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Hi All



I just spent a couple of days going through Robert Bucklew's Quaker Valley
Lines Panel Pro tutorial (Very well done) parts one and two. After sticking
to the tutorial I paused at the end of Part 2 and figured I'd repeat part 1
and part 2 on a portion of my Living Room Layout. Then I ran into a block
detection issue, the block sensors seem to flash on when a train enters and
again when it exits, but isn't persistent so I've been unable to mark the
block occupied on the panel.



My Layout is NCE SB5, via the USB Interface, My sensors are BD20's connected
to an AUI01. My firmware is of the proper version (7.3.3) and my sensors are
being read from the AUI by JMRI. The JMRI is Version 3.6-r24520 running on
Centos 6.5 and Java 1.7 (60).



The USB interface is CAB 8

The AUI interface is CAB9 (per the SB5 Documentation)



The indications are that the sensors are triggering on entry and exit of a
block, each train passage the correct block transitions are lighting up. Is
this proper behavior for these devices? If yes how do I capture the entry
and exit of a train from each block? This will necessarily need to be
direction agnostic.



I've attached the Panel XML files as a zip archive so virus scanners won't
delete the XML and will be greatful for your advice.



Thanks in advance.



Martin Ozolins

mdozolins@...



"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur

This doesnt seem to be a JMRI issue. The block detector will stay active as long as
something that draws current (locos, conducting wheel sets, etc) is within the block.
The detector output should remain "high" (voltage-wise) when there is no block activity.
When the block becomes occupied, the detector output will go "low." You can check
this with a volt meter. Are you using BD20's or DBD22's. Ive gotten both to work well
with an AIU and JMRI.


David Richardson
Tucson

David

They are BD20’s with a common ground using inputs 1-4. Four having the same
result doesn’t seem to be a hardware issue. I was trying to Reach NCE today
but they’re website is mostly down. I’m getting a flash on the LED’s on the
AIU that correspond with the JMRI sensor display. But only when the trains
cross the block gaps.

In case it could be a voltage issue (I don’t have a voltmeter handy.), I
swapped out one power lead from 18Ga to 22Ga wire and got a third loop
around the BD20’s coil. It had no impact on the issue. I think I’ll need
a software solution to the problem. Maybe using a memory variable when it
clicks on that resets when it clicks off.

Martin Ozolins
mdozolins@...

"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur

From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 17:05
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] JMRI - NCE Block Detection

?
This doesnt seem to be a JMRI issue. The block detector will stay active as
long as
something that draws current (locos, conducting wheel sets, etc) is within
the block.
The detector output should remain "high" (voltage-wise) when there is no
block activity.
When the block becomes occupied, the detector output will go "low." You can
check
this with a volt meter. Are you using BD20's or DBD22's. Ive gotten both to
work well
with an AIU and JMRI.

David Richardson
Tucson

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]
<jmriusers@...>
To: jmriusers <jmriusers@...>
Sent: Sat, Jun 7, 2014 5:32 pm
Subject: [jmriusers] JMRI - NCE Block Detection

Hi All

I just spent a couple of days going through Robert Bucklew's Quaker Valley
Lines Panel Pro tutorial (Very well done) parts one and two. After sticking
to the tutorial I paused at the end of Part 2 and figured I'd repeat part 1
and part 2 on a portion of my Living Room Layout. Then I ran into a block
detection issue, the block sensors seem to flash on when a train enters and
again when it exits, but isn't persistent so I've been unable to mark the
block occupied on the panel.

My Layout is NCE SB5, via the USB Interface, My sensors are BD20's connected
to an AUI01. My firmware is of the proper version (7.3.3) and my sensors are
being read from the AUI by JMRI. The JMRI is Version 3.6-r24520 running on
Centos 6.5 and Java 1.7 (60).

The USB interface is CAB 8

The AUI interface is CAB9 (per the SB5 Documentation)

The indications are that the sensors are triggering on entry and exit of a
block, each train passage the correct block transitions are lighting up. Is
this proper behavior for these devices? If yes how do I capture the entry
and exit of a train from each block? This will necessarily need to be
direction agnostic.

I've attached the Panel XML files as a zip archive so virus scanners won't
delete the XML and will be greatful for your advice.

Thanks in advance.

Martin Ozolins

mdozolins@...

