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I have been a model railroader for 52 years, and a DCC user since the turn of the millennium (not a newbie).? Started with an NCE Power Pro, it gave up the ghost after 20+ years, so I bought a TCS CS-105 about 9 months ago.? I am, however, new to JMRI.? I downloaded it about 3 months ago, and started exploring OperationsPro to get switch lists generated.? This has been a formidable task, it is a very complicated program, and I put a hold on it in order to start using DecoderPro, which seemed to be relatively intuitive and a heckuva a lot simpler than programming with the throttle.? What I have found is very strange, I have also posted on the TCS users group but gotten very little in reply.
I'm not picky about decoders, and use a variety of them from various manufacturers, mainly Digitrax, NCE, and TCS.? I don't think this is a decoder problem, as it has happened with all of them, both hardwired and plugged varieties.? I will test a new decoder with an NCE DTK to make sure it is functional before installation.? After installation, the loco goes on the programming track, and it accepts programming just fine and the data is saved.? Then it goes on the rails, and operates just fine with the new programming.? But THE NEXT DAY, when I try to run the loco, it will not move.? Often, the lights and sound will work, but sometimes none of it works.? Back to programming track, review programming, save it again, and back on the rails with zero results - does not run.? CS-105 has worked well and has been used in several op sessions with no problems.? Since this has only started happening after I started using DecoderPro, I feel like there is something wrong there, either in the program or how I am using it.? I pulled the decoders out of the locos and put them on the DTK - no motor control on any of them.? Decoder goes in the trash.? I have spent well over $200 in new decoders in the past 3 months, and THEY all get fried.? Voltage on rails is 14.8 - 15.1 volts per RRampmeter.? I am about at the end of my rope with this problem.? Has anyone else experienced this, and what was the cure?? ANY suggestions are welcome, and thanks!
?
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One thing that will cause what you're seeing is if the locomotive has been set up in a consist, then separated from the consist without deleting the consist. I believe it's CV19 that needs to be cleared. (Somebody else can verify if I'm wrong on this.) I've been caught on this a few times where I removed a consisted loco from the layout without deleting the consist first.
Maybe you didn't set up the loco in a consist but a glitch occurred that set CV19 accidentally. Decoder Pro will let you check this quickly.
Rick Jones
You know you're getting old when older relatives feel
comfortable telling sex jokes around you.
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On 11/29/2024 7:23 PM, dkwoomer via groups.io wrote: I have been a model railroader for 52 years, and a DCC user since the turn of the millennium (not a newbie).? Started with an NCE Power Pro, it gave up the ghost after 20+ years, so I bought a TCS CS-105 about 9 months ago.? I am, however, new to JMRI.? I downloaded it about 3 months ago, and started exploring OperationsPro to get switch lists generated. This has been a formidable task, it is a very complicated program, and I put a hold on it in order to start using DecoderPro, which seemed to be relatively intuitive and a heckuva a lot simpler than programming with the throttle.? What I have found is very strange, I have also posted on the TCS users group but gotten very little in reply.
I'm not picky about decoders, and use a variety of them from various manufacturers, mainly Digitrax, NCE, and TCS.? I don't think this is a decoder problem, as it has happened with all of them, both hardwired and plugged varieties.? I will test a new decoder with an NCE DTK to make sure it is functional before installation.? After installation, the loco goes on the programming track, and it accepts programming just fine and the data is saved.? Then it goes on the rails, and operates just fine with the new programming.? But THE NEXT DAY, when I try to run the loco, it will not move.? Often, the lights and sound will work, but sometimes none of it works.? Back to programming track, review programming, save it again, and back on the rails with zero results - does not run. CS-105 has worked well and has been used in several op sessions with no problems.? Since this has only started happening after I started using DecoderPro, I feel like there is something wrong there, either in the program or how I am using it.? I pulled the decoders out of the locos and put them on the DTK - no motor control on any of them.? Decoder goes in the trash.? I have spent well over $200 in new decoders in the past 3 months, and THEY all get fried.? Voltage on rails is 14.8 - 15.1 volts per RRampmeter.? I am about at the end of my rope with this problem. Has anyone else experienced this, and what was the cure?? ANY suggestions are welcome, and thanks!
