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i have been using DecoderPro for programming my DCC loco decoders (in all scales) for several years now, because the graphic interface is a lot easier to operate the trying to do programming adjustments with my NCE PowerCab. Recently however, I have come up against an issue that has me stumped trying to program a Hornby 4-4-0. Because this loco has an eight pin NMRA socket, but is also a tender-drive model, there is very little space inside the tender for a decoder. In fact, the only decoders I have on hand that could fit, both are used and refugees from my spare parts box, one is an Arnold/Rivarossi unit identified as mfg #173, decoder version #021. The other decoder is an old NCE/TTX DH102EU neither of which are able to be seen or communicate with DecoderPro when I try them on the program track. I have two computers set up with DecoderPro, an old HP Netbook with a Mac OS (a “HackIntosh”) running DecoderPro 2.14, and a slightly newer Asus tablet/ notebook convertible running Windows 8 and DecoderPro version 3. Neither computer can see either decoder. Yet, if I put a known working DCC loco (Walthers Plymouth ML8) on the programming track everything works fine as expected. If I then add the Hornby loco equipped with the Arnold/Rivarossi decoder to the program track along with the working ML8 loco, all of a sudden DecoderPro can not see either loco. As soon as I remove the Hornby loco, DecoderPro immediately sees the Walthers loco again just fine. It’s as if the Hornby loco isn’t just unable to be seen, it prevents the other loco from being seen as well. I was able to set the short address on the Hornby loco using the NCE PowerCab with the instruction book in hand, but it took many attempts before I could get the new address to actually work. For a test, ?I just today took the loco down to my LHS, where they have a demo layout using an MRC Prodigy Squared System, and using that system, I was able to select the address of the Hornby 4-4-0 and it operated fine. Since the Hornby loco has no lights, the only feature needed from the decoder is motor control. I realize this is an old decoder, but it is the first time I have had trouble with DecoderPro detecting a loco. My question is, is there something wrong with my DecoderPro, my SPROG 3 interface, computers, decoders or what? I believe the Java on my two computers are probably limiting me to the JMRI versions they are using, and I can’t foresee buying a new laptop and trying to learn how to work the latest version of DecoderPro. I have enough trouble trying to figure out the differences between DecoderPro v2 & V3!

Thanks,
Bill in FtL

Bill,

On 2 Feb 2020, at 11:33 AM, Bill Nielsen <wrangler@...> wrote:

i have been using DecoderPro for programming my DCC loco decoders (in all scales) for several years now, because the graphic interface is a lot easier to operate the trying to do programming adjustments with my NCE PowerCab. Recently however, I have come up against an issue that has me stumped trying to program a Hornby 4-4-0. Because this loco has an eight pin NMRA socket, but is also a tender-drive model, there is very little space inside the tender for a decoder. In fact, the only decoders I have on hand that could fit, both are used and refugees from my spare parts box, one is an Arnold/Rivarossi unit identified as mfg #173, decoder version #021. The other decoder is an old NCE/TTX DH102EU neither of which are able to be seen or communicate with DecoderPro when I try them on the program track.

They'll only be seen if fitted to a loco (or a motor across the motor terminals).

They are possibly defective, or there is a wiring problem in the loco. Quite likely interference suppression components connected to the motor or even the track wiring. They can cause havoc with reading/using decoders.

I have two computers set up with DecoderPro, an old HP Netbook with a Mac OS (a “HackIntosh”) running DecoderPro 2.14,

A very old version of JMRI that won't know about many modern decoders.

What macOS version are you running on the HackIntosh?

and a slightly newer Asus tablet/ notebook convertible running Windows 8 and DecoderPro version 3.

A very old version of JMRI that won't know about many modern decoders.

Windows 8 can certainly run the latest version of JMRI.

Neither computer can see either decoder. Yet, if I put a known working DCC loco (Walthers Plymouth ML8) on the programming track everything works fine as expected.

Good.

If I then add the Hornby loco equipped with the Arnold/Rivarossi decoder to the program track along with the working ML8 loco, all of a sudden DecoderPro can not see either loco.

That's expected. If you have more than one decoder on the program track you won't be able to see either (unless you've implemented CV15/16 decoder locking in both locos and they have different lock keys).

As soon as I remove the Hornby loco, DecoderPro immediately sees the Walthers loco again just fine. It’s as if the Hornby loco isn’t just unable to be seen, it prevents the other loco from being seen as well.

See above.

I was able to set the short address on the Hornby loco using the NCE PowerCab with the instruction book in hand, but it took many attempts before I could get the new address to actually work. For a test, I just today took the loco down to my LHS, where they have a demo layout using an MRC Prodigy Squared System, and using that system, I was able to select the address of the Hornby 4-4-0 and it operated fine.

That doesn't prove that it read the loco.

Since the Hornby loco has no lights, the only feature needed from the decoder is motor control. I realize this is an old decoder, but it is the first time I have had trouble with DecoderPro detecting a loco. My question is, is there something wrong with my DecoderPro, my SPROG 3 interface, computers, decoders or what?

You are confusing me. Is your Program Track (and JMRI) connected to the Power Cab or to a SPROG 3?

