Keyboard Shortcuts
ctrl + shift + ? :
Show all keyboard shortcuts
ctrl + g :
Navigate to a group
ctrl + shift + f :
Find
ctrl + / :
Quick actions
esc to dismiss
Likes
- Loopantennas
- Messages
Search
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
Rob Moore
Hi Dave,
Just got home. I wasn't planning on shorting the aluminum tube to the center condicutor of the cable. Just to the shell of the BNC connector, which doesn't have any power on it. Thanks for the intruction information. I bought my ALA-1530 used and it didn't come with any instructions. Rob --- In loopantennas@..., "n2chi" <davidgriffin@...> wrote: coax has DC voltage on it (for the circuitry up at the loop base)sodon't short it out. Also, it does say to NOT ground the coax betweenthe loop and the downstream Antenna Interface box "as it may introducenoise." Nigel: Not to worry about my using a stake; my wife won't let meplay with anything sharp any more. |
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
n2chi
Rob,
I just found my 1530 instruction sheet and it reminded me that the coax has DC voltage on it (for the circuitry up at the loop base)so don't short it out. Also, it does say to NOT ground the coax between the loop and the downstream Antenna Interface box "as it may introduce noise." Nigel: Not to worry about my using a stake; my wife won't let me play with anything sharp any more. Dave --- In loopantennas@..., "Rob Moore" <rmoore5@...> wrote: NOT togrounded. I seem to remember the installation materials saying NOT toground that section of coax. So shorting the aluminmum of the loop whatthe shell of the BNC might not yield a ground. But then, that would thenlocation toyou're referring to? gotitwon't act like one when grounded. If it's not the antenna, wouldtherebe any noticeable effect of grounding it? Please don't make me shieldoutand drive a stake in the ground...... in(akathe outer conductor)is the actual antenna. This is the manner lowwhichshielded loops function at their operating frequency. At very currentsfrequencies where most electrical field noise exists, the andcancelcurrentsvoltages of both arms of the outer conductor are equal in bothpotential andpolarity (provided the gap is at the exact centre), with thebeingzero atthe same on both surfaces of the outer conductor material andthegap. The currents that are coupled to the inner conductor(s)so thatbottomthere is no net noise current delivered to the receiver. |
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
Rob Moore
Hi Dave,
Well the shield is grounded by the time it gets into the house but maybe I'll try it both ways. That may take a little longer. Rob --- In loopantennas@..., "n2chi" <davidgriffin@...> wrote: location to itground the shield and see what happens? If it's the antenna, thenoutwon't act like one when grounded. If it's not the antenna, wouldtherebe any noticeable effect of grounding it? Please don't make me gotcanceland drive a stake in the ground......(aka |
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
Fraser
Ref. Is it shoelded or not ?
Didn't we read earlier in the groups messages that Patrick had been kind enough to dismantle an ALA1530 ? Surely if Patrick says his dismantled ALA1530 had connections from the amp input to the aluminium loop we can take it that the ALA1530 is not shielded ? Fraser |
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
n2chi
Hi Rob,
I think I'd try something I'm more sure is grounded. If I remember correctly, the coax shield between the loop and the electronics is NOT grounded. I seem to remember the installation materials saying NOT to ground that section of coax. So shorting the aluminmum of the loop to the shell of the BNC might not yield a ground. But then, that would probably short out the antenna? Dave --- In loopantennas@..., "Rob Moore" <rmoore5@...> wrote: it outwon't act like one when grounded. If it's not the antenna, wouldtherebe any noticeable effect of grounding it? Please don't make me got canceland drive a stake in the ground......(aka so thatbottomthere is no net noise current delivered to the receiver. |
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