Martin,



Yes there are two sensor messages, one for 'sensor on' and then when leaving
the block 'sensor off'. Now if you watch the sensor table you should see the
sensor stay on while the loco is in the block. And if your block has the
sensor listed it should also show the block on the panel. BUT the default
colors for 'active, inactive, alternate' in a block are all black. At least
it was, the default colors may have changed but unless you check and make
sure you have different colors, you won't see if on the panel.



-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team

www.jmri.org

www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org

www.cnymod.com

www.syracusemodelrr.org

Thanks Ken.



When I watch the sensor table the sensor goes active for a few seconds then
inactive. I set the active track color to red and that goes on for a few
seconds then inactive. If I stop and Idle a locomotive on a block it still
goes inactive after the delay set sensor message.



The system is also sending an extremely large amount of status requests to
the AIU. Most are coming back 3FFF, until a sensor trip then the numbers
change.



Could my Logix Setup Be at fault, there don't seem to be many hardware
options on the AIU or the BD20's but the documentation for them is a bit
thin. J



Martin Ozolins

<mailto:mdozolins@...> mdozolins@...



"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur



From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 19:27
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: RE: [jmriusers] JMRI - NCE Block Detection





Martin,

Yes there are two sensor messages, one for 'sensor on' and then when leaving
the block 'sensor off'. Now if you watch the sensor table you should see the
sensor stay on while the loco is in the block. And if your block has the
sensor listed it should also show the block on the panel. BUT the default
colors for 'active, inactive, alternate' in a block are all black. At least
it was, the default colors may have changed but unless you check and make
sure you have different colors, you won't see if on the panel.

-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team

www.jmri.org

www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org

www.cnymod.com

www.syracusemodelrr.org

I just did a test and the BD20/AIU are only triggering when a locomotive
crosses a block gap. I have the blocks fully isolated is that correct?



Martin Ozolins

<mailto:mdozolins@...> mdozolins@...



"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur



From: Martin Ozolins [mailto:mdozolins@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 20:39
To: 'jmriusers@...'
Subject: RE: [jmriusers] JMRI - NCE Block Detection



Thanks Ken.



When I watch the sensor table the sensor goes active for a few seconds then
inactive. I set the active track color to red and that goes on for a few
seconds then inactive. If I stop and Idle a locomotive on a block it still
goes inactive after the delay set sensor message.



The system is also sending an extremely large amount of status requests to
the AIU. Most are coming back 3FFF, until a sensor trip then the numbers
change.



Could my Logix Setup Be at fault, there don't seem to be many hardware
options on the AIU or the BD20's but the documentation for them is a bit
thin. J



Martin Ozolins

mdozolins@...



"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur



From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 19:27
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: RE: [jmriusers] JMRI - NCE Block Detection





Martin,

Yes there are two sensor messages, one for 'sensor on' and then when leaving
the block 'sensor off'. Now if you watch the sensor table you should see the
sensor stay on while the loco is in the block. And if your block has the
sensor listed it should also show the block on the panel. BUT the default
colors for 'active, inactive, alternate' in a block are all black. At least
it was, the default colors may have changed but unless you check and make
sure you have different colors, you won't see if on the panel.

-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team

www.jmri.org

www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org

www.cnymod.com

www.syracusemodelrr.org

On Jun 7, 2014, at 6:22 PM, Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers] <jmriusers@...> wrote:

They are BD20’s with a common ground using inputs 1-4. Four having the same
result doesn’t seem to be a hardware issue. I was trying to Reach NCE today
but they’re website is mostly down. I’m getting a flash on the LED’s on the
AIU that correspond with the JMRI sensor display. But only when the trains
cross the block gaps.

Any chance you have more than one feed to those track sections?

Try disconnecting the line from the BD20 to the track. If the the loco still runs in the block, your wiring is providing more than one current path to the block, hence the BD20 isn't seeing all the current.

Bob
--
Bob Jacobsen
rgj1927@...

Nope. There are only 4 feeds to 4 blocks, with 4 BD20's and two turnouts.
Since this was a learning exercise I wanted to eliminate any extraneous
distractions. I'm going to run it with Just the PowerCab in a few minutes to
see if the SB5 is an issue, in which case I'll switch it to booster only
mode.

I'm also going to try my old ThinkPad that has XP on it to see if the 64Bit
Linux is confusing the hardware.

