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Re: NanoVNA-H4 Calibration Loads

 

Okay, I just re-checked and the 50 Ohm load in my calibration kits (I bought an extra one) is the type that doesn't spin the pin with the external nut, but the open and short are of the fixed type, like the Amphenol 132360 terminator. Can anyone recommend a calibration kit that has all the same type of connectors that only spin the external nut?

Thanks,


Jason

On 2020-12-14 8:05 p.m., Jim Lux wrote:
<snip>
It's not that the load wears out, it's that the jack you are attaching it to wears out. The socket for the center pin gets enlarged and deformed. It's also sliding the shield mating surface around as you tighten it.
Loads which spin the center pin and shield are really intended to be "install once" devices. Install it to specified torque, stake it, done.
Or, get yourself some connector savers (jack on one side, plug on the other)
I have a minicircuits ANNE-50L here in front of me, and I can say that the nut is definitely separate from the shield.? Spend the few extra bucks and get a real load designed for mate/demate.? If you want Amphenol, maybe a 901-10106 - I'm not sure from the data sheet or the photo, but it kind of looks like the termination is separate from the nut. (of course, it's a $13 part)

It also looks like the 132360N might be separated.? The drawing for the 132360 isn't clear. And they don't call out a gasket material on the 132360, like they do on the N You could probably invest the $3.13 to get one, look at it, and see.


Re: NanoVNA-H4 Calibration Loads

 

I have a couple of Amphenol 132360 in my parts bin. It looks like the center pin is rigid but it actually moves inside the nut and you can easily rotate the centre pin with tweezers. I think it would still tend "bore out" the female socket if used multiple times. They are rated to 18 MHz with a worst case VSWR of 1.3. But below 1 GHz they are much better than that.

I tested them on my NanoVNA and compared them with the calibration load that comes with the 2.8" NanoVNA-H sold by Hugen. The plots are attached. They are definitely not as good as the -H cal load or the Mini Circuits ANNE series which are 2 to 3 times more expensive.

I also compared the NanoVNA-H cal load with the one shipped with the NanoVNA-H4. The results are attached. My interests lie at LF, HF up to VHF/UHF so I did not make any measurements over 1 GHz. I will be ordering some of the Mini Circuits Anne series to go with my new H4.

Roger


Re: NanoVNA-H4 Calibration Loads

 

On 12/14/20 4:22 PM, Jason Ringas wrote:
The calibration load I received with my unit looks the same; it has the center pin that rotates with the external nut.? So, if it's going to wear out after repeated use, it would be a good idea to have several in stock.? If the Amphenol 132360 is as good or better than the one supplied, it's available locally through Digikey.

Regards,


It's not that the load wears out, it's that the jack you are attaching it to wears out. The socket for the center pin gets enlarged and deformed. It's also sliding the shield mating surface around as you tighten it.

Loads which spin the center pin and shield are really intended to be "install once" devices. Install it to specified torque, stake it, done.

Or, get yourself some connector savers (jack on one side, plug on the other)

I have a minicircuits ANNE-50L here in front of me, and I can say that the nut is definitely separate from the shield.? Spend the few extra bucks and get a real load designed for mate/demate.? If you want Amphenol, maybe a 901-10106 - I'm not sure from the data sheet or the photo, but it kind of looks like the termination is separate from the nut. (of course, it's a $13 part)



It also looks like the 132360N might be separated.? The drawing for the 132360 isn't clear. And they don't call out a gasket material on the 132360, like they do on the N You could probably invest the $3.13 to get one, look at it, and see.


Re: NanoVNA-H4 Calibration Loads

 

The calibration load I received with my unit looks the same; it has the center pin that rotates with the external nut. So, if it's going to wear out after repeated use, it would be a good idea to have several in stock. If the Amphenol 132360 is as good or better than the one supplied, it's available locally through Digikey.

Regards,


Jason

On 2020-12-14 12:29 a.m., John Gord via groups.io wrote:
Jason,
The Amphenol 132360 is rated at 1.3 VSWR (17.7dB return loss), but up to 18GHz. It looks like it has a center pin that rotates with the external nut, so it might be fine for terminating an unused port, but not so good as a repeatedly used standard. (I am basing this on the drawing, I don't have one in hand.)

