Re: Abbreviated documentation for more simplistic tasks?
From: Dick
I am all in favor of a "VNA For Dummies" book !!
73, Dick, W1KSZ
ps: still trying to figure out a Smith Chart
========================================================
Dick,
Such a book was published for the DGS8SAQ VNWA 2/3 Vector Network Analyser.
While it's for different hardware, the basic principles should be the same. You might look out for videos by DGS8SAQ as well.
73,
David GM8ARV
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web:
Email: david-taylor@...
Twitter: @gm8arv
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I too am a prospective buyer and I joined this group hoping to elicit more information. However the volume of argument over esoteric minutiae is putting me off. I agree with the call for simplified documentation to enable users to be able to use the device "out of the box" and for simple tasks. I think many purchasers/users of this item will be hobbyists attracted by the price which is a tiny fraction of that of other commercially available products. Professionals will already be using professional equipment and trying to make this device perform the same seems beyond the scope of it's design parameters.
Tom G6PZZ
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of hamrad45 Sent: 19 October 2019 14:50 To: [email protected]Subject: [nanovna-users] Newbie I recently saw a YouTube video on these devices and I am very interested in getting one. Checking Amazon for instance, there are dozens of sellers of these and prices range from $35 to $85. I have no idea which one to get and which sellers are better. Any info would be greatly appreciated. My YouTube ID is hamrad88. Thanks, Tom Stiles
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I bought one from here... It seems to work OK and and has the shielding fitted.
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On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 05:58 AM, <erik@...> wrote:
would it also be possible to recalculate the sweeped data in the main window
with the new values from the updated calibration standard?
Rune, I also think this is a great idea. Calibration standard tuning is here to stay :>). Calibration tuning works much better in nanoVNA-Saver than the electrical delay tuning in the nanoVNA firmware version 0.2.3. I am not sure what the differences might be. -- Bryan, WA5VAH
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Re: Abbreviated documentation for more simplistic tasks?
Oristo, You make some good points. Perhaps the tutorial assumes the user buys a particular nanoVNA, such as from Hugen. A better solution would be to cover the the more popular variants with section headings that clearly state whether or not the reader will care about that particular section. For example: Did your unit not arrive with a battery included, a rectangular silver lump between the main PC board and the back panel? Then you either must always have power applied through the USB connector when using it, or you will have to obtain and install a battery. Here are potential sources for a battery, and how to install it ..... When you first turn it on, if the screen looks like this photo: <photo> Then instructions for navigating the menus are as follows .... The basic instructions should point to a good document on how to download different firmware. But I'd assume that any firmware will be sufficient for basic use, such as finding the SWR of an antenna or the response of a filter. Or determining the complex impedance of a load. A good beginner's document will indeed be tough to get right, for lots of reasons. I'd think it will have to be an integrated whole written by one author, Supplementary material could be pointers into the wiki, though I'm a bit worried about random people going in and "fixing" wiki pages. Perhaps once the wiki has developed some, we have a group of knowledgeable people evaluate/edit the key material into a User's Guide. Jerry, KE7ER
On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 04:43 AM, Oristo wrote:
Introductions are tough; new owners may be impatient as well as uninformed
and/or misinformed.
NanoVNAs are not all the same; some have battery, calibration kit and already
touch screen and SOLT calibration.
* How many new users want to go thru exhaustive instructions for all?
Some menus and functions change among firmware versions
* Should new user instructions first try to install some latest stable
firmware?
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I recently saw a YouTube video on these devices and I am very interested in getting one. Checking Amazon for instance, there are dozens of sellers of these and prices range from $35 to $85. I have no idea which one to get and which sellers are better. Any info would be greatly appreciated. My YouTube ID is hamrad88.
Thanks,
Tom Stiles
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Re: Abbreviated documentation for more simplistic tasks?
I am all in favor of a "VNA For Dummies" book !! 73, Dick, W1KSZ ps: still trying to figure out a Smith Chart Sent from Outlook<> ________________________________ From: [email protected] < [email protected]> on behalf of YT9TP - Pedja via Groups.Io <yt9tp@...> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2019 6:44 AM To: [email protected] < [email protected]> Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Abbreviated documentation for more simplistic tasks? On 19.10.2019 15:21, Dr. David Kirkby from Kirkby Microwave Ltd wrote: So in summary, I would advise against recommending newcomers look to
YouTube for information. But, if someone who knows make selection and list tutorials that are good that would make a difference, right? -- 73, Pedja YT9TP Checkout:
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Re: Abbreviated documentation for more simplistic tasks?
