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Over time I have accumulated a lot of spurs with “accept only” load restrictions. All spurs on the layout have schedules for receiving and shipping car/load combos. The long list of accepted car/load combos matches the list of car/load combos in the schedules for those spurs. This gets a bit cumbersome when changing schedules for industries.

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Question 1: If I understand the program correctly it will not send a car/load combo to a spur unless it matches a schedule, even if many other combos are allowed on the spur. Therefore I could change all those spurs to “exclude” ?where only default E and L are excluded. Is this correct?

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Question 2: Same question for intervening tracks like yard C/I tracks. If a yard C/I track has its served locations set to only one location and all spurs at that location have schedules, will the program only deliver cars to that C/I that match the locations spur schedules? The C/I could be set to E2 (E and L) and still only receive cars matching the locations spur schedules?

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Question 3: The exception might be where an originating spur schedule specifically ships a car load to another specific spur. The program would force delivery to the receiving spur even if the receiving spur did not have a corresponding schedule entry. I think Pete said “it’s goin’ there”. Correct?

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All questions assume the tracks are set to "serve" the corresponding rolling stock in the top setting under "locations".

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Charlie in Northern Colorado

Hey Charlie,

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Q1)? This is accurate, and I have never found the need to filter other than through the schedule.? If you prevent E and L from leaving staging, you need not exclude those from any spur either.

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Q2)? While you can filter car/load for C/I tracks at a yard, if you are filtering by "destination", then only those car/loads tagged with the allowed destination should make it into those C/I tracks.? You can further ensure that the cars allowed in must have Final Dests. but be aware, this might limit the occasional empty car type from making into this track if it could be then sent along to meet a schedule line request.? Think the odd empty not tagged (by another schedule) to go a specific place...

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Q3)? The exception has a caveat... If the sending schedule points to a specific destination, the track at that location must also be named.? I.e. ship to [dest = Denver], + [track = Keebler Co.].? ?AND, there is the load conversion issue, whereby the custom load (since it is not named in a schedule) would convert to a default E, or if a custom empty, then conversion leads to a default L.

If you are looking to get a car pointed almost, but not all the way, to a spur, use the schedule to name a yard track that could then be served by the final train necessary to spot the car.? This will circumvent the "enroute" filter and the car will eventually get spotted.? Example of this might look like this...

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Schedule at Spur A "ships" the boxcar of <parts> to Denver, Roper Trk 3.

Roper Trk 3 serves only downtown Denver Industrial Area using Train (DEN Tramp).

Denver, Keebler Co. (the receiving spur) schedule "receives" boxcar of <parts>.? This will "pull" the loaded boxcar in when there is adequate space on the spur.

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Since Roper Trk 3 serves only DDIA, the car will not be allowed to leave and fill some other schedule calling for a boxcar of <parts>...

Be aware that the cars waiting in Trk 3 might lose their order of movement, if other cars are assigned to go straight to Keebler from another schedule.? This is because those cars would have named final dests. and be counted as "enroute" cars for Keebler.? So, when you build the DEN Tramp, the waiting cars would be seen as overfills at Keebler...? ?Hopefully that all make sense.

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Happy to help, hope it helps,

<Pete Johnson>

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Thanks Pete,

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This will save me lots of complexity and time. I hadn't thought about limiting the E and L shipments at staging. Good tip. I'm really liking schedules the more I get them deployed. I'll save your other tip for future use.

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Charlie in Northern Colorado

On Sat, Nov 30, 2024 at 02:00 PM, Pete Johnson wrote:

Q2)? While you can filter car/load for C/I tracks at a yard, if you are filtering by "destination", then only those car/loads tagged with the allowed destination should make it into those C/I tracks.? You can further ensure that the cars allowed in must have Final Dests. but be aware, this might limit the occasional empty car type from making into this track if it could be then sent along to meet a schedule line request.? Think the odd empty not tagged (by another schedule) to go a specific place...

I as well find having to include/exclude loads as well as using schedules cumbersome.? I use custom loads and schedules for everything.? I have always assumed that when setting up a C/I track with a specific destination and only allowing cars with a final destination, that only cars that match the schedule for the destination should ever go to the C/I track.? However, when I press the "check destinations" button for the C/I track, I frequently get lots of errors regarding the destination track not allowing specific car types, loads, and roads, so I have to add all of these inclusions/exclusions to get rid of the errors.? Do these errors really matter if only cars that match the schedule for the destination can go to the C/I track?? It would be way better if I could get rid of all of these inclusion/exclusions for my spurs.??

