On Sep 23, 2019, at 10:59 AM, Robin Becker <rbgroups@...> wrote:

Hi. I have a panel with signals set up in Layout Editor and generally everything works fine. The only issue so far is with 2 turnouts where the main line takes the diverging (THROWN) route. On the main approaching each turnout is a double head searchlight signal mast. In order to get the top head on the mast to represent the main (diverging) route, I have set “Continuing Route Turnout State” to THROWN. That works as desired on the panel diagram – when the turnout is shown on the panel as aligned for the diverging route, the signal shows Green over Red (for example), and when the turnout on the panel is shown aligned for the normal route the signal shows Red over Green (for example).

The problem is with the relationship of the state of the turnout on the panel with the physical turnout state on the layout and as shown in the Turnout Table. It appears that setting “Continuing Route Turnout State” to THROWN causes the displayed turnout state on the panel (and the turnout state used for calculating the signal aspects) to be _opposite_ the state of the physical turnout. So now when the turnout on the layout is set to CLOSED, the turnout on the panel is shown as THROWN and signals are set as if the turnout is THROWN.

If I now check the “Inverted” checkbox for the turnout in the Turnout Table then the turnout state on the panel matches the turnout state on the layout. The Turnout Table now shows the opposite state from the physical turnout however. This means that anyone using the Turnout page in Engine Driver sees the wrong state. This is very confusing but perhaps could be managed.

There is a second reason I’d like to avoid inverting the turnout if at all possible. These physical turnouts have EXACT feedback. When the turnout is actuated, the feedback state in JMRI changes to INCONSISTENT while the turnout is in motion. This INCONSISTENT feedback state is useful since it causes all signals around that turnout to go to RED until the turnout reaches its final position. Unfortunately the INCONSISTENT state disappears when the Invert option is selected: turnouts with Invert checked only show CLOSED and THROWN.

Am I missing something in setting up Layout Editor for this condition? Would appreciate guidance if you are familiar with this case. Thanks.

(FYI I was running 4.16 but updated to the latest test build and see no change in this behavior.)

Robin

Robin Becker
San Diego, CA

On Sep 23, 2019, at 10:59 AM, Robin Becker <rbgroups@...> wrote:

Hi. I have a panel with signals set up in Layout Editor and generally everything works fine. The only issue so far is with 2 turnouts where the main line takes the diverging (THROWN) route. On the main approaching each turnout is a double head searchlight signal mast. In order to get the top head on the mast to represent the main (diverging) route, I have set “Continuing Route Turnout State” to THROWN. That works as desired on the panel diagram – when the turnout is shown on the panel as aligned for the diverging route, the signal shows Green over Red (for example), and when the turnout on the panel is shown aligned for the normal route the signal shows Red over Green (for example).

The problem is with the relationship of the state of the turnout on the panel with the physical turnout state on the layout and as shown in the Turnout Table. It appears that setting “Continuing Route Turnout State” to THROWN causes the displayed turnout state on the panel (and the turnout state used for calculating the signal aspects) to be _opposite_ the state of the physical turnout. So now when the turnout on the layout is set to CLOSED, the turnout on the panel is shown as THROWN and signals are set as if the turnout is THROWN.

If I now check the “Inverted” checkbox for the turnout in the Turnout Table then the turnout state on the panel matches the turnout state on the layout. The Turnout Table now shows the opposite state from the physical turnout however. This means that anyone using the Turnout page in Engine Driver sees the wrong state. This is very confusing but perhaps could be managed.

There is a second reason I’d like to avoid inverting the turnout if at all possible. These physical turnouts have EXACT feedback. When the turnout is actuated, the feedback state in JMRI changes to INCONSISTENT while the turnout is in motion. This INCONSISTENT feedback state is useful since it causes all signals around that turnout to go to RED until the turnout reaches its final position. Unfortunately the INCONSISTENT state disappears when the Invert option is selected: turnouts with Invert checked only show CLOSED and THROWN.

Am I missing something in setting up Layout Editor for this condition? Would appreciate guidance if you are familiar with this case. Thanks.

