On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 07:01 AM, <btomek@...> wrote:
Could someone be so kind as to reproduce this measurement at his computer, on
his copy of the NanoVNA-App, with his NanoVNA and his cable of several meters?
If the result is good, it means that I am doing something wrong, and if it
comes out wrong, it means that there is a bug in the app.
YES there is something wrong with NanoVNA app calibration routine when using longer cables. I did some experiments with the original OneOfEleven, DiSlord and Duffy versions and all gave poor results when trying to de-embed at the end of a 3M RG-316 cable. I first calibrated right on my nanoVNA-H4 and then in NanoVNA app. Comparative sweeps were done selecting APP or VNA in the Calibration selection menu. Screenshots attached. My suspicion is that it is related to the length of the cable and the highest frequency selected for calibration. Hopefully DiSlord or Owen Duffy will take a look at the calibration routine and fix it in their "forks" of the One Of Eleven version. Roger
|
Re: check "Dollar Tree" store. Now Dollar and a Quarter!
On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 11:19 AM, Clyde Lambert wrote: I purchased a couple of USB lead wires from Dollar Tree. They lasted about
three or four weeks, then the insulation started separateing from the back of
the connector housing. I've noticed that with some of the cables I have purchased from Dollar Tree also, but mine are two or three years old, maybe more. Some are plugged into and unplugged from the phone or other devices daily, sometimes more than once a day. Maybe I'll buy some expensive cables some day, maybe not. If you can recommend a brand that you think will provide better bang for the buck, I'd consider buying some.
|
Re: nano vna small one is it the F
On Monday 27 February 2023 01:00:43 pm Roger Need via groups.io wrote: On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 09:17 AM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
Which is why when I ordered my unit from R&L, I also ordered adapters to BNC
and UHF. What I forgot about was SMA M-F "connector savers" to spare the
installed connectors on the unit from much wear and tear, but I did pick a
couple of those up at a hamfest at a later date... :-)
If those adapters are rigid ones you have to be careful because PL259 cables can put a lot of strain on the SMA connector/PCB board. I prefer to use pigtail adapters made with RG-174 or RG-316.
I suggest you get some connector savers soon or you will wear them out quickly. Low cost from this USA vendor.
I do intend to use those adapters at the end of the short bits of coax that came with the unit, rather than stressing the connectors on the board. And, I *did* get some connector savers as mentioned in the last sentence of my post. I thought this was a good idea after reading about them in here... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin
|
On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 06:33 PM, David Reams wrote:
Can you give me some more information on the STM boot loader and a source to
download?
David, There are two different drivers required when using a NanoVNA-H or NanoVNA-H4. One is required to get a COMxx: port so that your PC can exchange data with a NanoVNA. The other driver is required when you want to do firmware updates on your device. COM port driver --------------------- With Windows 10 and Windows 11 the required driver will be installed by Windows when you connect your NanoVNA to a USB port. With Windows 7 and Windows 8 you have to manually install the driver and then plug in your NanoVNA. If Windows 10 fails to install the driver (rarely happens) you can use the Windows 8 driver. You can check that the driver is working by plugging in and turning on your NanoVNA and then going into Device Manager and looking under ports to get the COM port number that has been assigned If you power off the NanoVNA the COM port should disappear from Device Manager. I have put a copy of the drivers on my BOX account for you to download. Here is a link where you can download it >> Unzip and select the 32 or 64 bit version for your computer. Firmware Upgrade driver --------------------------------- This driver is only required when you want to upgrade your firmware. It does not assign a COM port when the NanoVNA is plugged in and in DFU mode. DFU mode is activated in different ways depending on your device and the firmware installed. Old devices had to be put in DFU mode by opening the case and shorting the Boot0 and DFU pins. In other cases DFU was accessed by a Menu selection. DFU mode on the -H4 is activated by depressing the rocker switch down and powering on the anoVNA. When in DFU mode the screen will be black. You can check that the driver is installed correctly by looking under USB controllers and seeing if it shows that your device is in DFU mode (see attached screenshot). I have posted a link to the DfuSe package on my Box account for you. It will install the DFU driver and the DfuSe firmware upgrade application. The Absolute Beginners Guide in the file section of this group tells you how to install the DFU drivers that are needed for firmware update and how to install the latest firmware. /g/nanovna-users/files/Absolute%20Beginner%20Guide%20to%20The%20NanoVNA/Absolute_Beginner_Guide_NanoVNA_v1_6.pdfYou don't have to register to get the DFU program and drivers. I have put a copy on my Box account for you... Roger
|
Could someone be so kind as to reproduce this measurement at his computer, on his copy of the NanoVNA-App, with his NanoVNA and his cable of several meters?