--John Gord
On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 08:01 PM, Jason Ringas wrote:


Could the Amphenol 132360 be used for the same purpose? How would it
compare to the Mini Circuits item?

Thanks.


Re: Aircraft Antenna Analyzer

 

If you are referring to the AC band of frequencies between roughly 108
through 130 MHz, yes, it covers those frequencies.

Dave - W?LEV

On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 2:07 PM Kent Shaw <kentshaw@...> wrote:

Can this be used as an antenna analyzer for aircraft frequencies?
Suggested firmware? Tips?





--
*Dave - W?LEV*
*Just Let Darwin Work*


Re: NanoVNA-H4 Calibration Loads

 

I'm still waiting for it to be delivered. I ordered it from your
official AliExpress store so it should be the same.
Just to verify: we should use the new data that you shared
in this email: /g/nanovna-users/message/19372


If the calibration piece you received is the same as Roger's, it means
that this NanoVNA-H4 is manufactured by us and you can use the data
provided by Kurt.






Re: Reading PHASE measurements on an 80m dipole with NANO VNA SAVER

 

Hi Barry!
If you want to operate without a tuner, but with resonance at both 3.589MHz and 3.990MHz, you could add an additional dipole (with resonance at 3.990MHz) 284mm apart from your "3.580MHz dipole". Just use som spreathers and without any connection between the two elements, only the one for the lowest frequency is to be feeded...
I made a small program to calculate the distance vs. resonance frequencies, but I think I found the formulae for this in the ARRL Antenna Handbook (don't remember the issue, but it was an old one!)

Best regards
Karl Jan - LA3FY


Aircraft Antenna Analyzer

Kent Shaw
 

Can this be used as an antenna analyzer for aircraft frequencies? Suggested firmware? Tips?


Re: NanoVNA-H4 Calibration Loads

 

On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 10:04 AM, Dragan Milivojevic wrote:


You have been busy behind the scenes :)
So those of us that ordered the H4 in the last
month should use VNA2 coefficients?


If the calibration piece you received is the same as Roger's, it means that this NanoVNA-H4 is manufactured by us and you can use the data provided by Kurt.


Re: NanoVNA-H4 Calibration Loads

 

Jason,
The Amphenol 132360 is rated at 1.3 VSWR (17.7dB return loss), but up to 18GHz. It looks like it has a center pin that rotates with the external nut, so it might be fine for terminating an unused port, but not so good as a repeatedly used standard. (I am basing this on the drawing, I don't have one in hand.)


--John Gord

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 08:01 PM, Jason Ringas wrote:


Could the Amphenol 132360 be used for the same purpose? How would it
compare to the Mini Circuits item?

Thanks.


On 2020-12-13 6:52 p.m., Roger Need via groups.io wrote:
Looking through the old messages I see a post by Alan Wolke (W2AEW) where he
recommends a low-cost Mini Circuits ANNE-50L+ SMA termination as a 50 ohm cal
load replacement for the one provided with the NanoVNA-H4.

/g/nanovna-users/message/14199

The specifications are very good for the ANNE-50L+. The Return Loss (RL)
near DC is 55 dB which is a DC resistance of 49.85 ohms compared to the one
that came with my unit which measures 50.78 ohms and a RL of 42 db at low
frequencies. The ANNE-50L+ RL slowly gets worse as the frequency is increased
but even at 1.5 GHz (max for -H4 with factory firmware) it is 42 dB. My
interests are with HF and UHF/VHF where the RL is no worse than 50 dB.

There is a belief that low frequency RL performance is a trade-off with high
GHz performance. To some degree this is true as you can see in the RL vs
frequency plots I attached for the mini Circuits Anne series of terminators.

From the previous thread on this subject some felt that there was no need to
be concerned about RL to this degree and the supplied cal kit is satisfactory.
That is true if all one is interested in is measuring/tuning antennas for
VSWR and to get a rough idea of impedance. But some of us, like me, are
mainly concerned with measuring components, filters, baluns, circuit S
parameters etc. and we are trying to get the best performance possible from
our NanoVNA. I am amazed how accurate the NanoVNA devices can be with proper
attention to calibration and test fixture construction.