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Tom

Pete,

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Some interesting things happened on the way to the roundhouse today. Per our discussion I changed all my yard C/I tracks to “accept all cars/loads” and I added ?“exclude E and L” ?to the “ship load options” on all staging tracks. These per my understanding of your answers to my previous questions.

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The first problem occurred when I ran a local from a yard C/I to several industries and terminating back in the yard. The train tried to set out some empty cars it had just ?picked up on its run back to the C/I it had just left. The schedules for industries on the route called for loaded ?cars, not empties. The cars had custom loads ?”empty”, not the default L. Apparently the program did not check for schedules at sites being served by the yard C/I on its return, only that the C/I would accept all loads. I went back to listing specific acceptable loads and the problem went away. I also tried a different local from the yard and did not see the problem but I didn’t spend a lot of time trying to understand the difference.

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The second problem occurred when I tried to run a train from one of the staging tracks. The run should have originated in a staging location, exchanged cuts on a C/I track in the yard, and returned to the originating staging location. The train build failed due to not being able to leave staging with default E cars. I have the staging tracks set to “empty cars with custom loads” so all cars that cannot be loaded with a custom load matching a valid schedule on the layout will be left with the default E. Trying to restrict E and L at staging does not seem to be viable unless I misunderstood your suggestion.

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Your thoughts?

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Charlie – Northern Colorado

On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 12:53 PM, Tom Myrick wrote:

I as well find having to include/exclude loads as well as using schedules cumbersome.? I use custom loads and schedules for everything.? I have always assumed that when setting up a C/I track with a specific destination and only allowing cars with a final destination, that only cars that match the schedule for the destination should ever go to the C/I track.? However, when I press the "check destinations" button for the C/I track, I frequently get lots of errors regarding the destination track not allowing specific car types, loads, and roads, so I have to add all of these inclusions/exclusions to get rid of the errors.? Do these errors really matter if only cars that match the schedule for the destination can go to the C/I track?

Tom,

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From the Help files...

After you've selected the destinations that you want the track to service, you can use the "Check Destinations" button to verify that all of the destinations you've selected can also service the same car types, roads, and loads as the track. The program will report each problem it encounters, you can continue checking by pressing the "OK" button, or "Cancel" if you want to abort the checking. The "Check Destinations" can take awhile to complete as it will test all combinations of car types, roads, and loads that the track can service. The program also checks to see if there's a train that can carry the car from the track to the selected destinations.

You might find that the "Check Destinations" will report bogus issues when you've configured your C/I track to service several car types, roads, and loads, but have destinations that can only service a subset of these. In this case, it is best to break the C/I track into several tracks each servicing the same car types, roads, and loads that the destinations can service, and then??the C/I tracks together if you want to use the same track space.

My best practice has been to not worry about the "Check Destinations" feature since it appears to consider all car types in the loop and I don't want to spend time making the "cars serviced" match up across the multiple usage areas in question.? I do my due diligence to make sure I am confident of my setup (pencil-to-paper), using as few filters as I can and refine through rigorous testing...?

Happy to help, hope it helps,

<Pete Johnson>

On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 06:49 PM, CharlieM wrote:

Per our discussion I changed all my yard C/I tracks to “accept all cars/loads”

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I would also suggest you determine the destinations to be served by the C/I tracks, as well as adding the filter that only allows in cars with final destinations (see attached photo "final1").? This should prevent the cars from being returned to the same C/I, unless they have been matched back to a schedule at the destination served by the C/I track (i.e. picked up from Denver and matched to another schedule in Denver, but brought back to the yard first, for whatever reason.).

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Alternately, I would also ask why the local train is allowed to set out into the same track from which it picks up (in the yard)?? Do you not have other tracks into which those cars could be sorted (for other "destinations")?

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As far as the program checking schedules for the return of the local to the yard, if the cars had NO final (or next) destinations, then the program would attempt to find a spur/schedule to which the cars could be assigned.? If it found none it might look to find a track into which the car could land.? Could you copy/paste the excerpt of the BR relating to just one of these "empty" car moves so we can look it over and comment...?

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Addressing the issues with staging, may I suggest a re-read of my wiki article (/g/jmriusers/wiki/37228) in particular, the first bit about staging set up.? If you allow default E cars to leave staging, where do you? intend them to go?