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I had something similar happen with 5-9-1.? I had several decoders scramble during a session.? While re-configuring with 5-9-1, the decoder would suddenly stop responding during a second compare all.? After this happened to the? seventh or eighth decoder I had begun to suspect JMRI.? I cut my losses and re-installed 5-7-9, and have had no further incidents like that occur on the programing track.? With 5-7-9 I was able to recover all but three of the affected decoders, which are remaining quite stubborn and are still candidates for replacement.
Toshiba laptop Windows 8.1 NCE system NCE decoders
Rick
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I don't think JMRI can destroy the decoder hardware, but it can mess up the firmware. JMRI only sends commands to your DCC command station, which then communicates with the decoder.
Have you tried resetting your decoders to factory settings with CV8=8 (or similar)?
It could also be a problem with a different specification of the number of speed steps (14 or 28/128) between the DCC command station and the locomotive decoder. The digital commands in the two modes are different.
?
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I have a switching layout, and rarely consist.? But I have checked CV19 on all these decoders, it has consistently remained at 0 and was not changed.? Decoders have all been reset multiple times with no results. I will check the speed step settings.
On Sat, Nov 30, 2024 at 2:20, uligg100 via groups.io <uligg100@...> wrote: I don't think JMRI can destroy the decoder hardware, but it can mess up the firmware. JMRI only sends commands to your DCC command station, which then communicates with the decoder.
Have you tried resetting your decoders to factory settings with CV8=8 (or similar)?
It could also be a problem with a different specification of the number of speed steps (14 or 28/128) between the DCC command station and the locomotive decoder. The digital commands in the two modes are different.
?
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Are you referring to different versions of JMRI?? I am still trying to learn JMRI and not too familiar with the different releases.? If I decide to install an older version, how do ili get rid of the defective one, or is it automatic?
On Sat, Nov 30, 2024 at 6:52, David /Karen Woomer <dkwoomer@...> wrote: I have a switching layout, and rarely consist.? But I have checked CV19 on all these decoders, it has consistently remained at 0 and was not changed.? Decoders have all been reset multiple times with no results. I will check the speed step settings. On Sat, Nov 30, 2024 at 2:20, uligg100 via groups.io <uligg100@...> wrote: I don't think JMRI can destroy the decoder hardware, but it can mess up the firmware. JMRI only sends commands to your DCC command station, which then communicates with the decoder.
Have you tried resetting your decoders to factory settings with CV8=8 (or similar)?
It could also be a problem with a different specification of the number of speed steps (14 or 28/128) between the DCC command station and the locomotive decoder. The digital commands in the two modes are different.
?
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I have checked speed steps on all the non-working decoders, they are all set t0 28/128.
My JMRI version is 5.4+R9005ecb4ac.
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David /KarenWoomer writes in part:
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"Then it goes on the rails, and operates just fine with the new programming.? But THE NEXT DAY, when I try to run the loco, it will not move.? Often, the lights and sound will work, but sometimes none of it works.? Back to programming track, review programming, save it again, and back on the rails with zero results - does not run.? CS-105 has worked well and has been used in several op sessions with no problems."
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?The first things I would check/review are the instructions for the decoders involved.? Current generation decoders have a variety of "start up" options, and they don't all do it the same way.? Lots of "it won't run" problems on the various DCC lists have been resolved when the OP takes the time to read, understand, and follow the features the manufacturer has provided in the decoders.??
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I'm not saying that's the problem in this case, but it costs nothing but a bit of time to test this out.
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"I pulled the decoders out of the locos and put them on the DTK - no motor control on any of them."
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The same vendor specific features I mentioned above might be at play here.
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"Decoder goes in the trash.? I have spent well over $200 in new decoders in the past 3 months, and THEY all get fried."
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If you haven't emptied that trash yet I'd dig real deep and pull those decoders out.? They may still be good.
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Decoder Pro can't do _anything to your decoders your DCC command station can't do.? JMRI tells your command station what standard DCC commands to send to the decoder, both to program the decoder and operate it.