where it connects to the amp.Oh. That's very different. Never mind. Chris ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications / extinct stuff, anyhow? / \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY _ |/ Principal Engineer oo\ Sonoran Radio Research (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 \ \ / \ \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 . ( ) \ '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@... | | | | \ '. c__; c__; '-..'>.__ Graphics by Loek Frederiks |
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
Rob Moore
I have one up a tree and can try that tonight. I assume that
grounding the aluminum loop to the shell of the BNC connector is what you're referring to? Rob --- In loopantennas@..., "n2chi" <davidgriffin@...> wrote: there be any noticeable effect of grounding it? Please don't make me got out(aka whichthe outer conductor)is the actual antenna. This is the manner in andshielded loops function at their operating frequency. At very low currentsvoltages of both arms of the outer conductor are equal in bothpotential andpolarity (provided the gap is at the exact centre), with the beingzero atthe same on both surfaces of the outer conductor material and thebottomgap. The currents that are coupled to the inner conductor(s) cancelso thatthere is no net noise current delivered to the receiver. whereit connects to the amp. |
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
n2chi
Does someone have a Wellbrook loop in a convenient enough location to
ground the shield and see what happens? If it's the antenna, then it won't act like one when grounded. If it's not the antenna, would there be any noticeable effect of grounding it? Please don't make me got out and drive a stake in the ground...... Dave --- In loopantennas@..., gandalfg8@... wrote: potential and polarity (provided the gap is at the exact centre), with the currentsbeing the same on both surfaces of the outer conductor material and zero atthe gap. The currents that are coupled to the inner conductor(s) cancelso that there is no net noise current delivered to the receiver.where it connects to the amp. |
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
Rob Moore
Nigel is correct. The Wellbrook isn't a shielded loop antenna.
There are actually two wires that run into each leg aluminum loop that provides structural support for the antenna and come out the other side of the loop. I believe (but haven't disassembled it this far because it wouldn't be of much use after that) that the entire loop is filled with the potting compound. That's why you don't hear any wires rattling. The Wellbrook is a very well constructed, fairly straightforward loop, which relies on an excellent balanced preamp design and careful construction to minimize noise pickup. Rob --- In loopantennas@..., gandalfg8@... wrote: potential and polarity (provided the gap is at the exact centre), with thecurrents being the same on both surfaces of the outer conductor material and zeroat the gap. The currents that are coupled to the inner conductor(s) cancelso that there is no net noise current delivered to the receiver.bottom where it connects to the amp. |
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
Patrick Reynaert
hi Rob,
regarding the ALA1530: there is indeed a wire that from the PCB into the Al tube, but this is connected with the tube by a small screw, about 2cm away from the plastic enclosure. So, in my opinion, the Al tube is the actual antenna. Best regards, Patrick Rob Moore <rmoore5@...> wrote: Patrick, You are wrong that the Aluminim is the actual antenna. There are wires inside of it and it is only there as a mechanical support. I know this because I've removed the potting material from one of these to find out. This can also be verified by examining the 5030. It is a semi-ridgid version of the ALA-1530. Rob This--- In loopantennas@..., Patrick Reynaert wrote: actual antenna. electrical noise at very low frequecies, i.e. at frequencies where the shield thickness is less than the skin depth. At higher frequencies, where the shield is thicker than the skin depth, the shield only helps to get a better balance, and hence a better 'null' in the reception pattern. shielded? I am guessing maybe not, since its performance still seems to be good into the VHF range.the Links rather than uploading the file. and GIF into Photos. Please convert BMP or TIF to JPG or GIF before uploading.