This error message...

results when the program cannot find a schedule to which any custom load/empty can be matched.? You should expect this if you have issues that prevent car assignment, including lack of spur capacity, use of "random" or missing car-type lines in a schedule.

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If the goal is to migrate to only customs (no defaults at all), then you should work out schedules for all loads or use the 4th option in staging track setup, and allow schedule-no-matches to be sent to other staging locations.? And by eliminating the E and L from the "Ship Load Options", the only time you should see cars with "E", is while they are in staging tracks awaiting custom load/empty assignment.

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I sometimes feel I have difficulty knowing which way to help because I don't get to see the setup of the individual user.? If what I have noted is unclear, we just need to patiently add to our communication until the light bulb goes on for either of us!

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The light went on here after looking closely at the build report that improperly delivered cars back to the originating yard C/I. I had set destinations for all yard C/I tracks but somehow I had included the yard as a destination for one C/I. The industries along the local's route had schedules that defined the ship to locations as "Yard" with no specific track. So when the train brought the pickups back to the yard it set them out on the original C/I ! I hate it when software does exactly what I tell it to do. When dealing with something as complex as OpsPro Charlie's Nineteenth Law states " Over time crud accumulates, eventually yielding cruddy results".

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I think I understand the final destination filter but I'm not ready to impose this restriction yet. For future consideration.

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I had originally set this to allow the caboose to return to that originating track. I store a particular caboose on the C/I track because I that local to always have the same caboose. he crew is comfortable with that. I think there are other ways to accomplish this.

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Re the elimination of default E and L, I do want to eliminate E and L in all locations except the unloaded cars in staging. I thought preventing them from shipping from staging would do this but that turned out to be a problem. There will be valid occasions where and E car in staging cannot me matched to a schedule. Those cars must be allowed to leave and return to staging since I do not plan to do any hand fiddling in staging areas. I think the solution is to allow E to ship from staging but to block E from all receiving locations except staging. Seems to work but does require some effort.

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Again, thanks for your help. It takes several tries to light the bulb but eventually it does come on.

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Charlie - Northern Colorado

On Mon, Dec 2, 2024 at 12:28 AM, Pete Johnson wrote:

You might find that the "Check Destinations" will report bogus issues when you've configured your C/I track to service several car types, roads, and loads, but have destinations that can only service a subset of these. In this case, it is best to break the C/I track into several tracks each servicing the same car types, roads, and loads that the destinations can service, and then??the C/I tracks together if you want to use the same track space.

My best practice has been to not worry about the "Check Destinations" feature since it appears to consider all car types in the loop and I don't want to spend time making the "cars serviced" match up across the multiple usage areas in question.? I do my due diligence to make sure I am confident of my setup (pencil-to-paper), using as few filters as I can and refine through rigorous testing...?

Hi Pete,

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I do use track pools as well for this very reason.? I also do my due diligence and do lots of testing to make sure my schedules and custom loads do what they should.? I am going to try and get rid of my filters since they complicate things and see if I have any issues.? I don't anticipate I will.? Would be good to not have to worry about the check destinations button.

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Tom

Pete

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Further to last post: Removing “Yard” from the allowed destinations of the subject yard C/I cures the problem of false deliveries of the local pick ups but it also prohibits storing a caboose on that C/I. I wanted a specific caboose (always associated with the specific local train) to be returned and stored on the C/I. The program will not allow a caboose stored on a C/I to leave and return to the same C/I unless that C/I has “yard” as one of its destinations.

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However,I think I have a working solution: I added a spur to the yard with the same name as the C/I track but with a -1. I disabled the load changes, allowed only cabooses, and allowed only the desired two trains to access it. I also disallowed the two trains from accessing the general yard caboose track. This forces the two trains to pick up the caboose from the new spur and return it to the same spur but the spur appears with the C/I track name on the manifest. Seems to work but I’ll never remember why I did the in the future.

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Charlie

On Mon, Dec 2, 2024 at 11:19 AM, CharlieM wrote:

However,I think I have a working solution: I added a spur to the yard with the same name as the C/I track but with a -1. I disabled the load changes, allowed only cabooses, and allowed only the desired two trains to access it. I also disallowed the two trains from accessing the general yard caboose track. This forces the two trains to pick up the caboose from the new spur and return it to the same spur but the spur appears with the C/I track name on the manifest. Seems to work but I’ll never remember why I did the in the future.

Charlie,

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This is exactly what I was going to suggest you try, just had a full day of errands before I could back on to post an answer!

