I bought a new Proxxon TBM115. It will arrive tomorrow. :-) I have never made even one circuit board yet and now is the time to get going after wanting and trying to do this for many many years. Something else always got it the way. I spent half the day trying to get a pdf of my simple little circuit to print after replacing an empty toner cartridge in my HP LaserJet 1022. Seems Adobe has some issues printing certain pdf's with Win7. I uninstalled and reinstalled and did everything I could find online including using an older version but got nowhere. But I could upload my pdf to my server and then open it in Firefox and print it from there??? Weird. Anyhow I just got a longer usb cable and connected to my Win10 pc and it works from there. Got the muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide etc so I am almost there. I figure that will be a good choice for the etchant at least for my first attempts as it can be saved and reused. I am going to try the no-iron version and see if I can get the design to transfer because if it really works, that would be a cool way to get it done. If not, I'll buy an iron or use my wife's. I also have a t-shirt press that would likely work but sucks a lot of juice to warm it up. I also ordered some carbide drill bits but they are coming from overseas. Any tips or advice?

Do your self a favor and junk iron idea. Go the laminator way. Pulsar Pro, google to find it. Much better consistant results and less? starting over from scratch.

Dave,

First: sit down, take a deep breath, and release it slowly:-)

I don't understand the problem with printing a pdf on the HP1022. I have an HP1018 which is closely related, and never had a problem with printing pdfs. You might visit the HP website and look for an updated driver. I am still on Win 7, dreading the day I have to migrate to Win10.

Regardless of how you print your pattern, you must double check it for dimensional accuracy. Both of the printers I use print pdfs slightly under size to the tune of 1-3%. It doesn't sound like much, but you will notice some difficulty inserting a 14 pin dip, unless your holes are very large. As the board gets bigger, or uses long headers, this becomes more than just an annoyance.

Once you have verified the dimensional accuracy of your print, make several copies. That will save you time when you have to redo because you didn't get the coverage you were expecting.

If your reference to the "no Iron" method is the so called cold process where you use acetone and alcohol, be prepared for an adventure. When I tried it, I found that I had to experiment with the proportions of the chemicals, and once I had that correct, I still had spotty results. Sometimes the transfer was almost perfect, other times, not so much. I eventually abandoned that process.

The iron is ok for experimentation, but if you continue to make boards, you should consider getting a laminator.? Search the archives for more on this. We do have some strong proponents of the iron method, but I think you will find that there are more laminator users.

The T shirt press sounds interesting. I don't remember any discussion on that type of equipment.

Don't get ahead of yourself with regard to the drill bits. If you are using a glass/epoxy laminate (FR4, etc), using regular high speed bits will be a disappointment. They will be dull after a few holes, and they might also tear up your pads. Wait for the bits, you won't be sorry. Drill at high speed, but feed slowly. The bits are brittle and you will break a few while you are learning.

As regards the etchant, pay attention to the safe handling rules. Wear gloves, eye protection, and an acid proof apron or other acid proof clothing, work in a well ventilated area, and keep a bucket of clean water close by in case of accident.

Best of luck for your first try.

Harvey

On 3/3/2019 9:32 AM, Kevin Byrne via Groups.Io wrote:

Do your self a favor and junk iron idea. Go the laminator way. Pulsar Pro, google to find it. Much better consistant results and less? starting over from scratch._,_._,_

Funny you mention that. I had purchased a Harbor Freight laminator years ago but never got around to modding it. Now after some quick research I think I am going to buy an Apache AL13P and follow the instructions from Jameco.

On 3/3/2019 11:01 AM, Harvey Altstadter wrote:

Dave,

First: sit down, take a deep breath, and release it slowly:-)

I don't understand the problem with printing a pdf on the HP1022. I have an HP1018 which is closely related, and never had a problem with printing pdfs. You might visit the HP website and look for an updated driver. I am still on Win 7, dreading the day I have to migrate to Win10.