If you've got links, post them in the Links section! Post files here. If the file comes from a website, please put it in the Links rather than uploading the file. You can now view images at higher resolution in Photos. Upload JPG and GIF into Photos. Please convert BMP or TIF to JPG or GIF before uploading. And please trim all this when replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. |
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
Patrick is absolutely correct in stating that the aluminum shield (aka
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
the outer conductor)is the actual antenna. This is the manner in which shielded loops function at their operating frequency. At very low frequencies where most electrical field noise exists, the currents and voltages of both arms of the outer conductor are equal in both potential and polarity (provided the gap is at the exact centre), with the currents being the same on both surfaces of the outer conductor material and zero at the gap. The currents that are coupled to the inner conductor(s) cancel so that there is no net noise current delivered to the receiver. At operating frequencies, the potentials of the two arms of the outer conductor are equal and opposite (again provided that the gap is at the exact centre). The currents at the gap are equal and opposite. These currents flow around the end of the arms at the gap, resulting in no net current at the gap but at the same time resulting in equal and opposite currents on the inner surface of the shield. These then couple to the inner conductor(s) and subsequently couple to the receiver. The frequency at which the outer conductor goes from being an electrostatic shield to being the actual antenna depends on the conductivity and thickness of the material. In general, the point is somehwere in the vicinity of ten to twnety skin depths, depending on whose evaluation you are using. Chris ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications / extinct stuff, anyhow? / \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY _ |/ Principal Engineer oo\ Sonoran Radio Research (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 \ \ / \ \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 . ( ) \ '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@... | | | | \ '. c__; c__; '-..'>.__ Graphics by Loek Frederiks ----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Moore" <rmoore5@...> To: <loopantennas@...> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:18 PM Subject: [loopantennas] Re: Wellbrook construction Patrick, You are wrong that the Aluminim is the actual antenna. There are wires inside of it and it is only there as a mechanical support. I know this because I've removed the potting material from one of these to find out. This can also be verified by examining the 5030. It is a semi-ridgid version of the ALA-1530. Rob This--- In loopantennas@..., Patrick Reynaert <preynaert@...> wrote:
|
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
Rob Moore
Patrick,
You are wrong that the Aluminim is the actual antenna. There are wires inside of it and it is only there as a mechanical support. I know this because I've removed the potting material from one of these to find out. This can also be verified by examining the 5030. It is a semi-ridgid version of the ALA-1530. Rob This--- In loopantennas@..., Patrick Reynaert <preynaert@...> wrote: actual antenna. electrical noise at very low frequecies, i.e. at frequencies where the shield thickness is less than the skin depth. At higher frequencies, where the shield is thicker than the skin depth, the shield only helps to get a better balance, and hence a better 'null' in the reception pattern. shielded? I am guessing maybe not, since its performance still seems to be good into the VHF range.the Links rather than uploading the file. and GIF into Photos. Please convert BMP or TIF to JPG or GIF before uploading.
|
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
In a message dated 15/05/2007 00:04:14 GMT Daylight Time,
fraser.castle@... writes: Ref. Is it shoelded or not ? Didn't we read earlier in the groups messages that Patrick had been kind enough to dismantle an ALA1530 ? Surely if Patrick says his dismantled ALA1530 had connections from the amp input to the aluminium loop we can take it that the ALA1530 is not shielded ? ------------------------ I think that's a reasonable assumption:-) |
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
In a message dated 14/05/2007 22:20:39 GMT Daylight Time,
davidgriffin@... writes: Does someone have a Wellbrook loop in a convenient enough location to ground the shield and see what happens? If it's the antenna, then it won't act like one when grounded. If it's not the antenna, would there be any noticeable effect of grounding it? Please don't make me got out and drive a stake in the ground...... Dave ------------------------------ Interesting question, but "no" Having said that, grounding the plastic loop on my 5030 probably wouldn't prove very much:-) Go on, go drive that stake...... it's the obvious way of proving it, one way or another, and...... since you thought of it first.............:-) regards Nigel GM8PZR |
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
Patrick Reynaert
Hi,