If the result is good, it means that I am doing something wrong, and if it comes out wrong, it means that there is a bug in the app.
@John - You have an interesting idea, but in NanoVNA-App there is no possibility to set parameters for calibration standards. (Or I don't know where to set it). This is the default configuration of this program. I installed this program from scratch on another computer to check this and the error was the same. Perhaps the wrong calibration set parameters are set in the program inside somewhere, but they are not accessible from the GUI, or I can't find it. In Saver, these parameters are on top of the calibration screen. I did the test in Saver by setting them as ideal.
In NanoVNA-App Edelay=0 value, but you are right, if I set Edelay=-135ps then the graph is close to the dot in the right place. I think that guessing edelay is not the right way to go, especially since if I change the "number of points" then edelay comes out different. However, this dot is still large, and the problem of the last point at 900MHz is the same as before changing Edelay.
@Richard - I don't think it's the cable's fault. It is a normal SMA cable without any adapters. Not SMA-RP. But I will check it to be sure.
@Bob - I checked the other day what frequency my SI5351 works up to, and it working out to over 322MHz, so the treshold at 300MHz seems to have quite a margin.
Besides, this would not explain the fact that in the NanoVNA-Saver and directly on the device the results are correct. I only get errors in the NanoVNA-App.
|
Re: S-Band NanoVNA - SMA Connector Care
Hi Don,
Wow, what an insight that document is.
The comment on SMA connectors is very telling :
"These connectors do not work well in applications that require repeated connections; they wear out quickly. They work best as one-time only connectors, or in applications that require very few reconnections."
The moral: Get yourself a set of SMA M-F Connector Savers.
Also, DO NOT turn the connector, ONLY TURN THE NUT.
The specified torque for brass SMA connectors is 5 in-lb / 56N-cm.
Cheers...Bob VK2ZRE
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 28/02/2023 12:13 pm, Donald S Brant Jr wrote: Under-torquing an SMA (or any connector) will extend its life but compromise repeatability. For quick-and-dirty at HF finger-tight is fine, Above UHF one must be more careful and so on up into the microwave bands or for exacting measurements.
One contributor to long life is keeping the connectors clean. Fine-tipped foam swabs, alcohol and canned/compressed air work best.
Here is the Keysight "bible" on microwave connector care:
Best regards, Don
|
Just a Thought.
Perhaps it is the dreaded 5351 clock instability around 300MHz. The "900MHz" 3rd harmonic being my thought here.
Try setting the Threshold to 280MHz and Clear all the calibration data and redo your calibration.
HTH...Bob VK2ZRE
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 28/02/2023 7:41 am, John Gord via groups.io wrote: It looks like part of the problem may have to do with how you short the cable. Are you shorting it exactly the same in the calibration and for the plots you sent? (I assume the calibration is done with a male short and a barrel adapter. Is that how you generated the plots?} A barrel adapter could generate the arc you see on the plots.
If they are shorted the same way, how was the short defined to the calibration? If the Short is defined as non-ideal, application of the same Short will generate an arc instead of a dot when measured.
This does not explain the behavior at exactly 900 MHz.
--John Gord
On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 12:30 PM, <btomek@...> wrote:
Hello.
