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Locked Timetabling #timetable-tool

 

Sorry, but there needs to be a bit of explanation before I ask my question....
?
I am fascinated by the operational aspects of railways. My layout is a minute "might have been" fraction of the North of Scotland.? I have spent hours (probably days) compiling a timetable which fits my little bit into the general timetable for 1969 for the area. My timetable covers everything from Inverness northwards and links south.? To validate a timetable you need a trains graph to ensure crossings (its a single line) occur properly. For me that has been a pencil and paper activity - until now. It's quite an art form.
?
It would be fun (well I think so!) to use the new Timtable system to input and maintain my whole timetable BUT of course none of it is "real" (in the sense of a model - most of it is real and still in place) and it's in miles (and chains - not a US measurement?) between stations and I don't need "scale" speeds I need real ones.
?
Is it likely to be possible? It would be a lot of work before it would be possible to test anything - so is there anyone out there who can give me any enouragement or say it won't work?
 

Iain,

I've used the graphing feature of Excel to create and manage timetable
construction. The graphs are the line trace with sloping lines for train
movements and horizontal when a train is at a station or switching a town. I
derived my file from the OpSig group examples years ago. Mine starts with a
normal timetable form, but a few more fields exist (not in a printed
version) to adjust the times. Things like a train variable for how much
faster or slower than the 'standard' for track speed. Next is dwell times
for how long a train waits at a station before leaving. And of course, the
standard time between stations.

Yes the results are the graph where you look for the case of line crossing,
but not at a station. I've not had time to explore the new tool being added
to JMRI to know how far it goes. I'll have to take a look at it to update my
'what's new' part of my clinic.

-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
www.jmri.org
www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org
www.cnymod.com
www.syracusemodelrr.org
 

Thanks Ken.

My timetable is in a spreadsheet format, but I have never worked out how to use that data to produce a graph of upward and downward lines for the various trains. Station dwell times are built into my spreadsheet as are "standard" speeds.

All my crossings are at stations or defined loops (some auto some controlled by a signal box).

It is laborious - but (to me) a very interesting exercise. The graph is especially useful when you need to thread a new train through the existing pattern.? How they did that in the early days with little to help them but pencil and paper is quite astounding.
 

Iain,

The Timetable tool can do prototype timetable calculations.

Set the scale to 1 using the Custom scale selection, the fast clock speed to 1, and enter the distances in feet (or meters if metric is selected). A mile is 5280 feet.


Dave Sand

On Dec 12, 2018, at 6:17 AM, Iain <iain@...> wrote:

Sorry, but there needs to be a bit of explanation before I ask my question....

I am fascinated by the operational aspects of railways. My layout is a minute "might have been" fraction of the North of Scotland. I have spent hours (probably days) compiling a timetable which fits my little bit into the general timetable for 1969 for the area. My timetable covers everything from Inverness northwards and links south. To validate a timetable you need a trains graph to ensure crossings (its a single line) occur properly. For me that has been a pencil and paper activity - until now. It's quite an art form.

It would be fun (well I think so!) to use the new Timtable system to input and maintain my whole timetable BUT of course none of it is "real" (in the sense of a model - most of it is real and still in place) and it's in miles (and chains - not a US measurement?) between stations and I don't need "scale" speeds I need real ones.

Is it likely to be possible? It would be a lot of work before it would be possible to test anything - so is there anyone out there who can give me any enouragement or say it won't work?
 

Thanks Dave.? Sounds good. Since Ullapool is 64 miles from Inverness will the calculations cope with 337920!? Wick is rather more at about 162 or 855360!
 

Iain,

The calculations should work. The numbers are Java double values.

Dave Sand

On Dec 12, 2018, at 10:30 AM, Iain <iain@...> wrote:

Thanks Dave. Sounds good. Since Ullapool is 64 miles from Inverness will the calculations cope with 337920! Wick is rather more at about 162 or 855360!
 

OK.? My wife is one of those clever mathematicians who write papers about error propagation: hence my concern.
 

I, too, use a spreadsheet to manage my layout version of my prototype's timetable, and use the graphing feature.? I also us Operations Pro, although my layout is not close to supporting an operating session.?