On 19.10.2019 15:21, Dr. David Kirkby from Kirkby Microwave Ltd wrote: So in summary, I would advise against recommending newcomers look to
YouTube for information. But, if someone who knows make selection and list tutorials that are good that would make a difference, right? -- 73, Pedja YT9TP Checkout:
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Re: Abbreviated documentation for more simplistic tasks?
Dr. David Kirkby from Kirkby Microwave Ltd
On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 05:39, YT9TP - Pedja via Groups.Io <yt9tp= [email protected]> wrote:
On 16.10.2019 19:01, N9KDY wrote:
Not, "Is there?" but what are some of the more simple functions of this
thing which might benefit beginning users, so that as I run into them I
can perhaps write some? That is great idea. Most people need nanoVNA for quite simple tasks.
That said, there are number of useful tutorials on YouTube. Listing them
would also help new users.
--
73,
Pedja YT9TP
Unfortunately, almost all the YouTube videos on VNAs have serious mistakes. One was discussed on here a week or so ago. Another by the same author is flawed too, which I have discussed with him privately. There are numerous videos on making VNA calibration kits which are flawed. There¡¯s a video on how to do a 2-port calibration of an HP 8753 VNA which is flawed. I am personally of the opinion that YouTube is full of people making videos about subjects they have little knowledge of. The unfortunate thing is that these people get lots of thumbs up, and lots of followers. This is one of my favourites for an idiot that has 50500 followers, get 97% thumbs up for his video, yet is fundamentally flawed in numerous ways. We have this idiot with 229,000 subscribers measuring the noise on the 6.5 digit multimeter by looking at how much the digits change when connected to a laboratory power supply. He does not appreciate that a power supply would have far more noise than a 6.5 digit multimeter. So in summary, I would advise against recommending newcomers look to YouTube for information. I would also point out that most hams don¡¯t understand complex mathematics. Most don¡¯t know what resonance is. I would consider a basic introduction should consider VSWR and transmission and reflection from filters. Dave. -- Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd, drkirkby@... Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100 Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892. Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom
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Re: Abbreviated documentation for more simplistic tasks?
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Re: Abbreviated documentation for more simplistic tasks?
On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 18:09, KV5R <kv5r@...> wrote: As a former industrial instrument technician (having calibrated thousands of things), followed by 4 years of writing procedures, I can tell you it isn't easy! as procedures need to be general enough to cover variables in use-cases, but specific enough to be useful. Indeed, as publisher of a rather large how-to web site, I still find users' sending questions of details not adequately covered, even on long and detailed articles I wrote 20 years ago. In theory, a wiki is a very good answer to the very real problems of having one person write and maintain all of the comprehensive documentation for an open source project. The community can do a more efficient job than a single person. For example, I might be interested in the TDR aspects, so I might work on the TDR pages in the wiki. Someone else is interested in the Smith Chart, and she works on those pages. Someone else is interested in hardware mods, and he works on those pages. You get the idea. This is theoretical, because it seems very difficult to convince community members (in any open source project) to maintain the wiki pages they find interesting/in need of work. --buck
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Hello Joe,
it looks good! I hope the software lived up to your expectations, and that
you will enjoy using it in the future :-)
--
Rune / 5Q5R
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On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 at 16:22, Joe F. KC8RKL <yfahrenh@...> wrote: Hello Rune-
Thanks for the fantastic software! I built an 11-pole 500 kHz Low Pass
Chebyshev filter using AADE Filter Design software back in 2010 for use
with a Softrock LF Ensemble II SDR kit. It seemed to work as expected, but
with NanoVNA and NanoVNA-Saver I was finally able to do a 'proper'
analysis- see the attached images. Also, thank you Hugen and edy555 for the
fantastic hardware!