Regardless of how you print your pattern, you must double check it for dimensional accuracy. Both of the printers I use print pdfs slightly under size to the tune of 1-3%. It doesn't sound like much, but you will notice some difficulty inserting a 14 pin dip, unless your holes are very large. As the board gets bigger, or uses long headers, this becomes more than just an annoyance.

Once you have verified the dimensional accuracy of your print, make several copies. That will save you time when you have to redo because you didn't get the coverage you were expecting.

If your reference to the "no Iron" method is the so called cold process where you use acetone and alcohol, be prepared for an adventure. When I tried it, I found that I had to experiment with the proportions of the chemicals, and once I had that correct, I still had spotty results. Sometimes the transfer was almost perfect, other times, not so much. I eventually abandoned that process.

The iron is ok for experimentation, but if you continue to make boards, you should consider getting a laminator.? Search the archives for more on this. We do have some strong proponents of the iron method, but I think you will find that there are more laminator users.

The T shirt press sounds interesting. I don't remember any discussion on that type of equipment.

Don't get ahead of yourself with regard to the drill bits. If you are using a glass/epoxy laminate (FR4, etc), using regular high speed bits will be a disappointment. They will be dull after a few holes, and they might also tear up your pads. Wait for the bits, you won't be sorry. Drill at high speed, but feed slowly. The bits are brittle and you will break a few while you are learning.

As regards the etchant, pay attention to the safe handling rules. Wear gloves, eye protection, and an acid proof apron or other acid proof clothing, work in a well ventilated area, and keep a bucket of clean water close by in case of accident.

Best of luck for your first try.

Harvey

Ok, big breath taken and breakfast eaten too. Believe me, I build and repair pc's and do programming etc, but that problem with the Adobe is real. It may be the DesignSpark PCB outputs the pdf with and older format or something as other pdf's do print on the HP. I reinstalled the HP driver a couple of times from the HP site to no avail. Other people have reported the same issue and Adobe is mum as Win7 is on it's way out.

I will check the accuracy as I planned on doing that anyhow. Several copies was in the plans too.

On the no iron method you guessed it! :) It just looked to good to be true so I figured I would at least try it. What's to lose? But I also thought it wouldn't be as easy as it looked.

I bought a Harbor Freight laminator years ago but never got to modding it. I am going to but an Apache AL13P as I found a Jameco pdf on how to mod it and I can handle that. The t-shirt press was just a possibility just because I have one but it take a lot of wasted energy to heat it up unless I was going to do many boards and assuming it actually would work.

I bought some 2oz 2x6 CEM1 boards but I do has some fiberglass ones somewhere. I was going to use the CEM1 as I never used them before and wanted to avoid the fiberglass.

I have a small machine shop so I know some stuff about run out etc. I have used and broke a bunch of my small carbide I bought in the past for my circuit board use. Problem was I used a drill press or maybe a dremel and was doing small holes for my wife or mother in laws jewelry projects. I know how fragile they are. That is also why I bought the Proxxon, even though I could have went a cheaper route.

I will be very careful and add the acid to the water etc. I learned that when we had a soap making business and I made lye soap. I will be outside too to avoid fumes etc and have some water nearby just in case. I am going to use a small square Rubbermade container for the etchant to allow resealing it for the new time.

Thanks for your feedback

Green TRF protects your traces from any and all etchant. It works real good with Apache AL13P as that is my way. It should work with other laminators but doesn't with household iron. Other? foil is also sold on E-Bay.

On 3/3/2019 1:35 PM, Kevin Byrne via Groups.Io wrote:

Green TRF protects your traces from any and all etchant. It works real good with Apache AL13P as that is my way. It should work with other laminators but doesn't with household iron. Other? foil is also sold on E-Bay.

I have some yellow paper from ebay to try. Otherwise magazine paper I wanted to try too. And parchment and glossy etc... :) I never knew about the Green TRF though. Best place to buy?