If I connect a cable to the NanoVNA and calibrate OSL at the end of that
cable, and measure the same cable, I should get 1 small point to the right of
the Smith chart when the cable is open, or 1 small point to the left when the
cable is shorted.
This happens if I calibrate in the NanoVNA device and use the internal
calibration.
But this does not happen when calibrating in the NanoVNA-App. After
calibrating with the 5-meter RG223 cable in the NanoVNA-App, something goes
wrong. Smith is rotating backwards.
In addition, the last measurement point is significantly different from the
previous ones, and this last point looks correct.
OPEN:
893250375 7,452017665e-01 6,873174310e-01
895500250 7,410393953e-01 6,873663068e-01
897750125 7,427099347e-01 6,907842755e-01
900000000 1,001433492e+00 3,330142936e-03
SHORT:
893250375 -7,893709540e-01 -6,558784842e-01
895500250 -7,710666060e-01 -6,550329924e-01
897750125 -7,579773664e-01 -6,538544297e-01
900000000 -1,000591993e+00 -2,029109281e-03
If I do the calibration without a cable, directly on the SMA socket of the
NanoVNA, the graphs do not show anything disturbing. Probably the error also
exists but is so small that it is invisible.
NanoVNA-App version 1.1.209 +OD12 from OwenDuffy,
NanoVNA-App version 1.1.213 released 2023-01-22 from DiSlord has the same
issue.
NanoVNA-H4 firmware 1.2.19 from DiSlord
Is this a bug or am I doing something wrong?
|
David,
Here¡¯s the link to the one I used.
|
Can you give me some more information on the STM boot loader and a source to download?
Thanks for your help!!
David
|
Under-torquing an SMA (or any connector) will extend its life but compromise repeatability. For quick-and-dirty at HF finger-tight is fine, Above UHF one must be more careful and so on up into the microwave bands or for exacting measurements.
One contributor to long life is keeping the connectors clean. Fine-tipped foam swabs, alcohol and canned/compressed air work best.
Here is the Keysight "bible" on microwave connector care:
Best regards, Don
|
Re: Default com baudrate settings? NanoVNA-H
On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 02:34 PM, Ray, W4BYG wrote:
Roger,
My NanoVNA-H has v.0.2.3-2-g8ac9166, (not sure of the "g"), dated Build
Oct 10, 2019. Does that fall into what you call "old FW"?
YES that is very old firmware. Many bugs and improvements to the firmware have been made by DiSlord and Hugen.
If so, Don't know what is involved in gaining "the required the binary
protocol that DiSlord implemented in the NanoVNA-H firmware a couple of
years ago.
If you update the firmware in your -H to a recent version you will get the binary transfer protocol and many other useful features. The Absolute Beginners Guide in the file section of this group tells you how to install the DFU drivers that are needed for firmware update and how to install the latest firmware. /g/nanovna-users/files/Absolute%20Beginner%20Guide%20to%20The%20NanoVNA/Absolute_Beginner_Guide_NanoVNA_v1_6.pdfYou don't have to register to get the DFU program and drivers. I have put a copy on my Box account for you... Roger
|
Could the problem be, an RP-SMA cable. Been there done that! Richard K8CYK On Mon, Feb 27, 2023, 2:34 PM John Gord via groups.io <johngord= [email protected]> wrote: I don't use NanoVNA-App, but if I recall correctly, the short and open
standards can be defined with an offset (as opposed to "ideal" with no
offset). How are they defined in your setup? If they are defined with an
offset, they will show an arc on the Smith chart when later measured.
About 100ps would account for the arc seen. (It could also be that your
Edelay is set to a non-zero value.)
--John Gord
On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 12:52 PM, <btomek@...> wrote:
Hello Roger and John.
I did not write exactly what the s1p files are, sorry.
short.s1p open.s1p = These are the cable measurement files with
calibration
in the NanoVNA-App application. These are the results of the calibrated cable
measurements. Here there should be a point to the left or right of the Smith
chart and not what it is.