73,
Joe F. KC8RKL
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Hi Erik,
that's a very good point. The data is available in the application to do so
- I think it probably should. :-)
--
Rune / 5Q5R
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On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 at 12:58, <erik@...> wrote: Rune,
When changing values of the calibration standard I assume clicking "apply"
makes them effective even without doing a full recalibration.
If this is correct, would it also be possible to recalculate the sweeped
data in the main window with the new values from the updated calibration
standard?
This will allow quicker search for optimal C0 and L0 values because
otherwise you have to do a sweep to see the effect of the updated C0 and L0
values. Correct?
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Rune,
When changing values of the calibration standard I assume clicking "apply" makes them effective even without doing a full recalibration.
If this is correct, would it also be possible to recalculate the sweeped data in the main window with the new values from the updated calibration standard?
This will allow quicker search for optimal C0 and L0 values because otherwise you have to do a sweep to see the effect of the updated C0 and L0 values. Correct?
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Re: Abbreviated documentation for more simplistic tasks?
Someone new to VNA's and what a complex impedance is will be overwhelmed
if told to check the wiki, all the forum posts, and read some Agilent
document. Introductions are tough; new owners may be impatient as well as uninformed and/or misinformed. NanoVNAs are not all the same; some have battery, calibration kit and already touch screen and SOLT calibration. * How many new users want to go thru exhaustive instructions for all? Some menus and functions change among firmware versions * Should new user instructions first try to install some latest stable firmware? They just want to measure their antenna's SWR (they think).
Or maybe sweep a filter.
A first document should tell them that without having to first wade through a
lot of new material. We need a single document that tells how to charge it, turn it on, configure
it to show SWR
and complex impedance, and then sweep across a range of frequencies.
How to measure that filter.
How to deal with the user interface, what parts of the menu structure they can
ignore,
If ambitious, further sections of this document could give a primer on what a
complex impedance is.
When calibration might be a good idea. Without ensuring calibration for whatever configuration was used for the above, SWR measurements and/or filter sweeps are probably doomed. What a reference plane is.
Maybe set up a few example exercises, using a 100 pF cap and a 100 ohm
resistor so the parts are likely on hand.
Keep the frequency fairly low so it's easy to reproduce.
Show them how to measure these parts in various configurations, and what
results to expect.
Perhaps add a hand wound inductor to the mix.
And what happens when this stuff is put on the end of 25 feet of cheap RG79
coax.
An appendix with links into other documents with a brief description of what
can be found there.
Things like transmission line theory, impedance matching, Smith charts, S
parameters. Several have worked on pieces of the above; seamless integration could be daunting. I see value in an online "Start Here" with e.g. animated GIFs for touch screen navigation and to that end ordered an iPhone tripod adapter
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Re: N male calibration kit
Hi Kurt,
Request to share data to be entered in nano vna saver for n type
calibration kit,
Regards,
Praveena
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On Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 4:19 PM Kurt Poulsen <kurt@...> wrote: Hi All
Some years ago I bought a N male clone calibration kit which is a HP85032E
clone kit. It is not that bad(pretty good) and data are very close to what
can be found on the Agilent homepage.
To day I bumped into the kit again on Aliexpress at the following link
fe1303fMMImSf
<>
<
.
4fe1303fMMImSf&algo_pvid=6d6a9d32-85a8-428f-a09e-b2a6fc1e830e&algo_expid=6d6
a9d32-85a8-428f-a09e-b2a6fc1e830e-1&btsid=afe902d6-210b-40cb-9ac8-21edca20b2
40&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_10,searchweb201603_52
<,searchweb201602_10,searchweb201603_52>
&algo_pvid=6d6a9d32-85a8-428f-a09e-b2a6fc1e830e&algo_expid=6d6a9d32-85a8-428
f-a09e-b2a6fc1e830e-1&btsid=afe902d6-210b-40cb-9ac8-21edca20b240&ws_ab_test=
searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_10,searchweb201603_52
So if you purchase a set I can provided the data to enter in the
NanoVNA-saver and you will be in good shape calibration male N
Kind regards
Kurt
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Re: Can the nanoVNA act as a vector voltmeter?