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Best regards,
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Steve
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Steve Haas
Snoqualmie, WA
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I would agree with Steve and others, odds of the decoders being bad are extremely low. Having been around DCC for 25 years I’ve never seen or heard of a case where a decoder was truly failed by faulty decoder programming. All reports pointed to other issues. ? -Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
? ?
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I have been? through the manuals on all these decoders, and find nothing out of line.? Been through most of the CVs on them, also.
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On Saturday, November 30, 2024 at 01:31:15 PM CST, Steve Haas via groups.io <goatfisher2@...> wrote:
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David /KarenWoomer writes in part:
?
"Then it goes on the rails, and operates just fine with the new programming.? But THE NEXT DAY, when I try to run the loco, it will not move.? Often, the lights and sound will work, but sometimes none of it works.? Back to programming track, review programming, save it again, and back on the rails with zero results - does not run.? CS-105 has worked well and has been used in several op sessions with no problems."
?
?The first things I would check/review are the instructions for the decoders involved.? Current generation decoders have a variety of "start up" options, and they don't all do it the same way.? Lots of "it won't run" problems on the various DCC lists have been resolved when the OP takes the time to read, understand, and follow the features the manufacturer has provided in the decoders.??
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I'm not saying that's the problem in this case, but it costs nothing but a bit of time to test this out.
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"I pulled the decoders out of the locos and put them on the DTK - no motor control on any of them."
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The same vendor specific features I mentioned above might be at play here.
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"Decoder goes in the trash.? I have spent well over $200 in new decoders in the past 3 months, and THEY all get fried."
?
If you haven't emptied that trash yet I'd dig real deep and pull those decoders out.? They may still be good.
?
Decoder Pro can't do _anything to your decoders your DCC command station can't do.? JMRI tells your command station what standard DCC commands to send to the decoder, both to program the decoder and operate it.
?
Best regards,
?
Steve
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Steve Haas
Snoqualmie, WA
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? “I had something similar happen with 5-9-1.? I had several decoders scramble during a session.? While re-configuring with 5-9-1, the decoder would suddenly stop responding during a second compare all.? After this happened to the? seventh or eighth decoder I had begun to suspect JMRI.? I cut my losses and re-installed 5-7-9, and have had no further incidents like that occur on the programing track.? With 5-7-9 I was able to recover all but three of the affected decoders, which are remaining quite stubborn and are still candidates for replacement.” ? - For starters, did you review and follow the instructions in the Release Announcement for this version?? Specifically, the comment about changes in the serial libraries and the request to contact the developers if any problems were encountered.
- Not likely this is a problem inherent to JMRI.
- One of the developers would have to confirm, but other than the potential issues discussed in the release notes this is unlikely to be an issue with the communication between JMRI, the computer, and the DCC system(s) in use.? If there were, this list would have heard of this complaint loud and often,? This hasn’t been the case, so it is more likely “local” issues are more likely the problem.
- Over the years, the development community has created a very large set of test cases and runs them on a wide variety of hardware before the software is released. ?An issue such as this is unlikely to be missed.
- Neither JMRI nor its developers can control the environment it runs in/on.?? Before one throughs rocks, one should make sure that all potential causes of problems _external_? should be eliminated.
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? i.??????? Was the download monitored to be sure it was complete and successful? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ii.??????? Was the installation completed and successful? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? iii.?????? Were the release notes read and understood prior to the download and install?? Were recommendation actions taken? - I’m not saying it is impossible for this to be a problem with JMRI, but other than the possible serial library issue already discussed in the release notes this is highly unlikely to be a JMRI problem.
- It’s highly unlikely any of those decoders need replacement.? But if they do, it is not due to JMRI:
- JMRI doesn’t talk to your decoders, it talks to your command station.? Your command station formats the commands sent to your decoder.
- Instead of trashing them, put then aside for a later time and try them again.?
? Best regards, ? Steve ? Steve Haas Snoqualmie, WA
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uligg100 comments: ? “I don't think JMRI can destroy the decoder hardware, but it can mess up the firmware.” ? Nope.? By itself, JMRI is not capable of accomplishing either. ??Read on. ? “JMRI only sends commands to your DCC command station, which then communicates with the decoder.” ? Correct.? And that’s why JMRI can’t destroy either the hardware, or mess up the firmware. ? JMRI can only tell the command station what it wants the command station to do: ? - It is up to the command station to translate the data sent from computer to the command station into NMRA defined DCC packets.
