开云体育

I don't see why you say it was rushed.脗听 they took about a year to pass it.


From: "KenSP@..." <KenSP@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare

脗听
Pre-condition is interesting.

If you do not buy insurance and pay the fine, the day you find out you have cancer, you buy insurance.脗听 The insurance company can only charge you a premium of three times what it charges others of your age.脗听 After you are cured, you drop your insurance and go back to merely paying the fine.脗听 The insurance company will have to cover this loss by raising premiums on the others that have stayed in the plan.

I would have rather see the government force all insurance companies to participate in a pool for those that have pre-condition and if necessary supplement payments to the pool to keep those who have a previous condition covered and pay a reasonable premium. Also, I believe all children should have health care coverage and should have been placed under Medicare and Medicaid. Who would argue against this? It could have been covered by the $750 billion taken out of these programs. Then I would like see the government proceed to dealing with each issue separately in a thoughtful manner.

What I don't like about the ACA脗听is that it was rushed and forced through without thought and consideration.脗听 People believe that it is going to reduce premiums, The above example shows that it will not. Allowing children to be on a parents plan has increased everyone's insurance so that a few can get a benefit. My approach wouldnot脗听have increase the cost and perhaps reduced premiums.

The ACA脗听was sold on the basis that it would reduce health insurance costs and not that it was a plan solely to cover those who have no insurance.

----- Original Message -----
From: Sheila Beaudry脗听
Date: Saturday, July 27, 2013 11:33 pm
Subject: Re: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare
To: "ibmpensionissues@..."

No, it shows the disinformation脗听and fear campaign against it is
working.脗听 Plus if you actually ask people about specific things
that are in the ACA脗听they do like it and want it.脗听 Personally I
would rather have a single payer plan.脗听 When you add the
liberals who would rather have a single payer plan to the
conservatives who don't like changing the current healthcare脗听
system, you get a larger per cent.脗听 This is what happens when
you have a law that is a compromise, neither side really likes
it.脗听 It has a lot of good things in it though:脗听 you can get
coverage with pre-existing conditions, no more ceiling limits,
kids can stay on parents plan till 26, more people will have
coverage, helps people who can't afford it to get
insurance,脗听will reduce uncovered people getting expensive care
in emergency room脗听which脗听in the past has脗听increased everyone
else's costs.脗听 I don't think it is perfect, but it is a good
start and changes can be made in the future if
needed to tweak it.脗听


From: "zimowski@..."
To: ibmpensionissues@...脗听
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:34 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive
Consequences From Obamacare

脗听
The CBS poll is not a FOX poll - precisely the reason I cited it
first. You cannot dispute the fact that the most recent opinion
polls clearly demonstrate that most Americans do not want ACA.
The more they understand ACA and the more they realize that
Obama has hoodwinked them once again, the more they wish it
would be repealed.

Your supposed facts are the same talking points that the smooth
talking Obama used to hoodwink so many Americans, including the
press, in the first place. He repeated them over and over again,
just like you are doing, until a critical mass began to believe
him. If you hear it often enough, it must be true. Right? But
now many Americans are beginning to wake up.

As your post clearly indicates, you think that talking points,
repeated as nauseum, are facts. And, you think that browbeating
is debating. These are the same tactics that Obama, the finger
pointer in chief, uses. But they're no longer working on the
majority of Americans, as the polls indicate, and those same
tactics will not work on this board. Most participants here are
just too intelligent to be hoodwinked by you.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, Sue Runyon
wrote:

-----Repeating the same assertions over and over again, and

claiming they are facts over and over again, does not make them
facts. And, browbeating anyone who doesn't agree with you, still
does not make them facts.

Of course it doesn't, and IF I'd been doing that, you'd have a

point. But I haven't been doing that - and so, yet again, you
don't have a point!

On the other hand, claiming that a fact is a fact and not an

opinion, as YOU'VE tried to claim - that facts we're presenting
to you are simply opinions, or the other claim you've made, that
there are alternative facts dependent upon one's beliefs - now
THAT'S a boguw way to behave.

The problematic behavior has been all yours. All yours. You

own it, and I've pointed it out, repeatedly, and I understand
that you don't like that. Too bad, so sad.

And YET AGAIN you strip stuff of its context when you assert

that I was saying that the vast majority of Americans want ACA.
I didn't. You're either being dishonest or showing a stunning
lack of reading comprehension yet again.

The vast majority of Americans want what we got in ACA OR

MORE! And when Americans are polled on the individual aspects of
the program, they like them too.

Now, because of the disinformatiion campaign from the right

side of the political aisle, it doesn't have the amount of
support it would have if people had the actual facts at hand. In
addition, if there wasn't the factor of people hating anything
that Obama and Demcrats did, it'd have even MORE support. As
I've explained, repeatedly, the lack of Republican VOTES for
this isn't equivalent to the lack of support from Republicans
for the things included in the
ACA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>

Geesh, you're easy to debunk.

And then you think it's legitimate to cite a Fox News poll?

REALLY? And after the disinformation campaign from the
rightwing, I'm not surprised at all that many Americans
mistakenly think that ACA will cost them.

THE FACT IS THAT IT WON'T. Again, this is a fact. ACA will

only adversely financially impact the wealthier among us - and,
not strangely enough, this is EXACTLY what I've typed about 6
times in this back and forth!!!

Geez - make it harder next time for me to use your own words

to make you look foolish.

-----Original Message-----
From: zimowski
To: ibmpensionissues
Sent: Sat, Jul 27, 2013 12:42 am
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive

Consequences From Obamacare

Repeating the same assertions over and over again, and

claiming they are facts over and over again, does not make them
facts. And, browbeating anyone who doesn't agree with you, still
does not make them facts.

Let's look at one example. You state: " And yeah, I get that

you're selfish. But our nation, as a whole, isn't, and as we're
a representative democracy, what the majority of Americans want
is what we hopefully, as a nation, provide to our citizens. And
the vast majority of Americans favor this. You don't. You're
entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts."

Now, let's focus on your assertion "The vast majority of

Americans favor this.", which you assert as if it is a fact.
It's not. Here are some facts for you to think about:

CBS News poll finds more Americans than ever want Obamacare repealed

finds-more-americans-than-ever-want-obamacare-repealed/

Note that these poll results were posted on the web on July

24, 2013 at 10:10AM.

(CBS News) A new CBS News poll finds more Americans than ever

want the Affordable Care Act repealed.

According to the poll, 36 percent of Americans want Congress

to expand or keep the health care law while 39 percent want
Congress to repeal it - the highest percentage seen in CBS News
polls. The poll also found a majority of Americans - 54 percent -
disapprove of the health care law, 36 percent of Americans
approve of it and 10 percent said they don't know about it.

The health care law is a chronic issue for the White House,

CBS News political director John Dickerson said on "CBS This
Morning." "There's an operational part to this, which is that
the White House has got to get people to sign up for these
health exchanges, particularly younger, healthier Americans, and
so they are tactically running a campaign much like the
presidential campaign, reaching out, using the techniques of
that campaign to get younger people to sign up for these health
exchanges.">

The poll also found just 13 percent of Americans say the

health care law will personally "help me" while 38 percent said
they believe the law will personally "hurt me."

And then, there's the Fox News Poll:

Voters say repeal ObamaCare, expect new law will cost them

Read more:

poll-voters-say-repeal-obamacare-expect-new-law-will-cost-them/

Note that this article was posted on the web on July 25, 2013.

Voters think ObamaCare is going to hurt their wallet and over

half want the law repealed, according to a new Fox News national poll.

By a large 47-11 percent margin, voters expect the 2010 health

care law will cost them rather than save them money in the
coming year. Another 34 percent think the law won't change their
family's health care costs.