the wellbrook is not a shielded antenna, the Aluminium tube is the actual antenna. Shielding (with a gap of course) a loop only shields it from electrical noise at very low frequecies, i.e. at frequencies where the shield thickness is less than the skin depth. At higher frequencies, where the shield is thicker than the skin depth, the shield only helps to get a better balance, and hence a better 'null' in the reception pattern. Patrick. Hue Miller <kargo_cult@...> wrote: Wellbrook antenna: is the loop shielded? I am guessing maybe not, since its performance still seems to be good into the VHF range. IF not - will shielding such a loop, be worthwhile to diminish electrical field noise? I am thinking a "Hula Hoop" toy might be a basis for a homemade loop. Cut open the loop, feed wire thru it, and glue back together. Maybe with aluminum foil wrapped around the thing, for shielding, and amplifier module attached right to the loop. WL1030 page - i very much look forward to reading the material there. I just wonder why it is necessary to "register". What is the thinking behind that? -Hue Miller If you've got links, post them in the Links section! Post files here. If the file comes from a website, please put it in the Links rather than uploading the file. You can now view images at higher resolution in Photos. Upload JPG and GIF into Photos. Please convert BMP or TIF to JPG or GIF before uploading. And please trim all this when replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. |
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
In a message dated 14/05/2007 21:08:36 GMT Daylight Time,
christrask@... writes: Patrick is absolutely correct in stating that the aluminum shield (aka the outer conductor)is the actual antenna. This is the manner in which shielded loops function at their operating frequency. At very low frequencies where most electrical field noise exists, the currents and voltages of both arms of the outer conductor are equal in both potential and polarity (provided the gap is at the exact centre), with the currents being the same on both surfaces of the outer conductor material and zero at the gap. The currents that are coupled to the inner conductor(s) cancel so that there is no net noise current delivered to the receiver. ------------------------------------- Hi Chris The Wellbrook isn't a shielded loop antenna. There no gap in this loop, other than inside the housing at the bottom where it connects to the amp. regards Nigel GM8PZR |
Locked
Re: Wellbrook construction
In a message dated 14/05/2007 20:21:50 GMT Daylight Time,
rmoore5@... writes: You are wrong that the Aluminim is the actual antenna. There are wires inside of it and it is only there as a mechanical support. I know this because I've removed the potting material from one of these to find out. This can also be verified by examining the 5030. It is a semi-ridgid version of the ALA-1530. Rob ---------------------------------- Hi Rob Are you sure re the 1530? Certainly it's true for the 5030 as that's got a plastic tube, and I can hear the wire rattling around inside it as I'd expect, but I've never heard anything rattling inside the 1530. I would expect that you'd see wires going to the potted amp, even if the tube is the antenna, as the tube will likely mechanically terminate inside the plastic entry tubes on the electrical junction box used as a housing with perhaps a screw and solder tag connection at the ends. regards Nigel GM8PZR |
Locked
Re: RF Systems DX-One Pro MkII - Bi-Loop or not ?
Fraser
--- In loopantennas@..., "Steve Ratzlaff"
<steveratz@...> wrote: DX-1 Pro, and the receiver coupler/supply.circuit is an exact clone of the old Ralph Burhans circuit he published backin the 1980's, using 100% negative feedback.(SNIPPED) Hi Steve, Many thanks for that superb description of the DX-1. You have made my day as I have been scratching my head about this antennas design for ages. When I X-Rayed the mast section it had four wires interconnecting the various 'loop' arms but I couldn't be sure how they were connected. They certainly are not all wired in parallel in the MKII. I was wondering if they had wired the 'loop' arms in series to effectively compress a long whip into a small space. This bit of the design still eludes me. As for the amplifier... your information is invaluable. The MKII amplifier is stated as providing 10dB gain whereas the MKI was spec'ed at 6dB gain. The issue of input capacitance is very interesting indeed. I have some NOS Motorola high power jFETs (or tFETS ?) that were used in some Watkins Johnson amplifiers that I maintained. I suspect that these will also exhibit higher than desirable input capacitance so I will re think using them in any antenna designs that I build. Thank you for your excellent help with this question Steve. It does, however, lead me to wonder about RF Systems performance claims. RFS make the MLB1 and this has caused much discussion both positive and negative. I like their AA-150 that was built for the Lowe HF-150 but it may be no better than any other active whip on the market. It is well built though. The DX-10 is basically an AA-150 in a different shell. As for the passive HF magnetic whips and some of their other exotic designs, I am not sure that these are not just well engineered 'snake oil' antennas. I own an RF Systems DX-500 which is beautifully constructed and claims to work upto 500 MHz. I have found that it needs an excellent groundplane for HF work and is really just an RF probe (it has an extremely short active element). Oh well.... it looks like the DX-1 is just an exotic & expensive active whip pretending to be a loop then :-( Thanks to everyone for their input on this topic. I'm off to start saving for a Wellbrook ALA1530+. Fraser |
Locked
Re: RF Systems DX-One Pro MkII - Bi-Loop or not ?