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Hi Starsekr and others Pay special attention to Part III. Part I and Part II are describing out learning process. The toroide measurements are "handicap'ed" by the wire loop inductance which you only can eliminate by mesurmetn in a closed chamber where the inductance of the wire/rod passing thru the toroide can be subtracted in a spreadsheet calculation. In Part II the is a reference to a HP document which explain the mathematic on page 21 / 22 but the link I here provide is for the new version which is far poorer writing than the "old one" I used when we wrote the articles and which has some errors as well. I also provide a link to an excellent article far better understandable. Ling to where a pdf file can be downloaded for the document "Method for measuring complex permeability at radio frequencies" Link to the document "Measurement of Complex Permeability Using Short Coaxial Line Reflection Method" Have fun Kind regards Kurt -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: [email protected] < [email protected]> P? vegne af Starsekr via Groups.Io Sendt: 19. oktober 2019 09:35 Til: [email protected]Emne: [nanovna-users] Measuring ferrite beads #test-jig W. Reeve, T. Hagen, K. Poulsen published some data from and described their techniques of measuring ferrite beads in "Radio Astronomy Magazine" in 2013. They did a lot of work developing test fixtures and error analysis. You can find their papers at :
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Hi All
Some years ago I bought a N male clone calibration kit which is a HP85032E
clone kit. It is not that bad(pretty good) and data are very close to what
can be found on the Agilent homepage.
To day I bumped into the kit again on Aliexpress at the following link
fe1303fMMImSf
<.
4fe1303fMMImSf&algo_pvid=6d6a9d32-85a8-428f-a09e-b2a6fc1e830e&algo_expid=6d6
a9d32-85a8-428f-a09e-b2a6fc1e830e-1&btsid=afe902d6-210b-40cb-9ac8-21edca20b2
40&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_10,searchweb201603_52>
&algo_pvid=6d6a9d32-85a8-428f-a09e-b2a6fc1e830e&algo_expid=6d6a9d32-85a8-428
f-a09e-b2a6fc1e830e-1&btsid=afe902d6-210b-40cb-9ac8-21edca20b240&ws_ab_test=
searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_10,searchweb201603_52
So if you purchase a set I can provided the data to enter in the
NanoVNA-saver and you will be in good shape calibration male N
Kind regards
Kurt
|
Re: Abbreviated documentation for more simplistic tasks?
I agree....... my NANOvna and my Antuino sit there unused because my old brain and the fact that my medical education didn¡¯t cover electrical or RF engineering I am hopelessly lost in using these neat and ¡°simple¡± devices and life doesn¡¯t have enough days left to live in books learning from scratch all the stuff that has been in this group since the vna came out. I should be happy as my YOuKits FG-01 does just what I need to set up an antenna but these new toys piqued my interest. I want to be part of the ¡°in¡± group but find it is getting more difficult.
Dave K8WPE since 1960
David J. Wilcox K8WPE¡¯s iPad
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On Oct 18, 2019, at 1:09 PM, Jerry Gaffke via Groups.Io <jgaffke@...> wrote:
?An excellent idea.
Someone new to VNA's and what a complex impedance is will be overwhelmed
if told to check the wiki, all the forum posts, and read some Agilent document.
They just want to measure their antenna's SWR (they think).
Or maybe sweep a filter.
A first document should tell them that without having to first wade through a lot of new material.
We need a single document that tells how to charge it, turn it on, configure it to show SWR
and complex impedance, and then sweep across a range of frequencies.
How to measure that filter.
How to deal with the user interface, what parts of the menu structure they can ignore,
If ambitious, further sections of this document could give a primer on what a complex impedance is.
When calibration might be a good idea.
What a reference plane is.
Maybe set up a few example exercises, using a 100 pF cap and a 100 ohm resistor so the parts are likely on hand.
Keep the frequency fairly low so it's easy to reproduce.
Show them how to measure these parts in various configurations, and what results to expect.
Perhaps add a hand wound inductor to the mix.
And what happens when this stuff is put on the end of 25 feet of cheap RG79 coax.
An appendix with links into other documents with a brief description of what can be found there.
Things like transmission line theory, impedance matching, Smith charts, S parameters.
Jerry, KE7ER
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David J Taylor
Dick
YT9TP - Pedja
Oristo
Kurt Poulsen
David Wilcox K8WPE