Those negative expectations come at a time when a majority of

the public remains unhappy with the way thing are going in the
country (63 percent dissatisfied), and over half say they
haven't seen any signs the economy has started to turn the
corner (57 percent).

Republicans are three times as likely as Democrats to think

ObamaCare will cost them money over the next year (70 percent
vs. 23 percent). One Democrat in five expects the law will
result in savings for their family (21 percent).

The poll asks people to take an up-or-down vote on ObamaCare:

40 percent say they would vote to keep the law in place, while
just over half -- 53 percent -- would repeal it.

Over half of those under age 45 (51 percent) as well as those

45 and over (56 percent) would vote to repeal ObamaCare.

Most Republicans want the law repealed (by 85-13 percent) and

so do independents (by 65-25 percent). Most Democrats favor
keeping ObamaCare (by 72-21 percent).

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, Sue Runyon

wrote:

Do you REALLY think that you can argue that I provided TOO

MANY FACTS to refute your argument - that attacking the length
of my post is a valid debate tactic? Really? I didn't "ramble"
at all. But thanks for showing everyone that when you can't
refute a thing I've written, you'll resort to making a baseless
personal attack - thanks for outing yourself as an insincere,
insulting debater much better than I could have done myself.

Again, there's not "my" facts and "your" facts.

There are "FACTS". They don't change based upon who is

referencing them. I am baffled as to why you would think that
they do! And I'm baffled about what "facts" you think you've
provided. All YOU provided below was your belief that there is a
large percentage of people who'll be getting insurance on your
dime who were simply unwilling to get coverage before - people
who could have gotten coverage, but just were too
lazy/shiftless/etc to do so.

But that's not true.

1. Obamacare stops women from paying higher rates simply

because of their gender. That's not something that WOMEN who
will be receiving that benefit can be faulted for. I assume you
won't deny THAT fact - that it's not that they were unwilling to
change their gender to get lower insurance rates, right?

2. Obamacare removes the donut hole - something that no

senior had any control over - so, yet another thing that can't
be laid at the feet of lazy people unwilling to pay for their
own care.

3. A large percentage of Americans have pre-existing

conditions that could have denied them affordable healthcare
coverage. It wasn't a matter of will with that added benefit
either - those people had a medical condition; it wasn't a
choice for them to have diabetes or cancer or anything else.

4. 50 million Americans will now have access to preventative

care that they didn't get previously. How is that related to
them being lazy? Here's a clue - it's not.

5. Obamacare helps bend the cost curve - saving all of us

money in the long run. The nonpartisan CBO has documented that
many times. Facts - they're wonderful things - too bad for you
it seems like you only like facts when they support your
opinion, and you dislike them when they don't support the
conclusions you've leapt to. Too bad, so sad.

6. Outrageous medical expenses has made millions of people

have to file for bankruptcy. Almost none of those people went
into their lives hoping to file for bankruptcy, and the vast
majority of them would have rather not had to do that. Obamacare
will stop that from happening so often.

7. Young, healthy Americans will pay more as compared to

what they were having to spend prior to Obamacare. Most of the
rest of us will pay less. Again, I understand that THIS FACT is
inconvenient to your false meme, but that inconvenience doesn't
mean that you get to state things that are contrary to the known
facts!> >

8. Families making up to 400% of the poverty level won't be

paying more for insurance - they'll be paying less. Only those
well-able to afford it will have to pay more.

So, it's on YOUR SHOULDERS now to provide US with evidence

that there are significant numbers of people who, right now,
will be getting coverage that they could have afforded on their
own - but they chose not to - but you'll be paying for that care.

Remember, the healthy young people who avoided getting

insurance are the ones who are going to be paying more. They
aren't getting the coverage for free, unless they're poor - and
if they're poor, then they didn't previously go without
insurance BY CHOICE - which is what your allegation was - that
they were simply unwilling to purchase coverage on their own.

Oh, and by the way, if you are so destitute that helping to

pay for other's healthcare will take food out of your family's
mouth, it WILL NOT take food out of their mouths - the least
among us will NOT be helping subsidize the health care expenses
of those who aren't covered nowadays. ONLY those who can afford
it will have to help subsidize that care. In fact, if you're
really on the edge, where providing food to your family is at
risk, or even close to that edge, you'll end up paying LESS for
your care, overall, then you used to pay! It will HELP YOU OUT -
so if your concern were really that "food will be taken from
your family's mouth", you should be aware that THE FACT IS that
this will not happen!!!

You don't have "facts" that are correct. You have opinions

that aren't backed up with the facts, and in a kneejerk
reaction, you lashed out at me for no good reason.

And yeah, I get that you're selfish. But our nation, as a

whole, isn't, and as we're a representative democracy, what the
majority of Americans want is what we hopefully, as a nation,
provide to our citizens. And the vast majority of Americans
favor this. You don't. You're entitled to your own opinions, but
not your own facts. And there are no facts that support your
assertion that there's a vast army of people who could get
affordable health care if they just weren't so damned lazy.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Cay
To: ibmpensionissues
Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 2:49 pm
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive

Consequences From Obamacare

OK no problem , you believe your facts and I'll believe

mine. I know mine are correct but not sure of yours. I'd rather
choose who/what I give my money to but unfortunately the crooks
in government don't let me do that. I'll leave the charity
giving to people like you. You must not be on twitter based on
the length of your post. Sorry I made you ramble.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, Sue Runyon

wrote:

Facts are facts. If your data source isn't correct, then

what you get from them isn't a fact, so no, it doesn't matter
what your data source is - it matters whether or not what you
get from them is truly a fact.

Your OPINION that you would rather not pay for the costs

of providing health care to others is your opinion, and you're
entitled to it. You aren't entitled to your own facts, however.

And yeah, providing healthcare to those who currently

can't get it will cost the wealthier among us a little bit.
We're already paying for a significant portion of the care they
DO receive - the poorest among us only pay for a small portion
of their care - the rest of us already pay for it via local
taxes, higher insurance premiums, and higher costs for out of
pocket medical expenses. But yeah, it WILL cost the wealthier
among us more to subsidize the healthcare costs of those who
aren't covered now and who have mostly refrained from getting
the healthcare they've needed all along.

In our nation, we've long ago determined that it's to the

community's benefit to share resources so that we all benefit.
That's why we require the community to all pay school taxes,
whether they have no kids or 12 kids in the school system -
because it benefits our society to have a well-educated
populace. We ALL pay for the fire department to be there, even
if we never have a fire in our lifetimes and we're very careful
people. We ALL pay SSI, so that *if* we ever become disabled or
leave dependents without an income source, we can rest assured
that they'll not be out on the street. Those are only a few
examples of how we've behaved over the past century, as a country.

That's something our nation, as a whole, has determined is

in our best interests. You might not think that way, and that's
your choice, but the nation, as a whole, DOES think that it's a
good idea.

I, myself, don't begrudge anyone else being provided

healthcare. I think that everyone should have access to adequate
healthcare, and if it costs me a little bit, I don't mind that
at all. The majority of the American public doesn't mind it
either. Your snide remark about people who are "unwilling to
help themselves" is contrary to the FACTS about why most
uninsured people are uninsured. Most aren't uninsured due to an
active choice they've made. And most of those who aren't insured
through an active choice they've made are those who are young
and healthy, and in their cases, it'll be them as a group, NOT
you, who has a new financial burden to bear. They'll be
subsidizing those who truly have had a need, as a group, for
health insurance. And so will the rest of us be subsidizing that
group - the group who's had a need for better healthcare
coverage but hasn't been able to get it.

I don't have any of *my* data. There's data that's

everyone's to share.