Martin Ozolins
mdozolins@...

"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur

What if this is a hardware/wiring problem? I get the notion that you're convinced
this is a software problem. Perhaps. But you arent checking the output of
the BD20's just in case. Do they stay activated as long as the locos are in the detection block?
A cheap volt meter would give you some answers. You could also wire a LED to the
the BD20 output as explained in the BD20 User's Guide. That should stay lit when the
block is occupied.


David Richardson
Tucson

Well here's a final update for today.



Tested in PowerCab only environment, couldn't communicate with the AIU at
all. Switched it back to the SB5. I had been using the SB3 selection in
preferences, someone at NCE told me to a while back. I noticed there is an
SB5 Choice on the system now, tried it and so far it appears the block
detection problem is history. I'll be testing it more thoroughly on Monday.
LMMRC is having an Ops Session today and Tomorrow so I'm heading to Balboa
Park.



Thanks for the help and have a good day.



Martin Ozolins

<mailto:mdozolins@...> mdozolins@...



"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur



From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 21:49
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: RE: [jmriusers] JMRI - NCE Block Detection





Nope. There are only 4 feeds to 4 blocks, with 4 BD20's and two turnouts.
Since this was a learning exercise I wanted to eliminate any extraneous
distractions. I'm going to run it with Just the PowerCab in a few minutes to
see if the SB5 is an issue, in which case I'll switch it to booster only
mode.

I'm also going to try my old ThinkPad that has XP on it to see if the 64Bit
Linux is confusing the hardware.

Martin Ozolins
mdozolins@...

"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur

-----Original Message-----
From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 21:11
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] JMRI - NCE Block Detection

On Jun 7, 2014, at 6:22 PM, Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]
<jmriusers@...> wrote:

They are BD20's with a common ground using inputs 1-4. Four having the
same result doesn't seem to be a hardware issue. I was trying to Reach
NCE today but they're website is mostly down. I'm getting a flash on
the LED's on the AIU that correspond with the JMRI sensor display. But
only when the trains cross the block gaps.

Any chance you have more than one feed to those track sections?

Try disconnecting the line from the BD20 to the track. If the the loco
still runs in the block, your wiring is providing more than one current path
to the block, hence the BD20 isn't seeing all the current.

Bob
--
Bob Jacobsen
rgj1927@...

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

This track and wiring was freshly installed as a lab for this project. In any case, it seems the detection isn’t initiated by the sensor, the Command node is polling it multiple times a second and I think the (I guess I’d call them drivers) NCE system choices in preferences have been updated for the SB5, I was using the SB3 settings previously per NCE’s instructions. The SB5 choice is working now, we’ll see when I park a bunch of lit passenger coaches all over the layout.



Thnks



Martin Ozolins

<mailto:mdozolins@...> mdozolins@...





"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur



From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 23:31
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] JMRI - NCE Block Detection





What if this is a hardware/wiring problem? I get the notion that you're convinced
this is a software problem. Perhaps. But you arent checking the output of
the BD20's just in case. Do they stay activated as long as the locos are in the detection block?
A cheap volt meter would give you some answers. You could also wire a LED to the
the BD20 output as explained in the BD20 User's Guide. That should stay lit when the
block is occupied.

David Richardson
Tucson

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers] <jmriusers@...>
To: jmriusers <jmriusers@...>
Sent: Sat, Jun 7, 2014 7:22 pm
Subject: RE: [jmriusers] JMRI - NCE Block Detection

David

They are BD20’s with a common ground using inputs 1-4. Four having the same
result doesn’t seem to be a hardware issue. I was trying to Reach NCE today
but they’re website is mostly down. I’m getting a flash on the LED’s on the
AIU that correspond with the JMRI sensor display. But only when the trains
cross the block gaps.

In case it could be a voltage issue (I don’t have a voltmeter handy.), I
swapped out one power lead from 18Ga to 22Ga wire and got a third loop
around the BD20’s coil. It had no impact on the issue. I think I’ll need
a software solution to the problem. Maybe using a memory variable when it
clicks on that resets when it clicks off.

Martin Ozolins
mdozolins@...







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Martin,



I would turn off the Logix for now while we figure out what is happening.