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-Pete J-

On Mon, Dec 2, 2024 at 08:09 AM, CharlieM wrote:

There will be valid occasions where and E car in staging cannot me matched to a schedule. Those cars must be allowed to leave and return to staging since I do not plan to do any hand fiddling in staging areas. I think the solution is to allow E to ship from staging but to block E from all receiving locations except staging. Seems to work but does require some effort.

I would posit that the use of the 4th box in staging track setups (under the Custom Load Options), would allow any custom load/empty that is not found to be matched to a spur/schedule, able to travel to staging and NOT have to be an "E" at anytime (other than the aforementioned dwell in staging).? This requires less work on your part, I believe...

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Pete,

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Thanks for your review. My bulb is getting weak with age but it does still occasionally light.

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I tried the fourth box and could see no difference. I tried it on a turn leaving/returning to a staging track and a local leaving/returning to the yard. For the staging turn it still sent out cars with default E and returned them to the originating staging track. If I don't block E at all possible receiving sites the program just dumps them all and leaves the cleanup as an exercise for the student.

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One other question: When I build a train as a test, reset it, and then revert back to a previous backup I occasionally get a message like "operational files have been modified, do you want to save them?" I always check no since I want the exact previous condition. Do you know what files and conditions are indicated? I had thought perhaps things like car/track counts and wait number decrements.

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Charlie - Northern Colorado

On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 07:05 AM, CharlieM wrote:

I tried the fourth box and could see no difference. I tried it on a turn leaving/returning to a staging track and a local leaving/returning to the yard...

Can you post up the BR on this train???

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Do you allow E & L to be received by the staging tracks?? If you prevent them from arriving into staging, the program should fill the cars leaving (those that make the round trip) with custom somethings...

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Here's how I suggest the setup look...

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This allows all customs to be shipped and received, which would allow for your cars not finding a match on-layout, to make their way back into staging.

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As for the message question... I haven't gotten that one.? When I do a back up/restore, I just get the dialog windows with the drop-down menus for naming or selecting the file for whichever operation I am executing...

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OK Pete. We'll see if I can figure out this upload process.

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The first three attachments are from the SP Westbound turn. E and L were NOT blocked from the staging track. My normal mode with E and L blocked from all receiving locations. Note that cars with E leave and return to the staging track.

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The next two attachments, named as modified, are of the same train but with E and L blocked from leaving and accepting from the staging track. The train did not initially require a caboose so the build blew up when it couldn't find a load for the caboose on the track. I went back and added a "crew" load for cabooses and required the train have a caboose. The BR you see is the result.

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Let me know what you need next.

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Charlie - Northern Colorado

Pete,

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After I uploaded the previous data I realized I had not checked the fourth box in the build options. I went back and checked the box and got essentially the same result. It seems to blow up when it cannot find a home for all the car/load combos it wants to send.

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Charlie

In the modified build report only one car wasn't given a track at location "Yard".? By default, the program limits cars to a spur from staging to 100%.? If you changed it to 200% that car and one other could be routed through location "Yard" and to location "Processing".

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From the build report:

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Generate load for (ATSF 50656) type (Stock) empty (E) at (SP East, SP East) destination () Try spur (Processing, Meat Packer Stock) custom load (Stock) Car (ATSF 50656) would overload track (Processing, Meat Packer Stock), currently 2 inbound cars, length (88) feet, 100% loading from staging Could not find a route to a spur that needs a custom load for car (ATSF 50656)



Dan

Pete,

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FYI the two cars that tripped up the train are:

ATSF 83252 Gondola

ATSF 50656 Stock

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Both have plenty of available custom loads but may not have accessible receiving locations at the time of the run.

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Charlie

Dan,

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So am I reading this correctly in that the program would intentionally overload the spurs rather than return the cars to staging? This doesn't seem like a good solution. I like it that if there is no available space for a car it will be included in the train but returned to staging. This exercise? began as a way to deal with default Es and Ls. My solution was to block E and L from all spurs on the layout but Pete suggested it might be possible to block them from ever leaving an originating track. Blocking E and L on all spurs works well but it is a bit cumbersome initially.

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Charlie - Northern Colorado

On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 09:25 PM, CharlieM wrote:

So am I reading this correctly in that the program would intentionally overload the spurs rather than return the cars to staging?

Not quite right.? The program will drop the car off at "Yard", and when the spur has room move the car from Yard to Processing.