And that data tells us that it WILL cost those among us

who can well afford it a small amount to provide coverage to
millions of Americans. I don't begrudge them that service - you
do. But the data does NOT tell us that, by and large, that extra
cost will be going to people who aren't willing to take care of
themselves. THAT conclusion that you've leapt to is evidence of
YOUR beliefs coloring YOUR interpretation of the FACTS. The
FACTS don't change. A tiny percentage of the people who will be
getting healthcare insurance now are people who aren't trying to
help themselves. Most of them are too poor to help themselves or
unable to get coverage at any sort of an affordable price due to
pre-existing conditions or other issues out of their control.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Cay
To: ibmpensionissues
Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 7:20 am
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive

Consequences From Obamacare

I guess this makes the assumption that your source of data

is correct.It's not just a matter of who's data you believe but
what data you want to believe. I am concerned when the cost of
any government program reaches in my pocket to pay for others
who are unwilling to help themselves. Whenever the word subsidy
comes into a program this is my trigger for taking food out of
my families mouth. So does your data tell us that we will or
will not be paying for someone unwilling to make their life
better.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, Sue

Runyon wrote:

Facts are facts. One can't "believe" something that's

demonstrably false. One can have opinions that are different
from another person, but we all share the same database of
factual information upon which we should rely upon to come to
differing opinions.

Pointing out that some people are ignorant of the facts

isn't insulting if they truly are ignorant of relevant facts!
It's honestly portraying them. And pointing out that some people
are SO politically partisan that, when confronted with the
knowledge that they're pushing a false meme that's been debunked
long ago, they can't/won't acknowledge it, has nothing to do
with people "believing something different". Again, everyone is
entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. What
that means is that one cannot demand respect and reverence for
an opinion that's formed based upon lies, disinformation, and/or
partisan beliefs rather than upon facts. One is not "entitled"
to an opinion that one can't support with factual information.

One of those "opinions" that is unsupportable is the

false meme (see below) that there has been a mad rush to
eliminate full time workers for part time workers. That ONLY
works for companies that are right on the cusp of having 50
workers! It's not relevant for really small companies or any
businesses with over 50 workers - and so, NO, one could NOT find
evidence of that happening at Macy's, for example! And besides
that, the Affordable Care Act limits the ability of employers to
avoid paying penalties by hiring only part-time employees. The
ACA treats part-time employees as
脙茠脝'脙鈥毭�'脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥毭偮⒚兤捗�'脙鈥毭⑩偓拧脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥毭⑩�毬�脙茠��'脙鈥毭⑩偓拧脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥毭�"fulltime equivalents脙茠脝'脙鈥毭�'脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥毭偮⒚兤捗�'脙鈥毭⑩偓拧脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥毭⑩�毬�脙茠��'脙鈥毭⑩偓拧脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥� by adding up the total number of hours per month worked by the part-timers. So, if they have an amount of work to be done, it doesn't HELP them, not in ANY way, to hire more part-timers than an equivalent number of full-timers. In fact, it'd be
detrimental to their cause, as there'd then be more workers
total who might opt for coverage.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick b Cool
To: ibmpensionissues
Sent: Thu,

Jul 25, 2013 7:44 pm

Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive

Consequences From Obamacare

Really, Spreading lies and distoertions is OK, but

revealing sinmple facts is denigrating.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, "Kevin

W" wrote:

Rick I have to agree with zimowski you b definitely

not cool. Your typical mode of operation here is to denigrate or
insult those who don't agree with your point of view.

I've watched you call people ignorant, uneducated,

biased, prejudice all because they believe something different
than you.

If I was a practicing conservative I'd call it

"typical liberal methodology" where they all believe they are
superior to everyone else and have "THE" right answer. If you
don't believe me, simply ask one, they will tell you.

As far as the ACA, it is a good idea but a bad piece

of legislation. It was not thought out and the consequences ignored.

For the past several years companies have been

accelerating the removal of full time job positions and
replacing them with part time, under 29-32 hours to avoid the
medical mandate. Go to any retail establishment, since you seem
to favor all things NY, drop by Macy's, talk to any sales person
over the age of 40 who has a history long enough to know what is
going on. Their hours are cut, not due to economy but due to
planning for benefits cuts and avoidance of the ACA.

Our current administration does nothing but blame the

previous one for its woes, no responsibility just finger
pointing, but try to play that game with the prior one for the
one before it and you get screams of foul play. Obviously what
is good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

If congress and the administration wanted the people

to follow them,they would have ensured they took up such
coverage as their only means of medical care before imposing it
on the people. Using the excuse that it has always been done,
doesn't hold water. Wasn't this administration supposed to be
different? Supposed to work "for the people". Yeah, I know,
those damned evil republicans in congress won't let our poor
president and the democrats get anything done. Again nothing
more than lack of taking responsibility. Like the outcome or
not, at least the prior president took responsibility.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com,

"Rick b Cool" wrote:

An interesting conclusion. Solely based on complete

circular reasoning, obviously starting with the conclusion.

Hint: most legislation is complex. Mostly because of

industry input to create confusion and loopholes and give big
corporations competitive advantages and exclusions from regulations.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com,

"zimowski@" wrote:

"The real issue on this forum is getting back on

topic." Really? Unlike the ibmpension group, the moderators of
this group do not censor participant appends. It seems that your
style for participation is to criticize others that you don't
agree with politically and then to suggest that anybody who
responds to one of your inflammatory appends is off topic.

Regardless of one's political persuasion, I think

it's now becoming quite clear that ACA is complicated, poorly
understood, difficult to implement, and that it will be more
expensive for most Americans, providing affordable care only to
those who could not previously obtain/afford health care
coverage on their own. Everyone else will pay for it out of
pocket while receiving lower quality services due to the added
stain that will be placed on the entire health care system.

Their income will be verified when they file their taxes.脗听 The unions are not脗听against it, just want some changes.脗听 I脗听know some on military pay who wished the ACA applied to them but it doesn't.脗听 Some people don't like parts and others who don't have it wish they could.脗听 No law is perfect for everyone.


From: "zimowski@..." <zimowski@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 1:14 AM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare

脗听
Unfortunately, perception is reality. How do you expect Americans to feel about ACA given the fact that the Obama Administration has decided to proceed with the program despite the fact that the infrastructure will not be in place for verifying income when the exchanges open and for verifying consumers' claims that they do not receive health insurance from their employer? The federal government has had nearly 3 years to put the infrastructure in place. What else will not be ready when the exchanges open on October 1st? Many wonder. How is the Department of Health and Human Services coming along with setting up exchanges in the states that have declined to setup their own exchange or participate in the State Partnership Exchange? Many wonder. These are reasonable questions that should be asked following the recently announced delays.

Why are so many of the unions who strongly supported Obama and the passage of ACA now backing away from their support for ACA? Are you arguing that these organizations are not capable of sorting through the misinformation and recognizing this fear campaign for what it is?

If ACA is a compromise, then it's a compromise between liberal and conservative Democrats. Republicans were never given a fair opportunity to amend the legislation in any meaningful way. This is one of the primary reasons that not a single Republican in either the House or Senate voted for ACA.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, Sheila Beaudry <sbbeaudry@> wrote:

No, it shows the disinformation and fear campaign against it is working.脙鈥毭偺� Plus if you actually ask people about specific things that are in the ACA they do like it and want it.脙鈥毭偺� Personally I would rather have a single payer plan.脙鈥毭偺� When you add the liberals who would rather have a single payer plan to the conservatives who don't like changing the current healthcare system, you get a larger per cent.脙鈥毭偺� This is what happens when you have a law that is a compromise, neither side really likes it.脙鈥毭偺� It has a lot of good things in it though:脙鈥毭偺� you can get coverage with pre-existing conditions, no more ceiling limits, kids can stay on parents plan till 26, more people will have coverage, helps people who can't afford it to get insurance,脙鈥毭偺齱ill reduce uncovered people getting expensive care in emergency room脙鈥毭偺齱hich脙鈥毭偺齣n the past has脙鈥毭偺齣ncreased everyone else's costs.脙鈥毭偺� I don't think it is perfect, but it is a good start and changes can be

made in the future if

needed to tweak it.脙鈥毭偺�


From: "zimowski@" <zimowski@>
To: mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:34 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare

脙鈥毭偺�
The CBS poll is not a FOX poll - precisely the reason I cited it first. You cannot dispute the fact that the most recent opinion polls clearly demonstrate that most Americans do not want ACA. The more they understand ACA and the more they realize that Obama has hoodwinked them once again, the more they wish it would be repealed.