Steve Ratzlaff
As a postscript to the RF Systems DX-1 Pro active whip antenna comments I made, WRTH did an extensive review of various active whip antennas perhaps 5 or more years ago. The DX-1 Pro was clearly identified as an active whip antenna then, and was one of the antennas reviewed--it had a good review rating. The newer "MK II" apparently is a recent variation of that same active whip antenna. Perhaps the addition of a common-mode choke on the output of the whipamp is the only change, as I suggested in my previous post.
73, Steve |
Locked
Re: RF Systems DX-One Pro MkII - Bi-Loop or not ?
Steve Ratzlaff
Hi,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I'm familiar with the circuits used in the head end of the older DX-1 Pro, and the receiver coupler/supply. The head end is a basic high-impedance active whip antenna. The circuit is an exact clone of the old Ralph Burhans circuit he published back in the 1980's, using 100% negative feedback. That would account for one of the transformers noted by Fraser. The other transformer is very likely a common-mode choke on the output. My older unit did not have that common-mode choke; it only had the one feedback transformer. I'm guessing the "MK II" means the common-mode choke addition was the only improvement from the original DX-1 Pro. The active power jfet device RF Systems is using has significant gate-source capacitance, which acts to shunt signals to ground the higher you go in frequency, and loss in sensitivity begins from about 12 MHz and up. They devised the very elaborate "egg beater" cage whip antenna in an attempt to improve the antenna capacitance, to offset the active device shunting effect. The bit in the advertising about reducing polarization effects is purely smoke and mirrors nonsense, and has no effect whatsoever on various signal polarization being received better with that cage whip antenna. There is no voltage gain for this active amplifier circuit, only overall loss from input to output. The receiver coupler's "+10dB" input position is also a piece of fiction. That position directly couples the antenna's output through the various other parts (switchable BCB filter and dual-output splitter) to the output to the receiver. The other positions, "0" to "-40" are all switched attenuators before going to the BCB filter and splitter, with the "0" position being either -3 dB or -6 dB attenuation ( I forget which). The BCB filter is not designed for the NA BCB frequency range but for Europe. The active device is very similar to the Crystalonics CP650 power jfet device that Dallas Lankford first discovered would work well in the old Burhans active whip circuit--it too has significant gate-source input capacitance. (This is the device the AMRAD active whip is using; they got their circuit from Dallas Lankford, who was never given proper credit in the article.) I have been building and experimenting with active whip antennas for a number of years now; I've tested just about every commercially available antenna on the market, from either a hobby standpoint or from when my old company was building active antennas as a Defense Contractor. The DX-1 Pro is the only commercially available antenna that I've tried that I would recommend, despite its increasing loss of sensitivity as you go up the HF frequency range. However, it's very expensive for most hobbyists to even consider purchasing one. And any active antenna performs only as well as the local noise environment it's used in, and of course must be used externally from any dwelling with AC power. The farther from AC power you can mount such an antenna, either horizontal or vertical distance from AC power, the better it can work without being limited by local AC noise. 73, Steve ----- Original Message -----
From: "Fraser" <fraser.castle@...> To: <loopantennas@...> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 4:29 AM Subject: [loopantennas] RF Systems DX-One Pro MkII - Bi-Loop or not ? Hi All, |
to navigate to use esc to dismiss