Now for each block is there a single feed wire going through the BD20 that
then goes to the block. All the current for that block must feed through the
BD20. Your symptom sounds as if there were other feed wires to the block so
only some of the current is passing through the BD20. The test for this is
disconnect the feed wire through the BD20 and see that the track block is
now dead. If not, current is getting there somehow.



-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team

www.jmri.org

www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org

www.cnymod.com

www.syracusemodelrr.org

Wait..You are trying to troubleshoot electronic devices with out a meter???

Come on now!!!!

Sent from me.
On Jun 7, 2014 8:22 PM, "Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]" <
jmriusers@...> wrote:

David

They are BD20’s with a common ground using inputs 1-4. Four having the same
result doesn’t seem to be a hardware issue. I was trying to Reach NCE today
but they’re website is mostly down. I’m getting a flash on the LED’s on the
AIU that correspond with the JMRI sensor display. But only when the trains
cross the block gaps.

In case it could be a voltage issue (I don’t have a voltmeter handy.), I
swapped out one power lead from 18Ga to 22Ga wire and got a third loop
around the BD20’s coil. It had no impact on the issue. I think I’ll need
a software solution to the problem. Maybe using a memory variable when it
clicks on that resets when it clicks off.

Martin Ozolins
mdozolins@...

"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur

From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 17:05
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] JMRI - NCE Block Detection


This doesnt seem to be a JMRI issue. The block detector will stay active as
long as
something that draws current (locos, conducting wheel sets, etc) is within
the block.
The detector output should remain "high" (voltage-wise) when there is no
block activity.
When the block becomes occupied, the detector output will go "low." You can
check
this with a volt meter. Are you using BD20's or DBD22's. Ive gotten both to
work well
with an AIU and JMRI.

David Richardson
Tucson

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]
<jmriusers@...>
To: jmriusers <jmriusers@...>
Sent: Sat, Jun 7, 2014 5:32 pm
Subject: [jmriusers] JMRI - NCE Block Detection

Hi All

I just spent a couple of days going through Robert Bucklew's Quaker Valley
Lines Panel Pro tutorial (Very well done) parts one and two. After sticking
to the tutorial I paused at the end of Part 2 and figured I'd repeat part 1
and part 2 on a portion of my Living Room Layout. Then I ran into a block
detection issue, the block sensors seem to flash on when a train enters and
again when it exits, but isn't persistent so I've been unable to mark the
block occupied on the panel.

My Layout is NCE SB5, via the USB Interface, My sensors are BD20's
connected
to an AUI01. My firmware is of the proper version (7.3.3) and my sensors
are
being read from the AUI by JMRI. The JMRI is Version 3.6-r24520 running on
Centos 6.5 and Java 1.7 (60).

The USB interface is CAB 8

The AUI interface is CAB9 (per the SB5 Documentation)

The indications are that the sensors are triggering on entry and exit of a
block, each train passage the correct block transitions are lighting up. Is
this proper behavior for these devices? If yes how do I capture the entry
and exit of a train from each block? This will necessarily need to be
direction agnostic.

I've attached the Panel XML files as a zip archive so virus scanners won't
delete the XML and will be greatful for your advice.

Thanks in advance.

Martin Ozolins

mdozolins@...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ken:



I'm still working on the panels. They work after a fashion. I was doing
some searches on "no neighbor error, because that and delay timer errors are
pouring into the logs. I came across a script that I believe you wrote.
DebounceSensor.py, I think that may help clean up some of the issues. Do
you have a howto sheet for that?



I also discovered that the BD20's I have are a new version BD20a all of
NCE's documents talk about desensitizing the detectors, I think I'm having
the opposite problem. That might be part of the issue. I'm going to get on
the phone with NCE tomorrow about this, I need to order some more stuff from
them anyway. The AIU definitely didn't work with the PowerCab it's been
better since I switched to the SB5 System in JMRI preferences. I also
have a mini panel from NCE to try out, that may be more viable than the AIU.



Switching to Linux, is there any particular reason you wanted to hide the
users files? The default directory being hidden missed being seen. Since a
lot of clubs use this software it may be prudent to fork a database driven
version, the missing backup files and the occasional exit before saving
seems endemic. Performance could be improved too. J I may take a pass at
the database this summer. This is all GPL?



Thanks for the help.