Your supposed facts are the same talking points that the smooth talking Obama used to hoodwink so many Americans, including the press, in the first place. He repeated them over and over again, just like you are doing, until a critical mass began to believe him. If you hear it often enough, it must be true. Right? But now many Americans are beginning to wake up.

As your post clearly indicates, you think that talking points, repeated as nauseum, are facts. And, you think that browbeating is debating. These are the same tactics that Obama, the finger pointer in chief, uses. But they're no longer working on the majority of Americans, as the polls indicate, and those same tactics will not work on this board. Most participants here are just too intelligent to be hoodwinked by you.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, Sue Runyon <Slouise217@> wrote:

-----Repeating the same assertions over and over again, and claiming they are facts over and over again, does not make them facts. And, browbeating anyone who doesn't agree with you, still does not make them facts.

Of course it doesn't, and IF I'd been doing that, you'd have a point. But I haven't been doing that - and so, yet again, you don't have a point!

On the other hand, claiming that a fact is a fact and not an opinion, as YOU'VE tried to claim - that facts we're presenting to you are simply opinions, or the other claim you've made, that there are alternative facts dependent upon one's beliefs - now THAT'S a boguw way to behave.

The problematic behavior has been all yours. All yours. You own it, and I've pointed it out, repeatedly, and I understand that you don't like that. Too bad, so sad.

And YET AGAIN you strip stuff of its context when you assert that I was saying that the vast majority of Americans want ACA. I didn't. You're either being dishonest or showing a stunning lack of reading comprehension yet again.

The vast majority of Americans want what we got in ACA OR MORE! And when Americans are polled on the individual aspects of the program, they like them too.

Now, because of the disinformatiion campaign from the right side of the political aisle, it doesn't have the amount of support it would have if people had the actual facts at hand. In addition, if there wasn't the factor of people hating anything that Obama and Demcrats did, it'd have even MORE support. As I've explained, repeatedly, the lack of Republican VOTES for this isn't equivalent to the lack of support from Republicans for the things included in the ACA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Geesh, you're easy to debunk.

And then you think it's legitimate to cite a Fox News poll? REALLY? And after the disinformation campaign from the rightwing, I'm not surprised at all that many Americans mistakenly think that ACA will cost them.

THE FACT IS THAT IT WON'T. Again, this is a fact. ACA will only adversely financially impact the wealthier among us - and, not strangely enough, this is EXACTLY what I've typed about 6 times in this back and forth!!!

Geez - make it harder next time for me to use your own words to make you look foolish.




-----Original Message-----
From: zimowski <zimowski@>
To: ibmpensionissues <mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jul 27, 2013 12:42 am
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare




Repeating the same assertions over and over again, and claiming they are facts over and over again, does not make them facts. And, browbeating anyone who doesn't agree with you, still does not make them facts.

Let's look at one example. You state: " And yeah, I get that you're selfish. But our nation, as a whole, isn't, and as we're a representative democracy, what the majority of Americans want is what we hopefully, as a nation, provide to our citizens. And the vast majority of Americans favor this. You don't. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts."

Now, let's focus on your assertion "The vast majority of Americans favor this.", which you assert as if it is a fact. It's not. Here are some facts for you to think about:

CBS News poll finds more Americans than ever want Obamacare repealed



Note that these poll results were posted on the web on July 24, 2013 at 10:10AM.

(CBS News) A new CBS News poll finds more Americans than ever want the Affordable Care Act repealed.

According to the poll, 36 percent of Americans want Congress to expand or keep the health care law while 39 percent want Congress to repeal it - the highest percentage seen in CBS News polls. The poll also found a majority of Americans - 54 percent - disapprove of the health care law, 36 percent of Americans approve of it and 10 percent said they don't know about it.

The health care law is a chronic issue for the White House, CBS News political director John Dickerson said on "CBS This Morning." "There's an operational part to this, which is that the White House has got to get people to sign up for these health exchanges, particularly younger, healthier Americans, and so they are tactically running a campaign much like the presidential campaign, reaching out, using the techniques of that campaign to get younger people to sign up for these health exchanges."

The poll also found just 13 percent of Americans say the health care law will personally "help me" while 38 percent said they believe the law will personally "hurt me."

And then, there's the Fox News Poll:

Voters say repeal ObamaCare, expect new law will cost them

Read more:

Note that this article was posted on the web on July 25, 2013.

Voters think ObamaCare is going to hurt their wallet and over half want the law repealed, according to a new Fox News national poll.

By a large 47-11 percent margin, voters expect the 2010 health care law will cost them rather than save them money in the coming year. Another 34 percent think the law won't change their family's health care costs.

Those negative expectations come at a time when a majority of the public remains unhappy with the way thing are going in the country (63 percent dissatisfied), and over half say they haven't seen any signs the economy has started to turn the corner (57 percent).

Republicans are three times as likely as Democrats to think ObamaCare will cost them money over the next year (70 percent vs. 23 percent). One Democrat in five expects the law will result in savings for their family (21 percent).

The poll asks people to take an up-or-down vote on ObamaCare: 40 percent say they would vote to keep the law in place, while just over half -- 53 percent -- would repeal it.

Over half of those under age 45 (51 percent) as well as those 45 and over (56 percent) would vote to repeal ObamaCare.

Most Republicans want the law repealed (by 85-13 percent) and so do independents (by 65-25 percent). Most Democrats favor keeping ObamaCare (by 72-21 percent).

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, Sue Runyon <Slouise217@> wrote:

Do you REALLY think that you can argue that I provided TOO MANY FACTS to refute your argument - that attacking the length of my post is a valid debate tactic? Really? I didn't "ramble" at all. But thanks for showing everyone that when you can't refute a thing I've written, you'll resort to making a baseless personal attack - thanks for outing yourself as an insincere, insulting debater much better than I could have done myself.

Again, there's not "my" facts and "your" facts.

There are "FACTS". They don't change based upon who is referencing them. I am baffled as to why you would think that they do! And I'm baffled about what "facts" you think you've provided. All YOU provided below was your belief that there is a large percentage of people who'll be getting insurance on your dime who were simply unwilling to get coverage before - people who could have gotten coverage, but just were too lazy/shiftless/etc to do so.

But that's not true.

1. Obamacare stops women from paying higher rates simply because of their gender. That's not something that WOMEN who will be receiving that benefit can be faulted for. I assume you won't deny THAT fact - that it's not that they were unwilling to change their gender to get lower insurance rates, right?

2. Obamacare removes the donut hole - something that no senior had any control over - so, yet another thing that can't be laid at the feet of lazy people unwilling to pay for their own care.

3. A large percentage of Americans have pre-existing conditions that could have denied them affordable healthcare coverage. It wasn't a matter of will with that added benefit either - those people had a medical condition; it wasn't a choice for them to have diabetes or cancer or anything else.

4. 50 million Americans will now have access to preventative care that they didn't get previously. How is that related to them being lazy? Here's a clue - it's not.

5. Obamacare helps bend the cost curve - saving all of us money in the long run. The nonpartisan CBO has documented that many times. Facts - they're wonderful things - too bad for you it seems like you only like facts when they support your opinion, and you dislike them when they don't support the conclusions you've leapt to. Too bad, so sad.