I believe the Java on my two computers are probably limiting me to the JMRI versions they are using, and I can’t foresee buying a new laptop and trying to learn how to work the latest version of DecoderPro.

If you have a laptop with Windows 8, that's more than adequate for the latest JMRI version.

I still use Windows 7 and even Windows XP with the latest JMRI.

I have enough trouble trying to figure out the differences between DecoderPro v2 & V3!

Big user-interface changes between DecoderPro V2 and V3. V4 has basically the same user interface as V3.

Dave in Australia

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the reply. I didn’t realize that having two engines on the track would disable the programming attempt, I thought that more than one engine on the program track would reprogram them all. I am using DecoderPro with the SPROG3, the NCE PowerCab is my stand alone System. The program/test track is setup using Kato’s UniTrack and also uses their mini Molex connectors, so I can easily swap between DP/SPROG3, the PowerCab, or even an analog MRC 9500. Both of the decoders in question are quite old (I think I’ve had them for going on 15 years now), and the NCE PowerCab System was able to see, read, and write to at least the Arnold/Rivarossi decoder after a while. I’m pretty sure it’ll be the same with the NCE/TTX decoder too, but I haven’t tried yet because I had gotten sidetracked trying to get DecoderPro to work. Like I said, they are the only decoders I had on hand that were thin enough to fit in the loco, All my other on-hand decoders are too thick to fit, mostly because they all have JST connectors and shrink wrap, which makes them just a bit too thick. Since the engine in question has no lighting, there’s no need for the extra functions found on newer decoders. I would like to have a better motor control with bemf, and possibly an anti-stall capacitor, but realistically, the Hornby loco, even though brand new, is still pretty old tech with its ringfield motor & tender drive, so I’m not sure it would be worth the expense of the latest decoder version.

I’m pretty sure my problem is not the the DP is too old to see the decoders, probably more likely that the decoders are what’s too old! It’s good to know that the Asus convertible should still work with the newer DecoderPro, since I really like that little computer, though I don’t much care for Windows. I thought I had read that the Java version on it was too old for the newer DP. The HP/“HackIntosh” Netbook uses an early version of Mac OSX that was current right after Apple switched over away from Motorola chips, It uses a third party software to allow the HP Netbook to run an Apple OS, a door which Apple closed pretty quickly. My limited computer experience has been limited to mostly Apple, but I really liked the size of the HP Netbook. The software conversion was done for me by a guy in the IT department at the university where my wife worked. At the time, he said that he had converted a lot of MS computers over to the Mac OS, because Macs were very popular with both instructors and students at the school, but by then, Apple had made any future upgrades to their OS running on a PC impossible. It figures that the DecoderPro V2 graphics would be obsolete, that’s the one I’m more comfortable using!

Thanks,
Bill in FtL

Bill,

On 2 Feb 2020, at 3:22 PM, Bill Nielsen <wrangler@...> wrote:

Thanks for the reply. I didn’t realize that having two engines on the track would disable the programming attempt,

It doesn't disable "programming attempts". It disables "program track reads". Huge difference.

I thought that more than one engine on the program track would reprogram them all.

That is correct, as far as "program track writes" are concerned. Both NCE and SPROG do "blind writes" - they don't listen while writing and don't care what happens on the track.

Having more than one loco on the program track when doing "program track reads" is like asking a group of people a question and having them all reply equally loudly at the same time. The result is you hear nothing intelligible.

but realistically, the Hornby loco, even though brand new, is still pretty old tech with its ringfield motor & tender drive, so I’m not sure it would be worth the expense of the latest decoder version.

If it's that old with a ringfield motor it's highly likely to have "suppressors" across the motor and/and/or in the track leads and that may be the problem.

I’m pretty sure my problem is not the the DP is too old to see the decoders, probably more likely that the decoders are what’s too old! It’s good to know that the Asus convertible should still work with the newer DecoderPro, since I really like that little computer, though I don’t much care for Windows. I thought I had read that the Java version on it was too old for the newer DP.

All Windows versions back to XP are capable of having a Java version that runs the latest JMRI.

(nstalling the correct Java version for XP is messy, but quite possible
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The HP/“HackIntosh” Netbook uses an early version of Mac OSX that was current right after Apple switched over away from Motorola chips, It uses a third party software to allow the HP Netbook to run an Apple OS, a door which Apple closed pretty quickly.

You don't need to be secretive about macOS versions here. Many of the developers speak Mac. DecoderPro and JMRI started life on Mac and still is the platform of choice for many of the developers.

It figures that the DecoderPro V2 graphics would be obsolete, that’s the one I’m more comfortable using!

You can actually make DecoderPro V3 and V4 look like V2 if you really want to!

