixture to measure a filter with nonstandard, unequal impedances. The program provides the stray-cancelling Y21 series-through impedance measurement as well as the usual S21 and S11 series and shunt methods.

Brian

Thanks Brian,
That link worked OK
73,
Geoff

I seem to have gotten everything working. The plots show a 280 kHz Murata ceramic filter with an 82 pF load on its output. The dB and group delay curves are similar to those published by Murata for a 230 kHz filter.

I spent a lot of time looking for bugs when I noticed that S12 > 1 for some capacitive loads. I finally found two references that explained how this was possible for a passive device for a complex port reference impedance. It does not indicate a violation of conservation of energy as it would for a real reference impedance. I am using pseudo-wave analysis instead of the older power-wave analysis. They yield identical results for real reference impedances, but only pseudo-wave can handle complex impedances.

I'm going to spend some time checking for bugs as I changed a lot of code. I'll post a message when the new version is available.

Brian

When you use a coaxial cable the RF current goes up and down the center
conductor and the inner surface of the coax shield. The reason I say inner
shield is that due to the "skin effect" the RF current only travels on the
surface of the inner surface of the shield and slightly below the surface.
The outer surface is effectively isolated and acts like a "third wire".

You are correct. A coaxial cable is really a 3-conductor topology for RF
energy.

1) The inner portion of the center conductor which only supplies
"bulk" to the conductor
and really does nothing for conducting RF energy.

2) The outer surface of the center conductor which conducts RF energy
(skin depth).

3) The inner surface of the shield which conducts RF energy (skin
effect).

4) The outer surface of the shield which only supplies "bulk" to the
conductor and really
does nothing for conducting internal energy. However, if not
correctly decoupled, may
carry common mode currents which distort antenna patterns and
introduce noise to the
receiving system (degrade receiver noise floor).

Now in your case you have the following. You have a microstrip
transmission line and only one side is connected to your helical radiator.
So what is the return path of the RF current? It is the ground side of the
microstrip which is connected to the ground plane. So your antenna
consists of the helical radiator and the other half is the transmission
line ground side and PCB ground plane. Both are radiating RF.

All correct.

When you connect your RG316 cable and nanoVNA the RF current flows on the
inner conductor and inner surface of the shield. The outer surface is
attached to the ground plane so it will radiate as well and is part of the
antenna system. When you wrap the coax around a ferrite you do not affect
the current flowing inside the coax - only the current on the outer shield
is reduced. The current flowing on the outer surface is known as "common
mode current" The common mode current reduction is due to the complex
impedance (R + X) of the inductor which is effectively in series with the
outer shield surface. If you google "braid breaker", "current balun" or
"RF Choke" you will find more info on this subject.

For your application I'd recommend a current choke consisting of 2 to 3
turns loosely spaced of your RG-316 on a small (1" OD or so) 61 material
ferrite toroid. Place this immediately at the connection of the coax braid
to the PCB with absolutely minimal pigtail.

Dave - W?LEV


On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 6:34?PM Roger Need via groups.io <sailtamarack=
[email protected]> wrote:

On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 08:39 PM, Nico wrote:

It took me a few reading of your two last replies but I think I got it.

If I

understand correctly, the shield of my coax is now integral part of the
antenna system as it is connected to the ground pad which is the antenna

and

system ground and also the ground plane. In this case then, how will I

ever

achieve an accurate reading ?

When you use a coaxial cable the RF current goes up and down the center
conductor and the inner surface of the coax shield. The reason I say inner
shield is that due to the "skin effect" the RF current only travels on the
surface of the inner surface of the shield and slightly below the surface.
The outer surface is effectively isolated and acts like a "third wire".

Now in your case you have the following. You have a microstrip
transmission line and only one side is connected to your helical radiator.
So what is the return path of the RF current? It is the ground side of the
microstrip which is connected to the ground plane. So your antenna
consists of the helical radiator and the other half is the transmission
line ground side and PCB ground plane. Both are radiating RF.

When you connect your RG316 cable and nanoVNA the RF current flows on the
inner conductor and inner surface of the shield. The outer surface is
attached to the ground plane so it will radiate as well and is part of the
antenna system. When you wrap the coax around a ferrite you do not affect
the current flowing inside the coax - only the current on the outer shield
is reduced. The current flowing on the outer surface is known as "common
mode current" The common mode current reduction is due to the complex
impedance (R + X) of the inductor which is effectively in series with the
outer shield surface. If you google "braid breaker", "current balun" or
"RF Choke" you will find more info on this subject.

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

ST-LINK info:
/g/nanovna-users/topic/nanovna_bricked/34149616

On Sat, Mar 15, 2025, 10:40 AM SP1RAC via groups.io <sp1rac@...>
wrote:

Maybe you have a problem with the battery.
I would open the NanoVNA and disconnect the battery.
Check if it is working. Use a meter to check if there is voltage coming
out of it and what it is.
Also check the battery socket.

Geoff, this will download the program and documentation:



Brian

Brian,

When I go to this link:
I get the message that ham-radio.com domain has expired.

Is the above link you posted correct.
73,
Geoff - W8GNM

On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 08:39 PM, Nico wrote:

It took me a few reading of your two last replies but I think I got it. If I
understand correctly, the shield of my coax is now integral part of the
antenna system as it is connected to the ground pad which is the antenna and
system ground and also the ground plane. In this case then, how will I ever
achieve an accurate reading ?