- There is no NMRA DCC packet definition to “Destroy Decoder Hardware”, not is thee a packet definition to “Mess Up The Firmware”.
? ? “Have you tried resetting your decoders to factory settings with CV8=8 (or similar)?” ? Attempting a reset is a good idea, but not likely to succeed if the software is installed/updated without carefully following the release notes/upgrade instructions, properly connecting the computer in question to the command station, properly connecting the command station to the main/program track, and reading _and understanding and following_ the instructions. ? “It could also be a problem with a different specification of the number of speed steps (14 or 28/128) between the DCC command station and the locomotive decoder. The digital commands in the two modes are different.” ? Correct.? ? - There are two separate speed packet command packets defined in the standard:
- The original Speed Packet format that supports 14/28 speed steps.? A decoder will look at the 14/28 step bit in CV 29 to determine if a speed packet of that format should be interpreted a 14 vs 28 step instruction.
- The extended (?) packet format that is to be interpreted as a 128 step command.? This packet is sent as a speed step command by the command station.? If received by a decoder that supports 128 steps, it will interpret it as a 128 speed step command.
- Different DCC systems have differences when it comes to 128 speed step management.? It would be a good idea for the individual owner to read up on how their system of choice works.
- I’m a 20 year NCE user, so I’ll use them to illustrate how even they are different.
- The PowerHouse/PowerPro/Ramtrax architecture tracks up to 512(?) decoder address.? The CS tracks which speed packet to send to each of those addresses.
- The PowerCab and the other systems utilizing _that_ firmware implementation either send 14/28 speed step commands or 128 speed step commands to _ALL_ decoder addresses – they all get14/28 or they get 128 step packets.
? Best regards, ? Steve ? Steve Haas Snoqualmie, WA
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David /Karen Woomer further inquires: ? “Are you referring to different versions of JMRI?? I am still trying to learn JMRI and not too familiar with the different releases.” The best place to learn about the different versions of JMRI is to look at the release notes each time a new version is released. The releases are cumulative, and only extremely rarely is there a need to downgrade/drop back a release. “If I decide to install an older version, how do I get rid of the defective one, or is it automatic?” It’s doable, if need be, but there are prerequisites to be followed.? These include backing up your personal JMRI data files if necessary, and referring to the list of upgrade notes included/pointed to by the release notes. It should be done only under very specific circumstances for very specific reasons. You are a long way from that. ?The issues that prompted your original query can be resolved without any need to down/back grade to an earlier release. Best regards, ? Steve Steve Haas Snoqualmie, WA
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This is the most frustrating and seemingly impossible-to-resolve problem that I have ever experienced in my 5 decades of model railroading.? I have read all your responses (thank you very much, guys) and done everything you have suggested, yet the problem still persists? Most of my locos are down (the ones I tried to tweak with JMRI).? I can run solo, but having an op session with my buddies is impossible.? Perhaps the problem is that I am NOT a computer nerd.? I understand DCC pretty well after 2+ decades of use, but I have never been a computer whiz (most of what I do with computers is cuss at them...).
What I have gathered from your replies is that this is not a JMRI problem.? I can accept that.? I also don't believe this is a decoder problem, as many of you have observed, and because so many of them, both older and newer ones, from differing manufacturers, are involved.? (I have decided that I will NOT buy any more new decoders until this problem is resolved, if ever).? That leaves the CS-105, and responses on the TCS forum were few and unhelpful.? I've been told not to throw out the decoders, that they're "probably" still good (some have been thrown out, but some have been recovered), and that the problem is fixable - but I have not been told what is wrong, how or why it happened, or what the fix is.? I'm obviously not going to find the answer on my own.? I feel like I have only two solutions:? 1)? pitch the CS-105 and buy a new NCE system, as my old NCE command station worked flawlessly until it just got too old (NCE told me that the cost to fix it would exceed the cost of a new system), or 2)? tear down the layout and sell my equipment, cuz I'm NOT gonna run without DCC.? Being recently retired, I'm now on a fixed income, so buying a new command station will take some time to save up for it.? I have reviewed the manual for the CS-105, and again, can find nothing that I am doing "wrong".? Guess I just need to flip a coin :)
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David W, ? I’d say the CS-105 is a fine system. But I’m trying to figure a way to isolate what’s going wrong somehow. Please give me a few clues: ? - What were the specific vendor/model/versions of decoders you have had issue with?