Dave in Australia

Thanks Tony,

That’s good to know, However, the loco I have is a recently purchased new Hornby 4-4-0 that came with an 8 pin socket, but my decoder is an old Arnold/Rivarossi unit (mfr #173, version #021) which I seem to recall was actually made for them by Lenz. My NCE was able to read the decoder info and also read back the decoders short address during the programming process, my SPROG3/DecoderPro setup could not. You may be right about not being able to use a long address with this decoder, it is very old. I got two of them back in 2005 when I was working for Model Expo, who was the US distributor for Rivarossi & Arnold at the time, and the decoder wasn’t a recent release even then. I also got the NCE/TTX DH102EU decoder at about the same time, it was made for Tony’s Trains by NCE. They all had 8 pin plug & play plugs attached from the factory, and as soon as I can find the box containing most of my HO locos I will have my Atlas DCC-ready U36c chassis that I used for a DCC testbed, so I'll be able to experiment more with the two remaining decoders, which I am sure were working when they were put in the spare parts box. I got my first DCC system (an original Digitrax Challenger - I still have it) back in 1993 and also still have a few locos with decoders from that era. Decoders have come a long way since then and have gotten a lot less expensive as well, those old very basic decoders sold for $40-$50 at the time!

Thanks,
Bill in FtL?

Hi Dave,

while the ringfield design of my Hornby 4-4-0 is old, the loco was purchased brand new recently, it is a THOMAS range “Edward” which was only recently discontinued by Hornby when they gave up the Thomas franchise. So it is a recent production of an old design.

Im not trying to be secretive about the “HackIntosh” OS version, I simply don’t remember exactly what it is, although I’m pretty sure it was an early version of OSX.

I didn’t notice any RF Suppressors in the Hornby loco when I had the tender shell off, but the motor is kind of sealed up, so they could be inside. Would it be likely that the suppressors cause problems for the SPROG3/DecoderPro programming and not for the NCE PowerCab? It seems to be that way since the NCE was able to program and read back the address but the SPROG wasn’t.

How would I go about making the newer versions of DecoderPro look like version 2? Is it something a novice like myself could do, or is it better attempted by someone who is more of a computer hobbyist than just a train nut?

Bill in FtL

Hi Bill.

If you can read the decoder of another dcc fitted loco on your program track that will rule out any problem with your Decoder Pro, SPROG 3 interface. If other dcc locos can be read then you could try & reset the decoder.
I'm sure someone on here can tell you what number to put in what cv to reset the decoder which is giving you problems.

Regards.
Tony.

Hi Bill

My 2 cents about what I found with the single Arnold 81210 I have.

Right the 1st Hornby decoder (R8215) can't be read and works only with short address.

But Arnold/Rivarossi decoders 81200 and 81210 can be read using an ECoS, (but not using the 1st MS-TRIX Command station, and may be many others). CV8=Mfg=173, is detected by JMRI, but CV7 being undocumented, you have to chose one of the 2 available from JMRI.

However, I found an issue when resetting it (undocumented, but CV8 set to 8) with a Rivarossi DCC German BR96, with a "user manual" :( ) :
>>>> it puts nearly all CVs, including dozens of undocumented ones (speed table...) to 255, thus put the decoder in an unauthorized long address (CV17 and 18 to 255), consist addres? (CV19) to 255 (ie short address 127 travel in reverse). To put it back in order, I had to set CV17, 18 and 19 to 0, then also set CV49 to 0 for DCC mode only (value 8 being Analogic only!), then define short or long address as wanted.

Happily, I was able to read some CVs and had a saved backup of the engine in a spare USB stick.

If you drop me an email, I'll send you 2 scanned PDF files for both Arnold 81200 and 81210 decoders. However both manuals have the same (lack of) informations, and miss most of the decoder CVs.

Alain

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Alain355

Hi Dave, Tony, and Alain,

After I was finally able to program the old decoder to address 2 (the cab number of the loco) using the NCE PowerCab (which also was able to read back the new address, as well as decoder manufacturer and version number), and then verified that it was operational using it’s new address on the LHS demo layout with their MRC Prodigy System, I think I will “leave it be” for now, since it does seem to be working. As they say, “If it ain’t broke, don’t try to fix it”. However, I was curious (and still am) as to why the SPROG3 and DecoderPro were unable to see or program it.

I still have the other old Arnold/Rivarossi type decoder as well as the old NCE/TTX decoder to play with (once I can locate my missing Atlas test chassis), all of which were unable to be seen or programmed using the SPROG3 DecoderPro. For several years, my SPROG3/DecoderPro combination, though admittedly somewhat out of date, has worked perfectly, misleading me to thinking that I may have actually figured out this DCC programming thing - Oh well, back to the usual state of confusion.

Bill in FtL

Bill,

On 3 Feb 2020, at 1:46 AM, Bill Nielsen <wrangler@...> wrote:

How would I go about making the newer versions of DecoderPro look like version 2? Is it something a novice like myself could do, or is it better attempted by someone who is more of a computer hobbyist than just a train nut?

If you really want to see all the older menu items, you start DecoderPro and then use the File->Open PanelPro Window menu item and all your old familiar menu items are there.

I'm away from a computer at present and can't remember the best way to make the change happen every time you start DecoderPro. Someone else may remember...

Dave in Australia

Hi Bill.

Glad you were able to program the decoder so leave well alone.
Do you have a catalogue number for the Thomas loco in question as a matter of interest ?

Regards.
Tony.