Roger
On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 08:01 PM, Jason Ringas wrote:


Amphenol 132360


Re: NanoVNA-H4 Calibration Loads

 

Could the Amphenol 132360 be used for the same purpose? How would it compare to the Mini Circuits item?

Thanks.

On 2020-12-13 6:52 p.m., Roger Need via groups.io wrote:
Looking through the old messages I see a post by Alan Wolke (W2AEW) where he recommends a low-cost Mini Circuits ANNE-50L+ SMA termination as a 50 ohm cal load replacement for the one provided with the NanoVNA-H4.
/g/nanovna-users/message/14199
The specifications are very good for the ANNE-50L+. The Return Loss (RL) near DC is 55 dB which is a DC resistance of 49.85 ohms compared to the one that came with my unit which measures 50.78 ohms and a RL of 42 db at low frequencies. The ANNE-50L+ RL slowly gets worse as the frequency is increased but even at 1.5 GHz (max for -H4 with factory firmware) it is 42 dB. My interests are with HF and UHF/VHF where the RL is no worse than 50 dB.
There is a belief that low frequency RL performance is a trade-off with high GHz performance. To some degree this is true as you can see in the RL vs frequency plots I attached for the mini Circuits Anne series of terminators.

From the previous thread on this subject some felt that there was no need to be concerned about RL to this degree and the supplied cal kit is satisfactory. That is true if all one is interested in is measuring/tuning antennas for VSWR and to get a rough idea of impedance. But some of us, like me, are mainly concerned with measuring components, filters, baluns, circuit S parameters etc. and we are trying to get the best performance possible from our NanoVNA. I am amazed how accurate the NanoVNA devices can be with proper attention to calibration and test fixture construction.
Roger


Re: Reading PHASE measurements on an 80m dipole with NANO VNA SAVER

 

Barry, Just for emphasis, the Smith Chart is a plot of the reflection coefficient which is the RATIO of the voltage across the transmission line due to the reflected signal to the voltage across the transmission line due to the signal (output of the transmitter) heading up to the antenna ( rho = Vref/Vfwd). The phase angle is the phase between these two voltages at a given point on the transmission line. For impedance, R +X, these are simply overlaid on the chart corresponding to the reflection coefficient at each point. The phase angle for the impedance is the arctan(X/R) and it represents the phase angle between the voltage and the current at each point along the transmission line.


Re: NanoVNA-H4 Calibration Loads

 

You have been busy behind the scenes :)
So those of us that ordered the H4 in the last
month should use VNA2 coefficients?

On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 at 02:47, Hugen <hugen@...> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 01:05 PM, Dragan Milivojevic wrote:


Ask Kurt to characterize these?

On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 05:33, Hugen <hugen@...> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM, Roger Need wrote:


50.78 ohms
The load attached to the H4 has been re-matched to perform better at
higher frequencies. The 49.9 ohm load used earlier performed quite
badly
above 2GHz, but the new and improved load can get S11 below -30dB at
6GHz.
For measurements that require higher frequencies, the new load better.
For
UHF measurement, I suggest you use the load included with H4 for
calibration.





This is the test report provided by Kurt after I provided H4 OSL
accessories and 6GHz VNA to Kurt. It can be seen that the effects of OSL
accessories within 6GHz are satisfactory.
The test information provided in the attachment, OSL is the same as H4, FF
thru has been redesigned and will be provided with our future products.






Re: NanoVNA-H4 Calibration Loads

 

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 01:05 PM, Dragan Milivojevic wrote:


Ask Kurt to characterize these?

On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 05:33, Hugen <hugen@...> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 10:19 AM, Roger Need wrote:


50.78 ohms
The load attached to the H4 has been re-matched to perform better at
higher frequencies. The 49.9 ohm load used earlier performed quite badly
above 2GHz, but the new and improved load can get S11 below -30dB at 6GHz.
For measurements that require higher frequencies, the new load better. For
UHF measurement, I suggest you use the load included with H4 for
calibration.





This is the test report provided by Kurt after I provided H4 OSL accessories and 6GHz VNA to Kurt. It can be seen that the effects of OSL accessories within 6GHz are satisfactory.
The test information provided in the attachment, OSL is the same as H4, FF thru has been redesigned and will be provided with our future products.