The other files are calibration files:
5mRG223_2.cal = saved calibration to file in NanoVNA-App
5mRG223_2 load.s1p 5mRG223_2 open.s1p 5mRG223_2 short.s1p = extracted s1p
from calibration file 5mRG223_2.cal
In the NanoVNA-Saver application there is no problem, the results are as they
should be. I performed the calibration in the same way as in the NanoVNA-App.
I attach the files from NanoVNA-Saver.
short-saver.s1p open-saver.s1p = measurement files.
savercal.cal = saved calibration file.
OPEN: (from Saver)
893250375 1.0043507936078475 0.0072689050591551755
895500250 0.9953096933259286 0.003040661053564544
897750125 1.0026026659671343 0.015398351945836518
900000000 1.0121008164203733 0.010567866395416996
SHORT: (from Saver)
893250375 -0.9975612334870223 -0.007908615765804592
895500250 -1.0023639507804532 -0.01784955334584766
897750125 -1.0043480661900124 -0.004281182690156899
900000000 -0.9964829970674933 -0.00947613963899272
NanoVNA-Saver works ok in my opinion, while something is wrong with
NanoVNA-App. Or I'm doing something wrong there.
I prefer in using NanoVNA-App, so I would prefer that everything is correct
there in App.
(i missed attachment before)
John, yes, i'm shorting it exactly the same in the calibration and for the
plots i sent. My cable is an extension cord, it has a male connector on one
side and a female connector on the other. I did not use a barrel adapter.
|
Re: Default com baudrate settings? NanoVNA-H
Roger,
My NanoVNA-H has v.0.2.3-2-g8ac9166, (not sure of the "g"), dated Build Oct 10, 2019. Does that fall into what you call "old FW"?
If so, Don't know what is involved in gaining "the required the binary protocol that DiSlord implemented in the NanoVNA-H firmware a couple of years ago.
Thank you for your insight and assistance,
Ray, w4byg
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2/27/2023 13:06, Roger Need via groups.io wrote: On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 05:34 PM, Ray, W4BYG wrote:
Having some trouble getting my NanoVNA-H to talk to NanoVNA-App. The app
says it's connected via com 3, but it's not controlling the nano, or
exchanging any data to and from it. I've tried several baud rates, but
no dice.
The baud rate does dot matter on a USB "COM port". I suspect the reason NanoVNA app is not working on your -H is because you are using old firmware. The old firmware used text transfers for data exchange to the PC and if you connect to NanoVNA app nothing happens which is what you are seeing. NanoVNA app requires the binary protocol that DiSlord implemented in the NanoVNA firmware a couple of years ago.
Roger
-- "If you want to build a strong house, I'll give you my engineer's number. If you want to build a strong life, I'll introduce you to my carpenter." Lebron and Heather Lackey
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
|
I don't use NanoVNA-App, but if I recall correctly, the short and open standards can be defined with an offset (as opposed to "ideal" with no offset). How are they defined in your setup? If they are defined with an offset, they will show an arc on the Smith chart when later measured. About 100ps would account for the arc seen. (It could also be that your Edelay is set to a non-zero value.)
--John Gord
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 12:52 PM, <btomek@...> wrote:
Hello Roger and John.
I did not write exactly what the s1p files are, sorry.
short.s1p open.s1p = These are the cable measurement files with calibration
in the NanoVNA-App application. These are the results of the calibrated cable
measurements. Here there should be a point to the left or right of the Smith
chart and not what it is.
The other files are calibration files:
5mRG223_2.cal = saved calibration to file in NanoVNA-App
5mRG223_2 load.s1p 5mRG223_2 open.s1p 5mRG223_2 short.s1p = extracted s1p
from calibration file 5mRG223_2.cal
In the NanoVNA-Saver application there is no problem, the results are as they
should be. I performed the calibration in the same way as in the NanoVNA-App.