6. Outrageous medical expenses has made millions of people have to file for bankruptcy. Almost none of those people went into their lives hoping to file for bankruptcy, and the vast majority of them would have rather not had to do that. Obamacare will stop that from happening so often.

7. Young, healthy Americans will pay more as compared to what they were having to spend prior to Obamacare. Most of the rest of us will pay less. Again, I understand that THIS FACT is inconvenient to your false meme, but that inconvenience doesn't mean that you get to state things that are contrary to the known facts!

8. Families making up to 400% of the poverty level won't be paying more for insurance - they'll be paying less. Only those well-able to afford it will have to pay more.

So, it's on YOUR SHOULDERS now to provide US with evidence that there are significant numbers of people who, right now, will be getting coverage that they could have afforded on their own - but they chose not to - but you'll be paying for that care.

Remember, the healthy young people who avoided getting insurance are the ones who are going to be paying more. They aren't getting the coverage for free, unless they're poor - and if they're poor, then they didn't previously go without insurance BY CHOICE - which is what your allegation was - that they were simply unwilling to purchase coverage on their own.

Oh, and by the way, if you are so destitute that helping to pay for other's healthcare will take food out of your family's mouth, it WILL NOT take food out of their mouths - the least among us will NOT be helping subsidize the health care expenses of those who aren't covered nowadays. ONLY those who can afford it will have to help subsidize that care. In fact, if you're really on the edge, where providing food to your family is at risk, or even close to that edge, you'll end up paying LESS for your care, overall, then you used to pay! It will HELP YOU OUT - so if your concern were really that "food will be taken from your family's mouth", you should be aware that THE FACT IS that this will not happen!!!

You don't have "facts" that are correct. You have opinions that aren't backed up with the facts, and in a kneejerk reaction, you lashed out at me for no good reason.

And yeah, I get that you're selfish. But our nation, as a whole, isn't, and as we're a representative democracy, what the majority of Americans want is what we hopefully, as a nation, provide to our citizens. And the vast majority of Americans favor this. You don't. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. And there are no facts that support your assertion that there's a vast army of people who could get affordable health care if they just weren't so damned lazy.



-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Cay <ceome60@>
To: ibmpensionissues <mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 2:49 pm
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare




OK no problem , you believe your facts and I'll believe mine. I know mine are correct but not sure of yours. I'd rather choose who/what I give my money to but unfortunately the crooks in government don't let me do that. I'll leave the charity giving to people like you. You must not be on twitter based on the length of your post. Sorry I made you ramble.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, Sue Runyon <Slouise217@> wrote:

Facts are facts. If your data source isn't correct, then what you get from them isn't a fact, so no, it doesn't matter what your data source is - it matters whether or not what you get from them is truly a fact.

Your OPINION that you would rather not pay for the costs of providing health care to others is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. You aren't entitled to your own facts, however.

And yeah, providing healthcare to those who currently can't get it will cost the wealthier among us a little bit. We're already paying for a significant portion of the care they DO receive - the poorest among us only pay for a small portion of their care - the rest of us already pay for it via local taxes, higher insurance premiums, and higher costs for out of pocket medical expenses. But yeah, it WILL cost the wealthier among us more to subsidize the healthcare costs of those who aren't covered now and who have mostly refrained from getting the healthcare they've needed all along.

In our nation, we've long ago determined that it's to the community's benefit to share resources so that we all benefit. That's why we require the community to all pay school taxes, whether they have no kids or 12 kids in the school system - because it benefits our society to have a well-educated populace. We ALL pay for the fire department to be there, even if we never have a fire in our lifetimes and we're very careful people. We ALL pay SSI, so that *if* we ever become disabled or leave dependents without an income source, we can rest assured that they'll not be out on the street. Those are only a few examples of how we've behaved over the past century, as a country.

That's something our nation, as a whole, has determined is in our best interests. You might not think that way, and that's your choice, but the nation, as a whole, DOES think that it's a good idea.

I, myself, don't begrudge anyone else being provided healthcare. I think that everyone should have access to adequate healthcare, and if it costs me a little bit, I don't mind that at all. The majority of the American public doesn't mind it either. Your snide remark about people who are "unwilling to help themselves" is contrary to the FACTS about why most uninsured people are uninsured. Most aren't uninsured due to an active choice they've made. And most of those who aren't insured through an active choice they've made are those who are young and healthy, and in their cases, it'll be them as a group, NOT you, who has a new financial burden to bear. They'll be subsidizing those who truly have had a need, as a group, for health insurance. And so will the rest of us be subsidizing that group - the group who's had a need for better healthcare coverage but hasn't been able to get it.

I don't have any of *my* data. There's data that's everyone's to share.

And that data tells us that it WILL cost those among us who can well afford it a small amount to provide coverage to millions of Americans. I don't begrudge them that service - you do. But the data does NOT tell us that, by and large, that extra cost will be going to people who aren't willing to take care of themselves. THAT conclusion that you've leapt to is evidence of YOUR beliefs coloring YOUR interpretation of the FACTS. The FACTS don't change. A tiny percentage of the people who will be getting healthcare insurance now are people who aren't trying to help themselves. Most of them are too poor to help themselves or unable to get coverage at any sort of an affordable price due to pre-existing conditions or other issues out of their control.



-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Cay <ceome60@>
To: ibmpensionissues <mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 7:20 am
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare




I guess this makes the assumption that your source of data is correct.It's not just a matter of who's data you believe but what data you want to believe. I am concerned when the cost of any government program reaches in my pocket to pay for others who are unwilling to help themselves. Whenever the word subsidy comes into a program this is my trigger for taking food out of my families mouth. So does your data tell us that we will or will not be paying for someone unwilling to make their life better.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, Sue Runyon <Slouise217@> wrote:

Facts are facts. One can't "believe" something that's demonstrably false. One can have opinions that are different from another person, but we all share the same database of factual information upon which we should rely upon to come to differing opinions.

Pointing out that some people are ignorant of the facts isn't insulting if they truly are ignorant of relevant facts! It's honestly portraying them. And pointing out that some people are SO politically partisan that, when confronted with the knowledge that they're pushing a false meme that's been debunked long ago, they can't/won't acknowledge it, has nothing to do with people "believing something different". Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. What that means is that one cannot demand respect and reverence for an opinion that's formed based upon lies, disinformation, and/or partisan beliefs rather than upon facts. One is not "entitled" to an opinion that one can't support with factual information.

One of those "opinions" that is unsupportable is the false meme (see below) that there has been a mad rush to eliminate full time workers for part time workers. That ONLY works for companies that are right on the cusp of having 50 workers! It's not relevant for really small companies or any businesses with over 50 workers - and so, NO, one could NOT find evidence of that happening at Macy's, for example! And besides that, the Affordable Care Act limits the ability of employers to avoid paying penalties by hiring only part-time employees. The ACA treats part-time employees as 脙茠脝'脙鈥�'脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥�'脙茠脝'脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥毭偮⒚兤捗�'脙鈥�'脙茠芒鈧�拧脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠��'脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠芒鈧�拧脙垄芒鈧�拧脗卢脙茠��'脙鈥�'脙茠芒鈧�拧脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠��'脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥�"fulltime equivalents脙茠脝'脙鈥�'脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥�'脙茠脝'脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥毭偮⒚兤捗�'脙鈥�'脙茠芒鈧�拧脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠��'脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠芒鈧�拧脙垄芒鈧�拧脗卢脙茠��'脙鈥�'脙茠芒鈧�拧脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠��'脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠芒鈧�拧 by adding up the total number of hours per month worked by the part-timers. So, if they have an amount of work to be done, it

doesn't HELP them, not in ANY way, to hire more part-timers than an equivalent number of full-timers. In fact, it'd be

detrimental to their cause, as there'd then be more workers total who might opt for coverage.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick b Cool <rickb_cool@>
To: ibmpensionissues <mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jul 25, 2013 7:44 pm
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare






Really, Spreading lies and distoertions is OK, but revealing sinmple facts is denigrating.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, "Kevin W" <nowwicked@> wrote:

Rick I have to agree with zimowski you b definitely not cool. Your typical mode of operation here is to denigrate or insult those who don't agree with your point of view.
I've watched you call people ignorant, uneducated, biased, prejudice all because they believe something different than you.
If I was a practicing conservative I'd call it "typical liberal methodology" where they all believe they are superior to everyone else and have "THE" right answer. If you don't believe me, simply ask one, they will tell you.
As far as the ACA, it is a good idea but a bad piece of legislation. It was not thought out and the consequences ignored.
For the past several years companies have been accelerating the removal of full time job positions and replacing them with part time, under 29-32 hours to avoid the medical mandate. Go to any retail establishment, since you seem to favor all things NY, drop by Macy's, talk to any sales person over the age of 40 who has a history long enough to know what is going on. Their hours are cut, not due to economy but due to planning for benefits cuts and avoidance of the ACA.
Our current administration does nothing but blame the previous one for its woes, no responsibility just finger pointing, but try to play that game with the prior one for the one before it and you get screams of foul play. Obviously what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander.
If congress and the administration wanted the people to follow them,they would have ensured they took up such coverage as their only means of medical care before imposing it on the people. Using the excuse that it has always been done, doesn't hold water. Wasn't this administration supposed to be different? Supposed to work "for the people". Yeah, I know, those damned evil republicans in congress won't let our poor president and the democrats get anything done. Again nothing more than lack of taking responsibility. Like the outcome or not, at least the prior president took responsibility.


--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, "Rick b Cool" <rickb_cool@> wrote:

An interesting conclusion. Solely based on complete circular reasoning, obviously starting with the conclusion.

Hint: most legislation is complex. Mostly because of industry input to create confusion and loopholes and give big corporations competitive advantages and exclusions from regulations.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, "zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:

"The real issue on this forum is getting back on topic." Really? Unlike the ibmpension group, the moderators of this group do not censor participant appends. It seems that your style for participation is to criticize others that you don't agree with politically and then to suggest that anybody who responds to one of your inflammatory appends is off topic.

Regardless of one's political persuasion, I think it's now becoming quite clear that ACA is complicated, poorly understood, difficult to implement, and that it will be more expensive for most Americans, providing affordable care only to those who could not previously obtain/afford health care coverage on their own. Everyone else will pay for it out of pocket while receiving lower quality services due to the added stain that will be placed on the entire health care system.

Their income will be verified when they file their taxes.脗听 The unions are not脗听against it, just want some changes.脗听 I脗听know some on military pay who wished the ACA applied to them but it doesn't.脗听 Some people don't like parts and others who don't have it wish they could.脗听 No law is perfect for everyone.


From: "zimowski@..." <zimowski@...>
To: ibmpensionissues@...
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 1:14 AM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare

脗听
Unfortunately, perception is reality. How do you expect Americans to feel about ACA given the fact that the Obama Administration has decided to proceed with the program despite the fact that the infrastructure will not be in place for verifying income when the exchanges open and for verifying consumers' claims that they do not receive health insurance from their employer? The federal government has had nearly 3 years to put the infrastructure in place. What else will not be ready when the exchanges open on October 1st? Many wonder. How is the Department of Health and Human Services coming along with setting up exchanges in the states that have declined to setup their own exchange or participate in the State Partnership Exchange? Many wonder. These are reasonable questions that should be asked following the recently announced delays.

Why are so many of the unions who strongly supported Obama and the passage of ACA now backing away from their support for ACA? Are you arguing that these organizations are not capable of sorting through the misinformation and recognizing this fear campaign for what it is?

If ACA is a compromise, then it's a compromise between liberal and conservative Democrats. Republicans were never given a fair opportunity to amend the legislation in any meaningful way. This is one of the primary reasons that not a single Republican in either the House or Senate voted for ACA.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, Sheila Beaudry <sbbeaudry@> wrote:

No, it shows the disinformation and fear campaign against it is working.脙鈥毭偺� Plus if you actually ask people about specific things that are in the ACA they do like it and want it.脙鈥毭偺� Personally I would rather have a single payer plan.脙鈥毭偺� When you add the liberals who would rather have a single payer plan to the conservatives who don't like changing the current healthcare system, you get a larger per cent.脙鈥毭偺� This is what happens when you have a law that is a compromise, neither side really likes it.脙鈥毭偺� It has a lot of good things in it though:脙鈥毭偺� you can get coverage with pre-existing conditions, no more ceiling limits, kids can stay on parents plan till 26, more people will have coverage, helps people who can't afford it to get insurance,脙鈥毭偺齱ill reduce uncovered people getting expensive care in emergency room脙鈥毭偺齱hich脙鈥毭偺齣n the past has脙鈥毭偺齣ncreased everyone else's costs.脙鈥毭偺� I don't think it is perfect, but it is a good start and changes can be

made in the future if

needed to tweak it.脙鈥毭偺�


From: "zimowski@" <zimowski@>
To: mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:34 PM
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare

脙鈥毭偺�
The CBS poll is not a FOX poll - precisely the reason I cited it first. You cannot dispute the fact that the most recent opinion polls clearly demonstrate that most Americans do not want ACA. The more they understand ACA and the more they realize that Obama has hoodwinked them once again, the more they wish it would be repealed.

Your supposed facts are the same talking points that the smooth talking Obama used to hoodwink so many Americans, including the press, in the first place. He repeated them over and over again, just like you are doing, until a critical mass began to believe him. If you hear it often enough, it must be true. Right? But now many Americans are beginning to wake up.

As your post clearly indicates, you think that talking points, repeated as nauseum, are facts. And, you think that browbeating is debating. These are the same tactics that Obama, the finger pointer in chief, uses. But they're no longer working on the majority of Americans, as the polls indicate, and those same tactics will not work on this board. Most participants here are just too intelligent to be hoodwinked by you.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, Sue Runyon <Slouise217@> wrote:

-----Repeating the same assertions over and over again, and claiming they are facts over and over again, does not make them facts. And, browbeating anyone who doesn't agree with you, still does not make them facts.

Of course it doesn't, and IF I'd been doing that, you'd have a point. But I haven't been doing that - and so, yet again, you don't have a point!

On the other hand, claiming that a fact is a fact and not an opinion, as YOU'VE tried to claim - that facts we're presenting to you are simply opinions, or the other claim you've made, that there are alternative facts dependent upon one's beliefs - now THAT'S a boguw way to behave.

The problematic behavior has been all yours. All yours. You own it, and I've pointed it out, repeatedly, and I understand that you don't like that. Too bad, so sad.

And YET AGAIN you strip stuff of its context when you assert that I was saying that the vast majority of Americans want ACA. I didn't. You're either being dishonest or showing a stunning lack of reading comprehension yet again.

The vast majority of Americans want what we got in ACA OR MORE! And when Americans are polled on the individual aspects of the program, they like them too.

Now, because of the disinformatiion campaign from the right side of the political aisle, it doesn't have the amount of support it would have if people had the actual facts at hand. In addition, if there wasn't the factor of people hating anything that Obama and Demcrats did, it'd have even MORE support. As I've explained, repeatedly, the lack of Republican VOTES for this isn't equivalent to the lack of support from Republicans for the things included in the ACA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Geesh, you're easy to debunk.

And then you think it's legitimate to cite a Fox News poll? REALLY? And after the disinformation campaign from the rightwing, I'm not surprised at all that many Americans mistakenly think that ACA will cost them.