When you use a coaxial cable the RF current goes up and down the center conductor and the inner surface of the coax shield. The reason I say inner shield is that due to the "skin effect" the RF current only travels on the surface of the inner surface of the shield and slightly below the surface. The outer surface is effectively isolated and acts like a "third wire".

Now in your case you have the following. You have a microstrip transmission line and only one side is connected to your helical radiator. So what is the return path of the RF current? It is the ground side of the microstrip which is connected to the ground plane. So your antenna consists of the helical radiator and the other half is the transmission line ground side and PCB ground plane. Both are radiating RF.

When you connect your RG316 cable and nanoVNA the RF current flows on the inner conductor and inner surface of the shield. The outer surface is attached to the ground plane so it will radiate as well and is part of the antenna system. When you wrap the coax around a ferrite you do not affect the current flowing inside the coax - only the current on the outer shield is reduced. The current flowing on the outer surface is known as "common mode current" The common mode current reduction is due to the complex impedance (R + X) of the inductor which is effectively in series with the outer shield surface. If you google "braid breaker", "current balun" or "RF Choke" you will find more info on this subject.

Below is an update on the schedule of speakers and presentations for the
Southeastern VHF Society Conference. The conference will be held at the
Quality Inn at Exit #4 in Clarksville, TN April 4-5, 2025. This is an
opportunity to meet other VHF+ enthusiasts, learn, exchange ideas, and have
FUN. The $69 registration fee for the conference is required, and it
includes a 1 year membership in the SVHFS. Details are here:
. Advance registration is highly
recommended as the hotel requires a head count in order to prepare the food
for the event. There will be door prizes given away at the banquet on
Saturday evening. Feel free to contact me via email if you have any
questions: RobinK4IDC@....

*Preliminary 2025 SVHFS Conference Schedule*

*Friday*

*8:00 AM Registration*

9:00 Charles Osborne -K4CSO – RF Zero - 30 min

9:30 Robin Midgett – K4IDC – RF Zero 2 Meter Beacon- 30 min

10:00 Bob Lear – W4ZST Power Dividers and Cable Loops – 30 min

10:30 15 Minute Break

10:45 Mike Stipick – KC4RI – 5.7 GHz SDR Transceiver - 45 min

11:30 Bill Pence – Grid Square Locator – 30 min

12:00 PM Lunch - Steve and Sandra Kostro – Designing a Multi Band
Transverter

1:15

2:00 Paul Wielozenski - K4PEW - VHF Nets – 30 min

2:30 Ben Lowe – Rover Radiators – 30 min

3:00 George Presley – 10 GHz Beacon – 30 min

4:00 Charles Osborne / Kent O’ Dell – 10GHz Antenna test Range - 30 min

5:00 Dinner –On your own

7:00 Swap Fest and Hospitality Suite

*Saturday*

9:00 AM Brian McCarthy – Lunar Rover Truck, 2.3GHz Amp – 1 hour

10:00 Peter Van Horne – KA6U - Moon Bounce Rover – 45 min

10:45 15 Minute Break

11:00 Chris Arthur - NV4B – 45 min

12:00 PM Lunch - On your own

1:30 Larry Cagle - K4WLO – Meteor Scatter with MSK144 - 45 min

2:15 SVHFS Business Meeting

3:00 – 5:00 Rover Round Up and 10GHz Antenna Range

6:00 Social Hour- Hotel Bar

7:00 Dinner Banquet followed by the Door Prize Extravaganza!


Thanks,
Robin Midgett K4IDC


Thanks,
Robin Midgett K4IDC

Maybe you have a problem with the battery.
I would open the NanoVNA and disconnect the battery.
Check if it is working. Use a meter to check if there is voltage coming out of it and what it is.
Also check the battery socket.

You wrote in the title that the unit is: NanoVNA-H v3.5 ?
If you have somehow managed to wipe the bootloader (highly unlikely) your
only
choice left is to connect to the micro directly, using a programer like
st-link (2-3 bucks and Ali, Ebay etc).

On Sat, 15 Mar 2025 at 15:38, Taracait via groups.io <tcdrennen=
[email protected]> wrote:

Thanks. Clyde - but my unit is not -H; I did try the BOOTP - VDD reset, no
good, and all the other sequences mentioned.

Nothing lets me connect to the unit via USB-C.

I do appreciate the response. ?

On Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 13:34 Clyde Lambert via groups.io <clyde.lambert=
[email protected]> wrote:

Hello,
In the files section you will find a process to recover from "White

Screen

Recovery". Follow it PRECISELY STEP by STEP!.
If that does not work you could try, for the lack of a better term, a
factory reset.
Push the jog switch down to the left and hold while turning the unit on.
Then try the screen recovery.
Clyde KC7BJE

How to remove the stored numbers in the recall/empty windows

Thanks. Clyde - but my unit is not -H; I did try the BOOTP - VDD reset, no
good, and all the other sequences mentioned.

Nothing lets me connect to the unit via USB-C.

I do appreciate the response. ?

On Fri, Mar 14, 2025, 13:34 Clyde Lambert via groups.io <clyde.lambert=
[email protected]> wrote:

Hello,
In the files section you will find a process to recover from "White Screen
Recovery". Follow it PRECISELY STEP by STEP!.
If that does not work you could try, for the lack of a better term, a
factory reset.
Push the jog switch down to the left and hold while turning the unit on.
Then try the screen recovery.
Clyde KC7BJE