I attach the files from NanoVNA-Saver.
short-saver.s1p open-saver.s1p = measurement files.
savercal.cal = saved calibration file.
OPEN: (from Saver)
893250375 1.0043507936078475 0.0072689050591551755
895500250 0.9953096933259286 0.003040661053564544
897750125 1.0026026659671343 0.015398351945836518
900000000 1.0121008164203733 0.010567866395416996
SHORT: (from Saver)
893250375 -0.9975612334870223 -0.007908615765804592
895500250 -1.0023639507804532 -0.01784955334584766
897750125 -1.0043480661900124 -0.004281182690156899
900000000 -0.9964829970674933 -0.00947613963899272
NanoVNA-Saver works ok in my opinion, while something is wrong with
NanoVNA-App. Or I'm doing something wrong there.
I prefer in using NanoVNA-App, so I would prefer that everything is correct
there in App.
(i missed attachment before)
John, yes, i'm shorting it exactly the same in the calibration and for the
plots i sent. My cable is an extension cord, it has a male connector on one
side and a female connector on the other. I did not use a barrel adapter.
|
Hello Roger and John.
I did not write exactly what the s1p files are, sorry.
short.s1p open.s1p = These are the cable measurement files with calibration in the NanoVNA-App application. These are the results of the calibrated cable measurements. Here there should be a point to the left or right of the Smith chart and not what it is.
The other files are calibration files:
5mRG223_2.cal = saved calibration to file in NanoVNA-App
5mRG223_2 load.s1p 5mRG223_2 open.s1p 5mRG223_2 short.s1p = extracted s1p from calibration file 5mRG223_2.cal
In the NanoVNA-Saver application there is no problem, the results are as they should be. I performed the calibration in the same way as in the NanoVNA-App.
I attach the files from NanoVNA-Saver.
short-saver.s1p open-saver.s1p = measurement files.
savercal.cal = saved calibration file.
OPEN: (from Saver)
893250375 1.0043507936078475 0.0072689050591551755
895500250 0.9953096933259286 0.003040661053564544
897750125 1.0026026659671343 0.015398351945836518
900000000 1.0121008164203733 0.010567866395416996
SHORT: (from Saver)
893250375 -0.9975612334870223 -0.007908615765804592
895500250 -1.0023639507804532 -0.01784955334584766
897750125 -1.0043480661900124 -0.004281182690156899
900000000 -0.9964829970674933 -0.00947613963899272
NanoVNA-Saver works ok in my opinion, while something is wrong with NanoVNA-App. Or I'm doing something wrong there.
I prefer in using NanoVNA-App, so I would prefer that everything is correct there in App.
(i missed attachment before)
John, yes, i'm shorting it exactly the same in the calibration and for the plots i sent. My cable is an extension cord, it has a male connector on one side and a female connector on the other. I did not use a barrel adapter.
|
It looks like part of the problem may have to do with how you short the cable. Are you shorting it exactly the same in the calibration and for the plots you sent? (I assume the calibration is done with a male short and a barrel adapter. Is that how you generated the plots?} A barrel adapter could generate the arc you see on the plots.
If they are shorted the same way, how was the short defined to the calibration? If the Short is defined as non-ideal, application of the same Short will generate an arc instead of a dot when measured.
This does not explain the behavior at exactly 900 MHz.
--John Gord
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 12:30 PM, <btomek@...> wrote:
Hello.
If I connect a cable to the NanoVNA and calibrate OSL at the end of that
cable, and measure the same cable, I should get 1 small point to the right of
the Smith chart when the cable is open, or 1 small point to the left when the
cable is shorted.
This happens if I calibrate in the NanoVNA device and use the internal
calibration.
But this does not happen when calibrating in the NanoVNA-App. After
calibrating with the 5-meter RG223 cable in the NanoVNA-App, something goes
wrong. Smith is rotating backwards.
In addition, the last measurement point is significantly different from the
previous ones, and this last point looks correct.