THE FACT IS THAT IT WON'T. Again, this is a fact. ACA will only adversely financially impact the wealthier among us - and, not strangely enough, this is EXACTLY what I've typed about 6 times in this back and forth!!!

Geez - make it harder next time for me to use your own words to make you look foolish.




-----Original Message-----
From: zimowski <zimowski@>
To: ibmpensionissues <mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jul 27, 2013 12:42 am
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare




Repeating the same assertions over and over again, and claiming they are facts over and over again, does not make them facts. And, browbeating anyone who doesn't agree with you, still does not make them facts.

Let's look at one example. You state: " And yeah, I get that you're selfish. But our nation, as a whole, isn't, and as we're a representative democracy, what the majority of Americans want is what we hopefully, as a nation, provide to our citizens. And the vast majority of Americans favor this. You don't. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts."

Now, let's focus on your assertion "The vast majority of Americans favor this.", which you assert as if it is a fact. It's not. Here are some facts for you to think about:

CBS News poll finds more Americans than ever want Obamacare repealed



Note that these poll results were posted on the web on July 24, 2013 at 10:10AM.

(CBS News) A new CBS News poll finds more Americans than ever want the Affordable Care Act repealed.

According to the poll, 36 percent of Americans want Congress to expand or keep the health care law while 39 percent want Congress to repeal it - the highest percentage seen in CBS News polls. The poll also found a majority of Americans - 54 percent - disapprove of the health care law, 36 percent of Americans approve of it and 10 percent said they don't know about it.

The health care law is a chronic issue for the White House, CBS News political director John Dickerson said on "CBS This Morning." "There's an operational part to this, which is that the White House has got to get people to sign up for these health exchanges, particularly younger, healthier Americans, and so they are tactically running a campaign much like the presidential campaign, reaching out, using the techniques of that campaign to get younger people to sign up for these health exchanges."

The poll also found just 13 percent of Americans say the health care law will personally "help me" while 38 percent said they believe the law will personally "hurt me."

And then, there's the Fox News Poll:

Voters say repeal ObamaCare, expect new law will cost them

Read more:

Note that this article was posted on the web on July 25, 2013.

Voters think ObamaCare is going to hurt their wallet and over half want the law repealed, according to a new Fox News national poll.

By a large 47-11 percent margin, voters expect the 2010 health care law will cost them rather than save them money in the coming year. Another 34 percent think the law won't change their family's health care costs.

Those negative expectations come at a time when a majority of the public remains unhappy with the way thing are going in the country (63 percent dissatisfied), and over half say they haven't seen any signs the economy has started to turn the corner (57 percent).

Republicans are three times as likely as Democrats to think ObamaCare will cost them money over the next year (70 percent vs. 23 percent). One Democrat in five expects the law will result in savings for their family (21 percent).

The poll asks people to take an up-or-down vote on ObamaCare: 40 percent say they would vote to keep the law in place, while just over half -- 53 percent -- would repeal it.

Over half of those under age 45 (51 percent) as well as those 45 and over (56 percent) would vote to repeal ObamaCare.

Most Republicans want the law repealed (by 85-13 percent) and so do independents (by 65-25 percent). Most Democrats favor keeping ObamaCare (by 72-21 percent).

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, Sue Runyon <Slouise217@> wrote:

Do you REALLY think that you can argue that I provided TOO MANY FACTS to refute your argument - that attacking the length of my post is a valid debate tactic? Really? I didn't "ramble" at all. But thanks for showing everyone that when you can't refute a thing I've written, you'll resort to making a baseless personal attack - thanks for outing yourself as an insincere, insulting debater much better than I could have done myself.

Again, there's not "my" facts and "your" facts.

There are "FACTS". They don't change based upon who is referencing them. I am baffled as to why you would think that they do! And I'm baffled about what "facts" you think you've provided. All YOU provided below was your belief that there is a large percentage of people who'll be getting insurance on your dime who were simply unwilling to get coverage before - people who could have gotten coverage, but just were too lazy/shiftless/etc to do so.

But that's not true.

1. Obamacare stops women from paying higher rates simply because of their gender. That's not something that WOMEN who will be receiving that benefit can be faulted for. I assume you won't deny THAT fact - that it's not that they were unwilling to change their gender to get lower insurance rates, right?

2. Obamacare removes the donut hole - something that no senior had any control over - so, yet another thing that can't be laid at the feet of lazy people unwilling to pay for their own care.

3. A large percentage of Americans have pre-existing conditions that could have denied them affordable healthcare coverage. It wasn't a matter of will with that added benefit either - those people had a medical condition; it wasn't a choice for them to have diabetes or cancer or anything else.

4. 50 million Americans will now have access to preventative care that they didn't get previously. How is that related to them being lazy? Here's a clue - it's not.

5. Obamacare helps bend the cost curve - saving all of us money in the long run. The nonpartisan CBO has documented that many times. Facts - they're wonderful things - too bad for you it seems like you only like facts when they support your opinion, and you dislike them when they don't support the conclusions you've leapt to. Too bad, so sad.

6. Outrageous medical expenses has made millions of people have to file for bankruptcy. Almost none of those people went into their lives hoping to file for bankruptcy, and the vast majority of them would have rather not had to do that. Obamacare will stop that from happening so often.

7. Young, healthy Americans will pay more as compared to what they were having to spend prior to Obamacare. Most of the rest of us will pay less. Again, I understand that THIS FACT is inconvenient to your false meme, but that inconvenience doesn't mean that you get to state things that are contrary to the known facts!

8. Families making up to 400% of the poverty level won't be paying more for insurance - they'll be paying less. Only those well-able to afford it will have to pay more.

So, it's on YOUR SHOULDERS now to provide US with evidence that there are significant numbers of people who, right now, will be getting coverage that they could have afforded on their own - but they chose not to - but you'll be paying for that care.

Remember, the healthy young people who avoided getting insurance are the ones who are going to be paying more. They aren't getting the coverage for free, unless they're poor - and if they're poor, then they didn't previously go without insurance BY CHOICE - which is what your allegation was - that they were simply unwilling to purchase coverage on their own.

Oh, and by the way, if you are so destitute that helping to pay for other's healthcare will take food out of your family's mouth, it WILL NOT take food out of their mouths - the least among us will NOT be helping subsidize the health care expenses of those who aren't covered nowadays. ONLY those who can afford it will have to help subsidize that care. In fact, if you're really on the edge, where providing food to your family is at risk, or even close to that edge, you'll end up paying LESS for your care, overall, then you used to pay! It will HELP YOU OUT - so if your concern were really that "food will be taken from your family's mouth", you should be aware that THE FACT IS that this will not happen!!!

You don't have "facts" that are correct. You have opinions that aren't backed up with the facts, and in a kneejerk reaction, you lashed out at me for no good reason.

And yeah, I get that you're selfish. But our nation, as a whole, isn't, and as we're a representative democracy, what the majority of Americans want is what we hopefully, as a nation, provide to our citizens. And the vast majority of Americans favor this. You don't. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. And there are no facts that support your assertion that there's a vast army of people who could get affordable health care if they just weren't so damned lazy.



-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Cay <ceome60@>
To: ibmpensionissues <mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 2:49 pm
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare




OK no problem , you believe your facts and I'll believe mine. I know mine are correct but not sure of yours. I'd rather choose who/what I give my money to but unfortunately the crooks in government don't let me do that. I'll leave the charity giving to people like you. You must not be on twitter based on the length of your post. Sorry I made you ramble.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, Sue Runyon <Slouise217@> wrote:

Facts are facts. If your data source isn't correct, then what you get from them isn't a fact, so no, it doesn't matter what your data source is - it matters whether or not what you get from them is truly a fact.

Your OPINION that you would rather not pay for the costs of providing health care to others is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. You aren't entitled to your own facts, however.