I've taken a perfunctory shufti at the new timetable tool.? It seems to me that there is a lot of common data used by it and by Operations Pro.? Certainly, there are many fields in one that are not used by the other, but I have to ask if there is any plan to integrate the data, perhaps as an option when setting up a New Layout in Timetable.

The graph produced by Timetable starts with 'Mile 0' at the top of the graph.? Is there a way to have it at the bottom???

Thanks to whoever added Timetable to JMRI.? It's an interesting addition.?
Chris
 

Chris,

This is version 1 of the Java/JMRI based Timetable Tool. It was migrated from PHP/MySql/Javascript. The goal for 4.14 was the migration with no integration. The original version was QBasic in 1993 followed by a VB3 version.

During the 4.15 development cycle I will be adding a CSV export capability. The CSV file can then be imported into a spreadsheet program for formatting and printing.

I will include the ability to import a ¡°new layout¡± from Operations. I have played with Operations a bit, but my knowledge is limited. The main piece of data that I don¡¯t see is the distance between stations.

I will take a look at providing an invert option for the graph. Based on the complexity of the current graphing code, it may require a new class with all of the logic and calculations flipped.

Dave Sand

On Dec 20, 2018, at 9:02 AM, Chris Mawdsley <mawdsch@...> wrote:

I, too, use a spreadsheet to manage my layout version of my prototype's timetable, and use the graphing feature. I also us Operations Pro, although my layout is not close to supporting an operating session.

I've taken a perfunctory shufti at the new timetable tool. It seems to me that there is a lot of common data used by it and by Operations Pro. Certainly, there are many fields in one that are not used by the other, but I have to ask if there is any plan to integrate the data, perhaps as an option when setting up a New Layout in Timetable.

The graph produced by Timetable starts with 'Mile 0' at the top of the graph. Is there a way to have it at the bottom?

Thanks to whoever added Timetable to JMRI. It's an interesting addition.
Chris
 

Dave,

OperationsPro doesn't ask for or use distance between stations, but does allow a user to enter a default train travel time between stations.? The default travel time can also be increased or decreased between any two locations.? Maybe a simple conversion from time to distance could be considered.

Dan
 

Dan,

Thanks for the feedback. As a rule, do people treat the switch and travel times as real minutes or fast clock minutes? Just to confirm, I also don¡¯t see any references to fast clock ratio, train speed or train type, such as freight or passenger.

Dave Sand

On Dec 20, 2018, at 3:32 PM, Dan Boudreau <daboudreau@...> wrote:

Dave,

OperationsPro doesn't ask for or use distance between stations, but does allow a user to enter a default train travel time between stations. The default travel time can also be increased or decreased between any two locations. Maybe a simple conversion from time to distance could be considered.

Dan
 

Dave,

The time whether it is real or fast clock doesn't matter to the program.? It is used on the printouts and is used by the operators to understand the order trains might arrive at a location.? So if the operators were using real time, they would enter real time minutes, and the same goes if they are using a fast clock, they would enter fast clock minutes.? Note that on most layouts, the time to work a location is normally much much larger than the time to travel to the next station.? On most layouts travel time to the next station is typically under a minute.? Where the time to work a single car at a location is over a minute.

Dan
 

Dave,?

Thanks very much.? I assumed that this is the initial version of Timetable Tool.? That was why I asked about whether or not a future iteration would include an import capability from Operations.? I hope my message didn't leave the impression I am disappointed in any way with version 1.? I'm also not trying to cause scope creep in your project.? Version 1 does everything it needs to do, and if the folks using it are not using Operations too,? it's a great addition to the JMRI family just as it is!?

As you and Dan Boudreau have started discussing, there is data that your Timetable Tool uses that is not in Operations.? I suspect that having imported the Ops data, you may need to prompt the user to enter additional data.? Distance between stations appears to be simple enough knowing the travel time and speed, however, the distance is really the one constant in the equation.? Travel time and speed are both variable and also subject to error and user-adjustment to balance a timetable.? Operations doesn't require a model scale in its Routes-Locations-Trains logic, and it would be limiting to Timetable Tool to assume it's the same scale as in the Operations->Settings, although grabbing that data might be a good default for the scale selection in Timetable Tool.??

Whether, and how, you integrate Timetable Tool with Operations, I'll leave to you.??

Thanks again for adding it to JMRI.?

Chris

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