OPEN:
893250375 7,452017665e-01 6,873174310e-01
895500250 7,410393953e-01 6,873663068e-01
897750125 7,427099347e-01 6,907842755e-01
900000000 1,001433492e+00 3,330142936e-03
SHORT:
893250375 -7,893709540e-01 -6,558784842e-01
895500250 -7,710666060e-01 -6,550329924e-01
897750125 -7,579773664e-01 -6,538544297e-01
900000000 -1,000591993e+00 -2,029109281e-03
If I do the calibration without a cable, directly on the SMA socket of the
NanoVNA, the graphs do not show anything disturbing. Probably the error also
exists but is so small that it is invisible.
NanoVNA-App version 1.1.209 +OD12 from OwenDuffy,
NanoVNA-App version 1.1.213 released 2023-01-22 from DiSlord has the same
issue.
NanoVNA-H4 firmware 1.2.19 from DiSlord
Is this a bug or am I doing something wrong?
|
Re: check "Dollar Tree" store. Now Dollar and a Quarter!
Here's another test you might want to try: Bring a small magnet next time and place it near the wire and see if its magnetic. If it is, you may have a little copper and a little iron, (IRON NOT GOOD).
Mike C. Sand Mtn GA
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2/27/2023 2:19 PM, Clyde Lambert wrote: Hello,
I purchased a couple of USB lead wires from Dollar Tree. They lasted about three or four weeks, then the insulation started separateing from the back of the connector housing. Also, The wire size in the $1.25 cables, are much smaller in diamiter than a standard cable.
Again we refer back to the old saying,
You get what you payed for. Cheep price, cheep product. You will never find any type of warranty on a Dollar Tree product.
However, if you are happy with their product and it fits your needs, be my guest.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Clyde KC7BJE
|
Re: check "Dollar Tree" store. Now Dollar and a Quarter!
Hello,
I purchased a couple of USB lead wires from Dollar Tree. They lasted about three or four weeks, then the insulation started separateing from the back of the connector housing. Also, The wire size in the $1.25 cables, are much smaller in diamiter than a standard cable.
Again we refer back to the old saying,
You get what you payed for. Cheep price, cheep product. You will never find any type of warranty on a Dollar Tree product.
However, if you are happy with their product and it fits your needs, be my guest.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Clyde KC7BJE
|
On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 12:30 PM, <btomek@...> wrote:
Hello.
If I connect a cable to the NanoVNA and calibrate OSL at the end of that
cable, and measure the same cable, I should get 1 small point to the right of
the Smith chart when the cable is open, or 1 small point to the left when the
cable is shorted.
There is not a problem/bug with NanoVNA app or Saver. Your plots are not what you should be getting with a calibration. The problem is either with your calibration method, NanoVNA or calibration loads. I suggest you do a cal right at the NanoVNA itself and verify that Short, Open and Load are at the left, middle and right of the Smith chart and that other plots look good as well. Then calibrate at the end of the cable and do the same. You can take screenshots from the NanoVNA app and verify that transferred sweep plots look good there but remember to set the cal option in NanoVNA app to VNA. Feel free to post your screenshots here for comments if you wish. Roger
|
Re: Default com baudrate settings? NanoVNA-H
On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 05:34 PM, Ray, W4BYG wrote:
Having some trouble getting my NanoVNA-H to talk to NanoVNA-App. The app
says it's connected via com 3, but it's not controlling the nano, or
exchanging any data to and from it. I've tried several baud rates, but
no dice.
The baud rate does dot matter on a USB "COM port". I suspect the reason NanoVNA app is not working on your -H is because you are using old firmware. The old firmware used text transfers for data exchange to the PC and if you connect to NanoVNA app nothing happens which is what you are seeing. NanoVNA app requires the binary protocol that DiSlord implemented in the NanoVNA firmware a couple of years ago. Roger
|
Roger Need
Jim Allyn - N7JA
Donald S Brant Jr
Ray, W4BYG
Mike C.
Clyde Lambert