And yeah, providing healthcare to those who currently can't get it will cost the wealthier among us a little bit. We're already paying for a significant portion of the care they DO receive - the poorest among us only pay for a small portion of their care - the rest of us already pay for it via local taxes, higher insurance premiums, and higher costs for out of pocket medical expenses. But yeah, it WILL cost the wealthier among us more to subsidize the healthcare costs of those who aren't covered now and who have mostly refrained from getting the healthcare they've needed all along.

In our nation, we've long ago determined that it's to the community's benefit to share resources so that we all benefit. That's why we require the community to all pay school taxes, whether they have no kids or 12 kids in the school system - because it benefits our society to have a well-educated populace. We ALL pay for the fire department to be there, even if we never have a fire in our lifetimes and we're very careful people. We ALL pay SSI, so that *if* we ever become disabled or leave dependents without an income source, we can rest assured that they'll not be out on the street. Those are only a few examples of how we've behaved over the past century, as a country.

That's something our nation, as a whole, has determined is in our best interests. You might not think that way, and that's your choice, but the nation, as a whole, DOES think that it's a good idea.

I, myself, don't begrudge anyone else being provided healthcare. I think that everyone should have access to adequate healthcare, and if it costs me a little bit, I don't mind that at all. The majority of the American public doesn't mind it either. Your snide remark about people who are "unwilling to help themselves" is contrary to the FACTS about why most uninsured people are uninsured. Most aren't uninsured due to an active choice they've made. And most of those who aren't insured through an active choice they've made are those who are young and healthy, and in their cases, it'll be them as a group, NOT you, who has a new financial burden to bear. They'll be subsidizing those who truly have had a need, as a group, for health insurance. And so will the rest of us be subsidizing that group - the group who's had a need for better healthcare coverage but hasn't been able to get it.

I don't have any of *my* data. There's data that's everyone's to share.

And that data tells us that it WILL cost those among us who can well afford it a small amount to provide coverage to millions of Americans. I don't begrudge them that service - you do. But the data does NOT tell us that, by and large, that extra cost will be going to people who aren't willing to take care of themselves. THAT conclusion that you've leapt to is evidence of YOUR beliefs coloring YOUR interpretation of the FACTS. The FACTS don't change. A tiny percentage of the people who will be getting healthcare insurance now are people who aren't trying to help themselves. Most of them are too poor to help themselves or unable to get coverage at any sort of an affordable price due to pre-existing conditions or other issues out of their control.



-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Cay <ceome60@>
To: ibmpensionissues <mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 7:20 am
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare




I guess this makes the assumption that your source of data is correct.It's not just a matter of who's data you believe but what data you want to believe. I am concerned when the cost of any government program reaches in my pocket to pay for others who are unwilling to help themselves. Whenever the word subsidy comes into a program this is my trigger for taking food out of my families mouth. So does your data tell us that we will or will not be paying for someone unwilling to make their life better.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, Sue Runyon <Slouise217@> wrote:

Facts are facts. One can't "believe" something that's demonstrably false. One can have opinions that are different from another person, but we all share the same database of factual information upon which we should rely upon to come to differing opinions.

Pointing out that some people are ignorant of the facts isn't insulting if they truly are ignorant of relevant facts! It's honestly portraying them. And pointing out that some people are SO politically partisan that, when confronted with the knowledge that they're pushing a false meme that's been debunked long ago, they can't/won't acknowledge it, has nothing to do with people "believing something different". Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. What that means is that one cannot demand respect and reverence for an opinion that's formed based upon lies, disinformation, and/or partisan beliefs rather than upon facts. One is not "entitled" to an opinion that one can't support with factual information.

One of those "opinions" that is unsupportable is the false meme (see below) that there has been a mad rush to eliminate full time workers for part time workers. That ONLY works for companies that are right on the cusp of having 50 workers! It's not relevant for really small companies or any businesses with over 50 workers - and so, NO, one could NOT find evidence of that happening at Macy's, for example! And besides that, the Affordable Care Act limits the ability of employers to avoid paying penalties by hiring only part-time employees. The ACA treats part-time employees as 脙茠脝'脙鈥�'脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥�'脙茠脝'脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥毭偮⒚兤捗�'脙鈥�'脙茠芒鈧�拧脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠��'脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠芒鈧�拧脙垄芒鈧�拧脗卢脙茠��'脙鈥�'脙茠芒鈧�拧脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠��'脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥�"fulltime equivalents脙茠脝'脙鈥�'脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥�'脙茠脝'脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠芒鈧�拧脙鈥毭偮⒚兤捗�'脙鈥�'脙茠芒鈧�拧脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠��'脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠芒鈧�拧脙垄芒鈧�拧脗卢脙茠��'脙鈥�'脙茠芒鈧�拧脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠��'脙垄芒鈥毬�脜隆脙茠芒鈧�拧 by adding up the total number of hours per month worked by the part-timers. So, if they have an amount of work to be done, it

doesn't HELP them, not in ANY way, to hire more part-timers than an equivalent number of full-timers. In fact, it'd be

detrimental to their cause, as there'd then be more workers total who might opt for coverage.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick b Cool <rickb_cool@>
To: ibmpensionissues <mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jul 25, 2013 7:44 pm
Subject: [ibmpensionissues] Re: Union Fears Destructive Consequences From Obamacare






Really, Spreading lies and distoertions is OK, but revealing sinmple facts is denigrating.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, "Kevin W" <nowwicked@> wrote:

Rick I have to agree with zimowski you b definitely not cool. Your typical mode of operation here is to denigrate or insult those who don't agree with your point of view.
I've watched you call people ignorant, uneducated, biased, prejudice all because they believe something different than you.
If I was a practicing conservative I'd call it "typical liberal methodology" where they all believe they are superior to everyone else and have "THE" right answer. If you don't believe me, simply ask one, they will tell you.
As far as the ACA, it is a good idea but a bad piece of legislation. It was not thought out and the consequences ignored.
For the past several years companies have been accelerating the removal of full time job positions and replacing them with part time, under 29-32 hours to avoid the medical mandate. Go to any retail establishment, since you seem to favor all things NY, drop by Macy's, talk to any sales person over the age of 40 who has a history long enough to know what is going on. Their hours are cut, not due to economy but due to planning for benefits cuts and avoidance of the ACA.
Our current administration does nothing but blame the previous one for its woes, no responsibility just finger pointing, but try to play that game with the prior one for the one before it and you get screams of foul play. Obviously what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander.
If congress and the administration wanted the people to follow them,they would have ensured they took up such coverage as their only means of medical care before imposing it on the people. Using the excuse that it has always been done, doesn't hold water. Wasn't this administration supposed to be different? Supposed to work "for the people". Yeah, I know, those damned evil republicans in congress won't let our poor president and the democrats get anything done. Again nothing more than lack of taking responsibility. Like the outcome or not, at least the prior president took responsibility.


--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, "Rick b Cool" <rickb_cool@> wrote:

An interesting conclusion. Solely based on complete circular reasoning, obviously starting with the conclusion.

Hint: most legislation is complex. Mostly because of industry input to create confusion and loopholes and give big corporations competitive advantages and exclusions from regulations.

--- In mailto:ibmpensionissues%40yahoogroups.com, "zimowski@" <zimowski@> wrote:

"The real issue on this forum is getting back on topic." Really? Unlike the ibmpension group, the moderators of this group do not censor participant appends. It seems that your style for participation is to criticize others that you don't agree with politically and then to suggest that anybody who responds to one of your inflammatory appends is off topic.

Regardless of one's political persuasion, I think it's now becoming quite clear that ACA is complicated, poorly understood, difficult to implement, and that it will be more expensive for most Americans, providing affordable care only to those who could not previously obtain/afford health care coverage on their own. Everyone else will pay for it out of pocket while receiving lower quality services due to the added stain that will be placed on the entire health care system.