- Which install of JMRI are you using?
- Which computer OS are you using?
- Which way are you interfacing JMRI with the command station?
- Have you tried doing a factory reset on any of the problem decoders?
- Do any of the decoders support RailCom? With the CS-105 you have that option available for programming.
- How long has this been going on?
? ? -Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team
? ?
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David
Before you spend cash on a 'maybe it's this, maybe it's that'
scenario, maybe tell us where you are, and someone might be
close?? Eyes-on is ALWAYS a better approach than email-based
debugging.? Seriously, in my opinion you're overlooking something
fundamental, and it will be evident to a fresh set of eyes.
Blair
On 01/12/2024 14:32, David /Karen
Woomer via groups.io wrote:
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Show quoted text
This is the most frustrating and seemingly
impossible-to-resolve problem that I have ever experienced in my
5 decades of model railroading.? I have read all your responses
(thank you very much, guys) and done everything you have
suggested, yet the problem still persists? Most of my locos are
down (the ones I tried to tweak with JMRI).? I can run solo, but
having an op session with my buddies is impossible.? Perhaps the
problem is that I am NOT a computer nerd.? I understand DCC
pretty well after 2+ decades of use, but I have never been a
computer whiz (most of what I do with computers is cuss at
them...).
What I have gathered from your replies is that this is not a
JMRI problem.? I can accept that.? I also don't believe this is
a decoder problem, as many of you have observed, and because so
many of them, both older and newer ones, from differing
manufacturers, are involved.? (I have decided that I will NOT
buy any more new decoders until this problem is resolved, if
ever).? That leaves the CS-105, and responses on the TCS forum
were few and unhelpful.? I've been told not to throw out the
decoders, that they're "probably" still good (some have been
thrown out, but some have been recovered), and that the problem
is fixable - but I have not been told what is wrong, how or why
it happened, or what the fix is.? I'm obviously not going to
find the answer on my own.? I feel like I have only two
solutions:? 1)? pitch the CS-105 and buy a new NCE system, as my
old NCE command station worked flawlessly until it just got too
old (NCE told me that the cost to fix it would exceed the cost
of a new system), or 2)? tear down the layout and sell my
equipment, cuz I'm NOT gonna run without DCC.? Being recently
retired, I'm now on a fixed income, so buying a new command
station will take some time to save up for it.? I have reviewed
the manual for the CS-105, and again, can find nothing that I am
doing "wrong".? Guess I just need to flip a coin :)
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Hi David,
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I am very sympathetic to your situation. Others have provided excellent advice re some of the things that can trip us up (CV19, speed steps for example).
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Given that
- you are very experienced with DCC and NCE
- the CS-105 is an excellent command station but is new to you
- this is happening with a variety of decoders
- the other new aspect is your use of DecoderPro
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I have to expect that it may be something relatively simple in your use of DecoderPro and the CS-105. Blair's suggestion of finding a "buddy" is an excellent one for this type of situation.
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I gather there are three elements at play here - DecoderPro, command station, throttle ?--- your programming set up (DecoderPro and CS-105), your operating set up (CS-105 and a throttle). ?I have to wonder if in your testing one of the three is not in sync with the others once you end one session and begin another.
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I don't believe you have told us what throttle you are using. Are you using a TCS throttle? or an prior NCE throttle? Have you tried the WiThrottle in DecoderPro?
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Like others I am very optimistic that your decoders are fine. But they could easily be a state that doesn't match your expectation. That said, if you have been successful at truly resetting the decoder should be able to start from "ground zero" -- e.g. address "3" and confirm communication with the decoder.
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If you can't arrange for some in-person support, Ken's suggestion of giving us the details of each part of your set up and each step you take may lead us to finding the small thing that is tripping everything up.
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Best of luck,
John Geddes
Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Rick Jones
Rick Uhlenkott
@_Uli_
Ken Cameron