Re: NanoVNA-H4 Calibration Loads

 

Looking through the old messages I see a post by Alan Wolke (W2AEW) where he recommends a low-cost Mini Circuits ANNE-50L+ SMA termination as a 50 ohm cal load replacement for the one provided with the NanoVNA-H4.

/g/nanovna-users/message/14199

The specifications are very good for the ANNE-50L+. The Return Loss (RL) near DC is 55 dB which is a DC resistance of 49.85 ohms compared to the one that came with my unit which measures 50.78 ohms and a RL of 42 db at low frequencies. The ANNE-50L+ RL slowly gets worse as the frequency is increased but even at 1.5 GHz (max for -H4 with factory firmware) it is 42 dB. My interests are with HF and UHF/VHF where the RL is no worse than 50 dB.

There is a belief that low frequency RL performance is a trade-off with high GHz performance. To some degree this is true as you can see in the RL vs frequency plots I attached for the mini Circuits Anne series of terminators.

From the previous thread on this subject some felt that there was no need to be concerned about RL to this degree and the supplied cal kit is satisfactory. That is true if all one is interested in is measuring/tuning antennas for VSWR and to get a rough idea of impedance. But some of us, like me, are mainly concerned with measuring components, filters, baluns, circuit S parameters etc. and we are trying to get the best performance possible from our NanoVNA. I am amazed how accurate the NanoVNA devices can be with proper attention to calibration and test fixture construction.

Roger


Re: Nanovna H not read signals #fix #nanovna-h #problem

 

Gud to hear, Junior.

John
VE7KKQ

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 2:42 AM J¨²nior PY2ADA via groups.io <aaj280174=
[email protected]> wrote:

The nanovna returned to work
I reflow the board and everything is normal now
Calibrated and reading my antennas
Thank you all for your help






Re: Reading PHASE measurements on an 80m dipole with NANO VNA SAVER

 

Hallo Barry,

looking at the phase plot you see the phase of the complex reflection faktor and not the phase of impedance Z. Having a perfect match at a certain frequency, the reflection factor is going to 0 and the phase of it can not be determind. As you can see from smith chart, the curve, coming from lower frequencies, hit the center of the chart nearly in a right angel to the real axis. In the phase chart you can see this behavior in a jump of phase from -180¡ã to +180¡ã.

73, Guenter, dk5dn

Am 13.12.2020 um 15:45 schrieb Barry Feierman:

Looking at the PHASE data on a single band 80m center fed dipole.
See the two attachments: one without antenna tuner, one with an antenna tunder

I've had so much fun and have learned so much about antenna parameters with this little Nano VNA device.
One of the parameters that I was not familiar with is to look at the PHASE data, say on an 80m dipole: a 130 ft long center-fed dipole with about 150 feet of low-loss RG213 50-ohm coax.

The antenna on 80m had a natural resonance around 3580 kHz (where I like to operate digi modes on NBEMS nets).
Remember at resonance, the reactance is zero (regardless of the SWR). The PHASE is zero degrees.
But that antenna had an awful SWR at the top of the band, where the phone nets play around 3990 kHz.
At 3990 kHz, the SWR was more like 4:1 and my rig was not happy.
So, how do I QSY to the top of the band with decent SWR without cutting 10 feet off my dipole?


Well, with an antenna "tuner" in the shack, I can null out the reactance of the antenna at 3990 kHz, and get an almost 1:1 SWR on the coax going to the transmitter.
My rig is "happy" at 3990 kHz with that low SWR. But the SWR is still 4:1 on my feed line.
The SWR is only reduced on the coax between the tuner and the rig.
How would a PHASE plot look for my antenna AFTER the RF passes thru my antenna tuner (T network)?

Well, a PHASE plot shows me the original resonance of the 80m dipole around 3600 kHz (without the tuner) and the SWR and RETURN LOSS graphs verify this as well. Now, post antenna tuner, matched to the TOP of the 75m band, there is a second NEW resonance at around 3900 kHz post antenna tuner. Thus, the tuner RE-REFLECTS the reflected wave at 3900 kHz back in the direction of the antenna. Something W2DU Walt Maxwell claimed was how it worked.