Doug:



This isn't real electronics and I have a test light. J To do anything
really useful I'd need an oscilloscope to figure out why the decoders have
selective hearing sometimes.



Gotta get to my Ops Session today. Gonna play on this layout now:
with

at the San Diego Model Rail Road Museum. I love
steam era ops sessions.



Have a good day.



Martin Ozolins

<mailto:mdozolins@...> mdozolins@...

(760)405 4812



"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur



From: jmriusers@... [mailto:jmriusers@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 04:13
To: jmriusers@...
Subject: RE: [jmriusers] JMRI - NCE Block Detection





Martin,

I would turn off the Logix for now while we figure out what is happening.

Now for each block is there a single feed wire going through the BD20 that
then goes to the block. All the current for that block must feed through the
BD20. Your symptom sounds as if there were other feed wires to the block so
only some of the current is passing through the BD20. The test for this is
disconnect the feed wire through the BD20 and see that the track block is
now dead. If not, current is getting there somehow.

-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team

www.jmri.org

www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org

www.cnymod.com

www.syracusemodelrr.org

Doug,

There is a sensor debounce facility now built into JMRI, in the sensor table, there is a tick button at the bottom of the screen label "Show Sensor Debounce Information", once that is selected you can set up the debounce timers for each sensor, or set them to use the Global option which can be configured under the "Defaults" menu item.

Regards
Kevin

---In jmriusers@..., <mdozolins@...> wrote :

I'm still working on the panels. They work after a fashion. I was doing
some searches on "no neighbor error, because that and delay timer errors are
pouring into the logs. I came across a script that I believe you wrote.
DebounceSensor.py, I think that may help clean up some of the issues. Do
you have a howto sheet for that?

Power Cab V1.28 does not support AIU commands. Power Cab V1.65 does. The SB5 uses V1.65 firmware.

Mini Panel is not suitable for multiple block detection. AIU is the correct device to use.

You need to isolate the problem to hardware or software.

You need to shut down JMRI and just watch the indicator LEDs on the AIU. If they only flash once and do not stay on, you have a problem with the detection side of things. If they stay on all the time there is a train in the block, you have a software problem.
--
Dave in Australia

Hi Tech Suppert



Trying to upload a bug request relating to undeleted Signal Mast Logic but
my e-mail address appears invalid - but is not.



What procedure to use now?



Regards



Doug in Nottingham

The SB5 is a.different animal. It does read.the AIU

. I haven't read any thing in the mini panel documents that would prevent it reporting multiple sensors back to JMRI. It is worth an experiment to empirically know one way or another.


Martin

To: jmriusers@...
From: jmriusers@...
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 06:52:08 +1000
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] JMRI - NCE Block Detection


























Power Cab V1.28 does not support AIU commands. Power Cab V1.65 does. The SB5 uses V1.65 firmware.



Mini Panel is not suitable for multiple block detection. AIU is the correct device to use.



You need to isolate the problem to hardware or software.



You need to shut down JMRI and just watch the indicator LEDs on the AIU. If they only flash once and do not stay on, you have a problem with the detection side of things. If they stay on all the time there is a train in the block, you have a software problem.
--

Dave in Australia



On 09/06/2014, at 12:17 AM, "Martin Ozolins mdozolins@... [jmriusers]"<jmriusers@...> wrote:

The AIU definitely didn't work with the PowerCab it's been

better since I switched to the SB5 System in JMRI preferences. I also

have a mini panel from NCE to try out, that may be more viable than the AIU.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Martin,



The reason the Linux directory for user stuff is a 'dot' directory is that
is standard for Linux on where you place the 'application settings'.



I would suggest setting up a test track with just two blocks and the BD20's
going to the AIU. See if the right LEDs come on and stay on. No JMRI
connected. This will help you fiddle with the sensitivity.



Which version of the PowerCab software do you have?? Is it the 1.65 or
1.28??



-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team

www.jmri.org

www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org

www.cnymod.com

www.syracusemodelrr.org

I've kept the DebounceSensor script around for cases where you need to
debounce sensors but still have access to the 'raw' status. Tumble down and
direction sensing logic has some tricks (google traffic direction stick
relay) where looking at the raw status while also looking at the signals and
the 'delayed' by the debounce are kind of cool.



-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team

www.jmri.org

www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org

www.cnymod.com

www.syracusemodelrr.org