On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 15:13:46 -0600, you wrote:

On 3/3/2019 1:35 PM, Kevin Byrne via Groups.Io wrote:

Green TRF protects your traces from any and all etchant. It works real
good with Apache AL13P as that is my way. It should work with other
laminators but doesn't with household iron. Other? foil is also sold
on E-Bay.

Many people use toner transfer. The basic idea is to print on paper,
then using heat transfer, get it to stick to the PC board. Toner is
plastic with graphite (more or less, it needs to be black). The fuser
in a laser printer liquifies the toner and that seeps into the paper.

The idea behind toner transfer is that you print on something where
the toner does NOT seep into the paper. Clay coated paper is one
answer. Glossy magazine paper is another. Specially coated paper
(it's detrose, like sugar, water soluable)is another.

Print on the paper. Toner adheres (however minimally) to the paper.

Invert it and put on a PC board... Run that through a laminator (or
heat source with pressure)... that melts the toner and it glues it
*AND* the paper attached to the pc board.

Now soak that in water. For most paper, the paper fibers weaken and
can be scrubbed off.... how well depend on the paper....

With the paper, the dextrose dissolves and the paper floats off.

Now the good news is that it's on the board, the bad news is that
there might be gaps and holes in the toner layer.

Green foil fills some of those blanks, and the additional material
(the green dust that adheres to the melted toner during the phase
where you heat the green foil) tends to seal the toner surface.

That is why you're using it.

Too little heat and pressure and there are gaps in the traces because
the toner doesn't stick (also if there is grease or oil on the PC
board). Lots of debate on how clean to make the board and how to
clean the board.

Too much pressure tends to flatten the traces and cause them to
spread. Generally not as much of an issue as you might think until
you start doing 100 pin chips with 0.5 mm pin spacing (and the nominal
size of the trace is 10 mils, with a 10 mil gap. best that I'd been
able to do).

Lots of variables here, so it does take some experimentation.

Harvey

I have some yellow paper from ebay to try. Otherwise magazine paper I
wanted to try too. And parchment and glossy etc... :) I never knew about
the Green TRF though. Best place to buy?

开云体育

Using the EBAY yellow toner transfer paper?

I tried the cheap EBAY TRF :

and just for the fun of it bought the shiny metallic gold TRF

for the grandchildren projects on paper.

more detailed etch process:

Noting that I would rather manually trace ALL of the toner traces with a felt tip permanent marker

because that way I KNOW if there are any big missing pads or traces.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? Pressing TRF will NOT fix those spots.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????? Pressing TRF will fix the porous nature of the toner.

My PRE toner press board preparation consists of sanding with a fine grit sand paper then washing with pure acetone.

I have gotten very consistent results again and again and again but once in a while I get a particularly gruesome toner transfer.

with considerably more missing toner spots.?

I don't freak out... I know I just run over the traces with a permanent marker and clean it up.

Yellow paper is what I use taped over paper thru printer, traces are now on yellow paper. Lay it carefully over copper clad board, tape it down and send thru Apache roughly 8 times.
Lay copper clad board with only traces on it now down and tape Green TRF to copper clad board and repeat thru laminator. Traces are now green.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?E-Bay sells it, as does Amazon.com.

On 3/3/2019 7:42 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 15:13:46 -0600, you wrote:

On 3/3/2019 1:35 PM, Kevin Byrne via Groups.Io wrote:

Green TRF protects your traces from any and all etchant. It works real
good with Apache AL13P as that is my way. It should work with other
laminators but doesn't with household iron. Other? foil is also sold
on E-Bay.

Many people use toner transfer. The basic idea is to print on paper,
then using heat transfer, get it to stick to the PC board. Toner is
plastic with graphite (more or less, it needs to be black). The fuser
in a laser printer liquifies the toner and that seeps into the paper.

The idea behind toner transfer is that you print on something where
the toner does NOT seep into the paper. Clay coated paper is one
answer. Glossy magazine paper is another. Specially coated paper
(it's detrose, like sugar, water soluable)is another.

Print on the paper. Toner adheres (however minimally) to the paper.