Fascinating stuff. The tuner (in my shack) provides a "conjugate" impedance to offset the reactance at the feed line/antenna boundary. Thus an impedance of R + jX (in my shack) combines with an impedance of R - jX in the tuner ==> resulting in an impedance of R + j0 for the radio, with R about 50 ohms. Beautiful.

And, my low-loss RG213 feed line at 4 MHz, even with a 4:1 SWR, has less than a 1 dB "loss" due to the 4:1 SWR.
A 1 dB loss is barely noticeable.
So why worry about broad-band 80m antennas (gazillion articles in QST)?
Just put a decent tuner in your shack and QSY where you want with very little attenuation in low-loss cable (on 80m).
There is also very little "loss" in the tuner itself with decent size inductors and capacitors.

So cool to see all of this concept verified on the NANO VNA PHASE plot using VNA SAVER software (Win 10).

de Barry k3eui
Phila




Re: Setting up NanoVNA-H for First Use

 

Can you add renaming the slots?

On Dec 9, 2020, at 9:48 PM, DiSlord <dislordlive@...> wrote:

Settings for Freq range, trace count, scale and so on, stored to calibration slot after calibration, and load after load from it.

Also you can change setting, and store to slot. Calibrate->Save>Slot N





Reading PHASE measurements on an 80m dipole with NANO VNA SAVER

 

Looking at the PHASE data on a single band 80m center fed dipole.
See the two attachments: one without antenna tuner, one with an antenna tunder

I've had so much fun and have learned so much about antenna parameters with this little Nano VNA device.
One of the parameters that I was not familiar with is to look at the PHASE data, say on an 80m dipole: a 130 ft long center-fed dipole with about 150 feet of low-loss RG213 50-ohm coax.

The antenna on 80m had a natural resonance around 3580 kHz (where I like to operate digi modes on NBEMS nets).
Remember at resonance, the reactance is zero (regardless of the SWR). The PHASE is zero degrees.
But that antenna had an awful SWR at the top of the band, where the phone nets play around 3990 kHz.
At 3990 kHz, the SWR was more like 4:1 and my rig was not happy.
So, how do I QSY to the top of the band with decent SWR without cutting 10 feet off my dipole?


Well, with an antenna "tuner" in the shack, I can null out the reactance of the antenna at 3990 kHz, and get an almost 1:1 SWR on the coax going to the transmitter.
My rig is "happy" at 3990 kHz with that low SWR. But the SWR is still 4:1 on my feed line.
The SWR is only reduced on the coax between the tuner and the rig.
How would a PHASE plot look for my antenna AFTER the RF passes thru my antenna tuner (T network)?

Well, a PHASE plot shows me the original resonance of the 80m dipole around 3600 kHz (without the tuner) and the SWR and RETURN LOSS graphs verify this as well. Now, post antenna tuner, matched to the TOP of the 75m band, there is a second NEW resonance at around 3900 kHz post antenna tuner. Thus, the tuner RE-REFLECTS the reflected wave at 3900 kHz back in the direction of the antenna. Something W2DU Walt Maxwell claimed was how it worked.

Fascinating stuff. The tuner (in my shack) provides a "conjugate" impedance to offset the reactance at the feed line/antenna boundary. Thus an impedance of R + jX (in my shack) combines with an impedance of R - jX in the tuner ==> resulting in an impedance of R + j0 for the radio, with R about 50 ohms. Beautiful.

And, my low-loss RG213 feed line at 4 MHz, even with a 4:1 SWR, has less than a 1 dB "loss" due to the 4:1 SWR.
A 1 dB loss is barely noticeable.
So why worry about broad-band 80m antennas (gazillion articles in QST)?
Just put a decent tuner in your shack and QSY where you want with very little attenuation in low-loss cable (on 80m).
There is also very little "loss" in the tuner itself with decent size inductors and capacitors.

So cool to see all of this concept verified on the NANO VNA PHASE plot using VNA SAVER software (Win 10).

de Barry k3eui
Phila


Re: NanoVNA-H4 Calibration Loads

 

This seems to be true for the V2 Plus4 version, supplied a 50.931 ohm cal load and I was told by OEM is to improve the HF Return Loss. Also did confirm that using a cal load closer to 50 ohms does improve the LF measurements with the V2 Plus4.

Best,

--
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike