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Locked Loop Antenna Prices
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Why are loop antennas so expensive (over priced)?? I truly don't get it.? My DITY 1-meter diameter loop with preamp (parts came from my stash) cost me less than $20 to build.? The small 0.5-meter loop which I use for DFing and LF reception was less than that.?? Both are untuned.? Even doubling the cost for new ordered parts for the preamp from Digikey, that's still nowhere near approaching the cost of ready-made receiving loops.? Let's hear the excuses for the expense of ready-made receiving loop antennas.? I don't get it!!! Dave - W?LEV |
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Dave.. not meaning to be rude..
Its silly obvious really..companies need to make a profit, design costs, pay wages. Pay rent, bills, pay mortgage on their house etc.. Thats why amateur radio is called just that..so WE. YOU. Make our own..ie my 1.5kw amp cost me sub $1000.. its better than anything you can buy for $5000 .. Ie do you think fuel costs ?10 a gallon to make..?? No more like ?1.. etc.. Best regards Simon g0zen Ps..i can not build a radio like a ftdx3000 for price yaesu sell at..but antennas YES..ALSO. Alot of people can not/ don¡¯t want to make, so they pay.. |
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You forgot to factor in the cost of labor to design the loop circuit, the PCB and the mechanical items. Then there is the labor cost to procure the parts. And finally the cost to build and test each one. Oh and the cost of returns, marketing, customer correspondences, quality control issues, packaging, book keeping etc.
Its one thing to take an existing design off the web and build something for your own use as a hobbyist. Its quite another thing when you try to run a business and make enough profit to feed your family. I'm not saying that super high prices are always justified, but I can understand why the prices are very much more simply the sum of the parts. 73 Tom |
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OK.? I get it.? But even if I include (my) labor at, say, $50/hour, add another $150. ? When we can buy highly capable vector network analyzers (NANOVNAs) and spectrum analyzers (TinySA) from China for less that $150 (that's top-end quote), there is no excuse for the high price of commercially available receive loops. ? The point I would like to make here is that home brewing can save significant $$ and a lot is learned in the process.? And, I didn't copy anything offered online.? I used my noggin for the design and construction.? At 75 years old, it still works relatively well (but not as well as when I was 35!!!). Dave - W?LEV? On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 9:03 PM Tom Seeger <thomas.b.seeger@...> wrote: You forgot to factor in the cost of labor to design the loop circuit, the PCB and the mechanical items. Then there is the labor cost to procure the parts. And finally the cost to build and test each one. Oh and the cost of returns, marketing, customer correspondences, quality control issues, packaging, book keeping etc. -- Dave - W?LEV Just Let Darwin Work |
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Andy - Arlington TX
Not to mention, production volume just isn't there to use all the mass-production techniques and equipment that keep other types of similarly complex products inexpensive.
Lower production volume also means there are fewer sales to amortize fixed costs across, like product development, marketing, etc., so those costs are much more per unit than similar, higher volume products. I've worked on product development efforts where the magic production quantity to reach was when it became cheaper to replace the product than repair it. Beyond that point, the "repair" volume adds to the production volume, further reducing per-unit production cost. And, there's no more (or vastly reduced) costs associated with diagnosis and repair. Alas, very few of our products reached that volume. -- Andy - Arlington TX |
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I've been fortunate to be able to have the means to support others in the hobby when they build stuff to try and supplement their income. For one, I'm single. :^) I recently bought the new version of Wellbrook's ALA1530LN. I'm still in the testing phase to see if it was worth the purchase. (Actually I'm about to send another message to the group here with some questions related to that.) Sure I could have built my own, but the DYI bug hasn't bitten me as hard I guess. I just like doing the "buy local" thing. (Except in the case of the Wellbrook it was clear across the pond hi!) Mark in the land of Goshen, IN, USA KC9DOC |
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýDave, ? How
do you test your 50 Buck loop amplifier and what performance parameters does it
have? ? 73 ? Andrew???
G8LUG
_._,_._,_ |
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Dave,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Maybe you would like to share the schematic for your $20 loop amp with the group, so those that are builders can build one for their use. Everett N4CY On Sunday, January 9, 2022, 3:10 PM, W0LEV <davearea51a@...> wrote:
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¿ªÔÆÌåÓýYou are still not getting it Dave, despite having business practices explained to you more than once. You have certainly not factored in your own costs in getting educated through to the point where you can build something acceptable to yourself. I doubt Mr Ikin and others are relying on cheap Chinese test gear either. ? Let me give you another perspective. Not everyone has these skills. I had some skills but a disability leaves me unable to solder and to wield other tools with any degree of fitness, let alone safety. Therefore I have to buy certain items of equipment and pay what I need to, grateful that someone has designed, built and warranted it for me. ? There are many sharks in our waters producing sub-standard products for the unwary. Please share with the group your test methodology and model numbers of test equipment. Show us your test results so we may compare your product with others available to us, better still, have one of your amps independently tested, then we, the buyers, can determine what we would buy or give a wide berth too. It is not for you to sit as judge and jury on the various products offered to us. The community decides that by choosing to buy. Bad products and manufacturers don¡¯t last long in this hypercritical market place. ? Tom G6PZZ ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of W0LEV
Sent: 09 January 2022 21:10 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [loopantennas] GENERAL QUESTION ? OK.? I get it.? But even if I include (my) labor at, say, $50/hour, add another $150. ? When we can buy highly capable vector network analyzers (NANOVNAs) and spectrum analyzers (TinySA) from China for less that $150 (that's top-end quote), there is no excuse for the high price of commercially available receive loops. ? ? The point I would like to make here is that home brewing can save significant $$ and a lot is learned in the process.? And, I didn't copy anything offered online.? I used my noggin for the design and construction.? At 75 years old, it still works relatively well (but not as well as when I was 35!!!). ? Dave - W?LEV? ? ? ? On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 9:03 PM Tom Seeger <thomas.b.seeger@...> wrote:
Dave - W?LEV Just Let Darwin Work ? |
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On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 07:31 PM, W0LEV wrote:
Even doubling the cost for new ordered parts for the preamp from Digikey, that's still nowhere near approaching the cost of ready-made receiving loops.? Let's hear the excuses for the expense of ready-made receiving loop antennas.? I don't get it!!!This is a common theme in amateur radio circles too, if you have ever been to a hamfest or similar you will often hear "I could make one of those for a fraction of the price". Amateur constructors, building stuff in their shack and? selling a few items for pocket money don't have to follow the same rules as proper commercial enterprises. It all seems very easy, until you actually try to make real money, and are confronted with paying for test kit, tools & materials, consumables, taxes, insurance, legal and accountancy fees, advertising, trade shows and direct sales events, rental of premises, power, heating water, vehicles (inc. servicing, running costs, and replacement), employees, shipping, returns, customer support, repairs, R&D on new products, illness, holidays, leave etc... the list just goes on and on. From my experience, providing after sales customer support in a predominantly 'hobby' market is the one thing that can really sap your profits (and willpower) more than almost anything else, as it absorbs valuable time and effort that could be much better utilised. Regards, Martin |
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I'm reminded of when a friend and I were watching Norm Abrams build something absolutely beautiful like a trestle table with free lumber scavenged from a barn being torn down.
She turned to me and said "In his half-million dollar workshop". In any case... enough people choose to buy. For some of us, building is more than half the fun. For others, it is DXLing that is more than half the fun. -- Steve Greenfield AE7HD |
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ED MONTAIGNE
Dave, I am 79 and my wife is 77 and we are both Amateur Radio Operators and enjoy building antennas more than we do talking on HF. I have been building antennas since I was 14 and will never get over the joy of having it work. Sometimes they don't work the on the first try, but solving the problem and seeing it work is part of the fun and what a great learning experience. We look at an antenna we are using (that we built) and think, "What can? do to make it better". We too would love to see simple diagram or specs on your loop. 73's and look out for Darwin ites. Mr Ed? On Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 9:57 AM Steven Greenfield AE7HD via <alienrelics=[email protected]> wrote: I'm reminded of when a friend and I were watching Norm Abrams build something absolutely beautiful like a trestle table with free lumber scavenged from a barn being torn down. |
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Yes, I do get it.? But the DIY option is always less expensive.? I am fortunate in that I've been home brewing since my early SWL days at age 8 and upward.? All my test equipment is HP or Agilent.? I have one Rigol spectrum analyzer, but the rest is professional equipment.? It's no low-end error-prone equipment (MFJ "antenna analyzers" come to mind) that graces most ham shacks, if they even have measuring equipment other than SWR? and use them with no real understanding of what's really going on.? STILL, the vast majority of hams judge the "goodness" of an antenna by the SWR they measure.? I always point out that a dummy load exhibits a really low SWR, but doesn't radiate too well. Yes, I've worked in the design end of the commercial world of electronic "widgets" to well understand.? I really do.? But when I see something that I believe I "need" and the price is too high, the first thing I ask myself is how can I design and build it myself.? Or maybe first, do I really "need" it?? In evaluating my DIY common mode chokes above and beyond what the HP 8753C could tell me, I needed something to indicate the balance between the two conductors to my open wire feeders - basically the balance at the DM output of the chokes at power.? It didn't take long to cook a plan in the gray matter and visit the electronic parts stash in the cabinet and garage. As far as transmitting loops are concerned, I went through the 2 kV rated variable capacitors pretty rapidly even at 100-watts.? Living at a mile high doesn't help.? I finally bought at a ham swap meet a 12 kV vacuum cap at max C of 1200 pF.? Won't quite make 160-meters, but close.? Need a shunt fixed cap that will take the voltage and current.? Dave - W?LEV ? ?? ? ? On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 9:05 AM Tom Crosbie G6PZZ <tom@...> wrote:
-- Dave - W?LEV Just Let Darwin Work |
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Tomasz Lemiech
On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 1:55 AM W0LEV <davearea51a@...> wrote:
So to sum up: building a DIY loop is really cheap, once you've already shed 1000 commercial loop-equivalents in cash to gather all the necessary equipment and build an electronics shop in advance. Some are in need of their own brewery. Others just want to have a pint or two. Tomasz Lemiech |
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So to sum up: building a DIY loop is really cheap, once you've already shed 1000 commercial loop-equivalents in cash to gather all the necessary equipment and build an electronics shop in advance
My shop is NanoVNA ($60), TinySA ($80), DVM ($20), soldering station ($80) and some other tools, programmable PSU ($30), bunch of parts accumulated over the years (a few hundreds of $). The Rigol scope is $300, but I rarely use it to debug the antenna stuff. I don't count the computers, and the software is free, thanks to Open Source. So the shop cost is less than 2-3 commercial high end loops :) The costly part is my time, but I have fun doing these projects and learning new stuff, so this counts as a benefit, not a cost. Luckily, I have a job that pays the bills, so I can release my hobby designs to public domain. I understand that not everybody is in such situation. 73, Mike AF7KR |
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Thanks, Mike.? I'm with you.? Dave - W?LEV On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 4:40 PM vbifyz <3ym3ym@...> wrote: So to sum up: building a DIY loop is really cheap, once you've already shed 1000 commercial loop-equivalents in cash to gather all the necessary equipment and build an electronics shop in advance -- Dave - W?LEV Just Let Darwin Work |
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The primary use of my transmit loop is on 40 meters.? Once in a great while, it gets tuned for 80-meters.? 160-meters is only an academic exercise.? I use it during lightning season to get on the air on 40-CW when the hot clouds threaten.? I don't dare connect the 480-foot doublet under those situations.? It's a 1-meter diameter 1/2-inch copper tubing loop done in the traditional manner - nothing special. ? The coupling small loop is more of an ellipse instead of a circle for best match to the system.? The variable capacitor is mounted off center.? The break in the loop in symetrical to the feed.? In this picture, I have yet to replace the variablc C with the vacuum C. Dave - W?LEV On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 2:12 PM Simon <ohhellnotagain@...> wrote: Hi Dave -- Dave - W?LEV Just Let Darwin Work |
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Hi Dave
Ok 1m dia.. in which case I would not even bother to try it on 160.. bandwidth will be soooo small it will be nigh on impossible to tune.( let alone the efficiency) .I suspect 80 is equally as ¡°fun¡± to tune..( not far off it anyway.) I would just make a bigger one for 80-160.. for those ¡°stormy days¡± Simon |
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Yes, I have a fellow ham who is making a 4-meter diameter transmitting loop for 160.? He has yet to make a contact.? He is building it to be taken apart for mountain topping.? I've warned him about the losses contributed by even hundredths of an ohm of DC resistance due to the joints, let alone tenths of an ohm.? But he insists it will be "portable".? He has already faced the fact that he will need a vacuum capacitor to take the voltage and current. I've got too many projects going at once.? At present, my 160-meter efforts are going into a short vertical, the bgeginnings of which are under 9-inches of snow at present.? I don't dare put too much vertical height in the air as we are in a lightning prone area along the Front Range of the Rockies.? Dave - W?LEV On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 6:24 PM Simon <ohhellnotagain@...> wrote: Hi Dave -- Dave - W?LEV Just Let Darwin Work |
Everett N4CY
Steven Greenfield AE7HD