(FYI I was running 4.16 but updated to the latest test build and see no change in this behavior.)

Robin

Robin Becker
San Diego, CA

On Sep 23, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Robin Becker <rbgroups@...> wrote:

Dave,

Appreciate the response. I can certainly flip the driven turnout position on the layout and flip the feedback. Not sure how to fix the Turnout Table though. To simplify my remaining question, I used Loconet Sim and just assigned a DIRECT Feedback loconet turnout to the panel. When I set the Continuing Route Turnout State to THROWN in Layout Editor, the Turnout Table shows THROWN when the layout editor panel shows CLOSED. Checking "Inverted" in the Turnout Table does not resolve this. What do I need to do so that the Layout Editor Panel and the Turnout Table agree?

Robin


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave Sand
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:35 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] layout editor continuing route signal help needed

Robin,

The secret is to treat turnout closed/thrown as closed/thrown everywhere except in the continuing route setting and the wiring at the switch machine. If feedback is enabled it needs to wired accordingly. This works perfectly with Tortoise style machines and two sensor feedback. If the machine moves the wrong way, flip wires 1 and 8. If the feedback is wrong, reverse the feedback wires OR reverse the feedback sensors in the turnout table entry.

The feedback process might be different for EXACT.


Dave Sand

On Sep 23, 2019, at 10:59 AM, Robin Becker <rbgroups@...> wrote:

Hi. I have a panel with signals set up in Layout Editor and generally everything works fine. The only issue so far is with 2 turnouts where the main line takes the diverging (THROWN) route. On the main approaching each turnout is a double head searchlight signal mast. In order to get the top head on the mast to represent the main (diverging) route, I have set “Continuing Route Turnout State” to THROWN. That works as desired on the panel diagram – when the turnout is shown on the panel as aligned for the diverging route, the signal shows Green over Red (for example), and when the turnout on the panel is shown aligned for the normal route the signal shows Red over Green (for example).

The problem is with the relationship of the state of the turnout on the panel with the physical turnout state on the layout and as shown in the Turnout Table. It appears that setting “Continuing Route Turnout State” to THROWN causes the displayed turnout state on the panel (and the turnout state used for calculating the signal aspects) to be _opposite_ the state of the physical turnout. So now when the turnout on the layout is set to CLOSED, the turnout on the panel is shown as THROWN and signals are set as if the turnout is THROWN.

If I now check the “Inverted” checkbox for the turnout in the Turnout Table then the turnout state on the panel matches the turnout state on the layout. The Turnout Table now shows the opposite state from the physical turnout however. This means that anyone using the Turnout page in Engine Driver sees the wrong state. This is very confusing but perhaps could be managed.

There is a second reason I’d like to avoid inverting the turnout if at all possible. These physical turnouts have EXACT feedback. When the turnout is actuated, the feedback state in JMRI changes to INCONSISTENT while the turnout is in motion. This INCONSISTENT feedback state is useful since it causes all signals around that turnout to go to RED until the turnout reaches its final position. Unfortunately the INCONSISTENT state disappears when the Invert option is selected: turnouts with Invert checked only show CLOSED and THROWN.

Am I missing something in setting up Layout Editor for this condition? Would appreciate guidance if you are familiar with this case. Thanks.

(FYI I was running 4.16 but updated to the latest test build and see no change in this behavior.)

Robin

Robin Becker
San Diego, CA

On Sep 23, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Robin Becker <rbgroups@...> wrote:

Dave,

Appreciate the response. I can certainly flip the driven turnout position on the layout and flip the feedback. Not sure how to fix the Turnout Table though. To simplify my remaining question, I used Loconet Sim and just assigned a DIRECT Feedback loconet turnout to the panel. When I set the Continuing Route Turnout State to THROWN in Layout Editor, the Turnout Table shows THROWN when the layout editor panel shows CLOSED. Checking "Inverted" in the Turnout Table does not resolve this. What do I need to do so that the Layout Editor Panel and the Turnout Table agree?

Robin


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave Sand
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:35 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] layout editor continuing route signal help needed

Robin,

The secret is to treat turnout closed/thrown as closed/thrown everywhere except in the continuing route setting and the wiring at the switch machine. If feedback is enabled it needs to wired accordingly. This works perfectly with Tortoise style machines and two sensor feedback. If the machine moves the wrong way, flip wires 1 and 8. If the feedback is wrong, reverse the feedback wires OR reverse the feedback sensors in the turnout table entry.

The feedback process might be different for EXACT.


Dave Sand

On Sep 23, 2019, at 10:59 AM, Robin Becker <rbgroups@...> wrote:

Hi. I have a panel with signals set up in Layout Editor and generally everything works fine. The only issue so far is with 2 turnouts where the main line takes the diverging (THROWN) route. On the main approaching each turnout is a double head searchlight signal mast. In order to get the top head on the mast to represent the main (diverging) route, I have set “Continuing Route Turnout State” to THROWN. That works as desired on the panel diagram – when the turnout is shown on the panel as aligned for the diverging route, the signal shows Green over Red (for example), and when the turnout on the panel is shown aligned for the normal route the signal shows Red over Green (for example).

The problem is with the relationship of the state of the turnout on the panel with the physical turnout state on the layout and as shown in the Turnout Table. It appears that setting “Continuing Route Turnout State” to THROWN causes the displayed turnout state on the panel (and the turnout state used for calculating the signal aspects) to be _opposite_ the state of the physical turnout. So now when the turnout on the layout is set to CLOSED, the turnout on the panel is shown as THROWN and signals are set as if the turnout is THROWN.

If I now check the “Inverted” checkbox for the turnout in the Turnout Table then the turnout state on the panel matches the turnout state on the layout. The Turnout Table now shows the opposite state from the physical turnout however. This means that anyone using the Turnout page in Engine Driver sees the wrong state. This is very confusing but perhaps could be managed.

There is a second reason I’d like to avoid inverting the turnout if at all possible. These physical turnouts have EXACT feedback. When the turnout is actuated, the feedback state in JMRI changes to INCONSISTENT while the turnout is in motion. This INCONSISTENT feedback state is useful since it causes all signals around that turnout to go to RED until the turnout reaches its final position. Unfortunately the INCONSISTENT state disappears when the Invert option is selected: turnouts with Invert checked only show CLOSED and THROWN.

Am I missing something in setting up Layout Editor for this condition? Would appreciate guidance if you are familiar with this case. Thanks.

(FYI I was running 4.16 but updated to the latest test build and see no change in this behavior.)

Robin

Robin Becker
San Diego, CA

On Sep 23, 2019, at 5:25 PM, Robin Becker <rbgroups@...> wrote:

Dave,

Thanks again. I ran your demo and it works the same as my panel. When the Turnout position in the Turnout Table is set to THROWN, the Layout Editor draws the turnout as set to the straight route, i.e. CLOSED. When the Turnout position in the Turnout Table is set to CLOSED, the Layout Editor draws the turnout as set to the diverging route, i.e. THROWN.

So yes, I can set up the turnout control on the layout so that the physical turnout position matches the Layout Editor drawn turnout position. That isn't a problem. However suppose an operator standing at the physical turnout opens the Turnout Table in Engine Driver in order to change the turnout position. That operator will see the _opposite_ position listed for that turnout in the Turnout Table on their handheld device then they see looking at the physical turnout. That is the potential source of confusion I was trying to point out.

I think the key is your statement:

"When set to Thrown, Layout Editor reverses the closure segments when drawing the turnout."

So it seems this is inherent to the current method used to get the logic to treat the THROWN path as the Continuing Route, so I will just deal with it :)

Regards,

Robin


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave Sand
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 12:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] layout editor continuing route signal help needed

Robin,

The only thing you should have to do is set Continuing Route to Thrown. When set to Thrown, Layout Editor reverses the closure segments when drawing the turnout.

I have uploaded a very simple demo panel xml file:

/g/jmriusers/files/ProblemsBeingWorkedOn/dsand/Continuing%20Demo.xml

Dave Sand

On Sep 23, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Robin Becker <rbgroups@...> wrote:

Dave,

Appreciate the response. I can certainly flip the driven turnout position on the layout and flip the feedback. Not sure how to fix the Turnout Table though. To simplify my remaining question, I used Loconet Sim and just assigned a DIRECT Feedback loconet turnout to the panel. When I set the Continuing Route Turnout State to THROWN in Layout Editor, the Turnout Table shows THROWN when the layout editor panel shows CLOSED. Checking "Inverted" in the Turnout Table does not resolve this. What do I need to do so that the Layout Editor Panel and the Turnout Table agree?

Robin


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave Sand
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:35 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] layout editor continuing route signal help needed

Robin,

The secret is to treat turnout closed/thrown as closed/thrown everywhere except in the continuing route setting and the wiring at the switch machine. If feedback is enabled it needs to wired accordingly. This works perfectly with Tortoise style machines and two sensor feedback. If the machine moves the wrong way, flip wires 1 and 8. If the feedback is wrong, reverse the feedback wires OR reverse the feedback sensors in the turnout table entry.

The feedback process might be different for EXACT.


Dave Sand

On Sep 23, 2019, at 10:59 AM, Robin Becker <rbgroups@...> wrote:

Hi. I have a panel with signals set up in Layout Editor and generally everything works fine. The only issue so far is with 2 turnouts where the main line takes the diverging (THROWN) route. On the main approaching each turnout is a double head searchlight signal mast. In order to get the top head on the mast to represent the main (diverging) route, I have set “Continuing Route Turnout State” to THROWN. That works as desired on the panel diagram – when the turnout is shown on the panel as aligned for the diverging route, the signal shows Green over Red (for example), and when the turnout on the panel is shown aligned for the normal route the signal shows Red over Green (for example).

The problem is with the relationship of the state of the turnout on the panel with the physical turnout state on the layout and as shown in the Turnout Table. It appears that setting “Continuing Route Turnout State” to THROWN causes the displayed turnout state on the panel (and the turnout state used for calculating the signal aspects) to be _opposite_ the state of the physical turnout. So now when the turnout on the layout is set to CLOSED, the turnout on the panel is shown as THROWN and signals are set as if the turnout is THROWN.

If I now check the “Inverted” checkbox for the turnout in the Turnout Table then the turnout state on the panel matches the turnout state on the layout. The Turnout Table now shows the opposite state from the physical turnout however. This means that anyone using the Turnout page in Engine Driver sees the wrong state. This is very confusing but perhaps could be managed.

There is a second reason I’d like to avoid inverting the turnout if at all possible. These physical turnouts have EXACT feedback. When the turnout is actuated, the feedback state in JMRI changes to INCONSISTENT while the turnout is in motion. This INCONSISTENT feedback state is useful since it causes all signals around that turnout to go to RED until the turnout reaches its final position. Unfortunately the INCONSISTENT state disappears when the Invert option is selected: turnouts with Invert checked only show CLOSED and THROWN.

Am I missing something in setting up Layout Editor for this condition? Would appreciate guidance if you are familiar with this case. Thanks.

(FYI I was running 4.16 but updated to the latest test build and see no change in this behavior.)

Robin

Robin Becker
San Diego, CA

On Sep 23, 2019, at 5:25 PM, Robin Becker <rbgroups@...> wrote:

Dave,

Thanks again. I ran your demo and it works the same as my panel. When the Turnout position in the Turnout Table is set to THROWN, the Layout Editor draws the turnout as set to the straight route, i.e. CLOSED. When the Turnout position in the Turnout Table is set to CLOSED, the Layout Editor draws the turnout as set to the diverging route, i.e. THROWN.

So yes, I can set up the turnout control on the layout so that the physical turnout position matches the Layout Editor drawn turnout position. That isn't a problem. However suppose an operator standing at the physical turnout opens the Turnout Table in Engine Driver in order to change the turnout position. That operator will see the _opposite_ position listed for that turnout in the Turnout Table on their handheld device then they see looking at the physical turnout. That is the potential source of confusion I was trying to point out.

I think the key is your statement:

"When set to Thrown, Layout Editor reverses the closure segments when drawing the turnout."

So it seems this is inherent to the current method used to get the logic to treat the THROWN path as the Continuing Route, so I will just deal with it :)

Regards,

Robin


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave Sand
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 12:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] layout editor continuing route signal help needed

Robin,

The only thing you should have to do is set Continuing Route to Thrown. When set to Thrown, Layout Editor reverses the closure segments when drawing the turnout.

I have uploaded a very simple demo panel xml file:

/g/jmriusers/files/ProblemsBeingWorkedOn/dsand/Continuing%20Demo.xml

Dave Sand

On Sep 23, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Robin Becker <rbgroups@...> wrote:

Dave,

Appreciate the response. I can certainly flip the driven turnout position on the layout and flip the feedback. Not sure how to fix the Turnout Table though. To simplify my remaining question, I used Loconet Sim and just assigned a DIRECT Feedback loconet turnout to the panel. When I set the Continuing Route Turnout State to THROWN in Layout Editor, the Turnout Table shows THROWN when the layout editor panel shows CLOSED. Checking "Inverted" in the Turnout Table does not resolve this. What do I need to do so that the Layout Editor Panel and the Turnout Table agree?

Robin


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave Sand
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:35 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] layout editor continuing route signal help needed

Robin,

The secret is to treat turnout closed/thrown as closed/thrown everywhere except in the continuing route setting and the wiring at the switch machine. If feedback is enabled it needs to wired accordingly. This works perfectly with Tortoise style machines and two sensor feedback. If the machine moves the wrong way, flip wires 1 and 8. If the feedback is wrong, reverse the feedback wires OR reverse the feedback sensors in the turnout table entry.

The feedback process might be different for EXACT.


Dave Sand

On Sep 23, 2019, at 10:59 AM, Robin Becker <rbgroups@...> wrote:

Hi. I have a panel with signals set up in Layout Editor and generally everything works fine. The only issue so far is with 2 turnouts where the main line takes the diverging (THROWN) route. On the main approaching each turnout is a double head searchlight signal mast. In order to get the top head on the mast to represent the main (diverging) route, I have set “Continuing Route Turnout State” to THROWN. That works as desired on the panel diagram – when the turnout is shown on the panel as aligned for the diverging route, the signal shows Green over Red (for example), and when the turnout on the panel is shown aligned for the normal route the signal shows Red over Green (for example).

The problem is with the relationship of the state of the turnout on the panel with the physical turnout state on the layout and as shown in the Turnout Table. It appears that setting “Continuing Route Turnout State” to THROWN causes the displayed turnout state on the panel (and the turnout state used for calculating the signal aspects) to be _opposite_ the state of the physical turnout. So now when the turnout on the layout is set to CLOSED, the turnout on the panel is shown as THROWN and signals are set as if the turnout is THROWN.

If I now check the “Inverted” checkbox for the turnout in the Turnout Table then the turnout state on the panel matches the turnout state on the layout. The Turnout Table now shows the opposite state from the physical turnout however. This means that anyone using the Turnout page in Engine Driver sees the wrong state. This is very confusing but perhaps could be managed.

There is a second reason I’d like to avoid inverting the turnout if at all possible. These physical turnouts have EXACT feedback. When the turnout is actuated, the feedback state in JMRI changes to INCONSISTENT while the turnout is in motion. This INCONSISTENT feedback state is useful since it causes all signals around that turnout to go to RED until the turnout reaches its final position. Unfortunately the INCONSISTENT state disappears when the Invert option is selected: turnouts with Invert checked only show CLOSED and THROWN.

Am I missing something in setting up Layout Editor for this condition? Would appreciate guidance if you are familiar with this case. Thanks.

(FYI I was running 4.16 but updated to the latest test build and see no change in this behavior.)

Robin

Robin Becker
San Diego, CA