Invert it and put on a PC board... Run that through a laminator (or
heat source with pressure)... that melts the toner and it glues it
*AND* the paper attached to the pc board.

Now soak that in water. For most paper, the paper fibers weaken and
can be scrubbed off.... how well depend on the paper....

With the paper, the dextrose dissolves and the paper floats off.

Now the good news is that it's on the board, the bad news is that
there might be gaps and holes in the toner layer.

Green foil fills some of those blanks, and the additional material
(the green dust that adheres to the melted toner during the phase
where you heat the green foil) tends to seal the toner surface.

That is why you're using it.

Too little heat and pressure and there are gaps in the traces because
the toner doesn't stick (also if there is grease or oil on the PC
board). Lots of debate on how clean to make the board and how to
clean the board.

Too much pressure tends to flatten the traces and cause them to
spread. Generally not as much of an issue as you might think until
you start doing 100 pin chips with 0.5 mm pin spacing (and the nominal
size of the trace is 10 mils, with a 10 mil gap. best that I'd been
able to do).

Lots of variables here, so it does take some experimentation.

Harvey



Thanks Harvey for the clear and concise info on how this all works. I suppose there are "other" foils of different colors etc that do the same thing?

On 3/4/2019 3:21 AM, Kevin Byrne via Groups.Io wrote:

Yellow paper is what I use taped over paper thru printer, traces are now on yellow paper. Lay it carefully over copper clad board, tape it down and send thru Apache roughly 8 times.
Lay copper clad board with only traces on it now down and tape Green TRF to copper clad board and repeat thru laminator. Traces are now green.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?E-Bay sells it, as does Amazon.com.,_

Kevin, good info. I bought 100 sheets of the yellow paper a few months ago. :) Now on the green TRF would that be the same stuff sold on ebay for foil transfers that comes in many colors? And if so would any color work? Any good ebay sources?

开云体育

Using the EBAY yellow toner transfer paper?

I tried the cheap EBAY TRF :

and just for the fun of it bought the shiny metallic gold TRF

for the grandchildren projects on paper.

more detailed etch process:

Noting that I would rather manually trace ALL of the toner traces with a felt tip permanent marker

because that way I KNOW if there are any big missing pads or traces.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? Pressing TRF will NOT fix those spots.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????? Pressing TRF will fix the porous nature of the toner.

My PRE toner press board preparation consists of sanding with a fine grit sand paper then washing with pure acetone.

I have gotten very consistent results again and again and again but once in a while I get a particularly gruesome toner transfer.

with considerably more missing toner spots.?

I don't freak out... I know I just run over the traces with a permanent marker and clean it up.

Good info Rob. The sharpie is our friend. So you are not a fan of the TRF then I see. I guess if you have thick toner and it all transfers perfectly then you should be done. But on finer traces etc the TRF may help, but use a Sharpie for insurance.

.? This is a link to Amazon.com exact
as to what I use, check with the group as to cheep E-Bay colors.

On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 08:52:31 -0600, you wrote:


If you look at the TRF film, you should see completely opaque areas,
and completely transparent areas. Any transparent area with speckles
indicates that the film was trying to fill too big a gap.

The only problem with the sharpies is that they either have too large
a tip (and the smaller tips can damage the toner), or they don't put
down enough liquid, and only seal parts.

Depending on how fine the lines are, you can have to go over your
repairs to repair them.

Oh, and the only color that seems to work well is black.

You might want to try the "indelible, permanent, industrial grade" of
sharpie, there does seem to be a difference.


Harvey

On 3/3/2019 8:27 PM, Rob via Groups.Io wrote:

Using the EBAY yellow toner transfer paper



I tried the cheap EBAY TRF :



and just for the fun of it bought the shiny metallic gold TRF

for the grandchildren projects on paper.

more detailed etch process:



Noting that I would rather manually trace ALL of the toner traces with
a felt tip permanent marker

because that way I KNOW if there are any big missing pads or traces.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? Pressing TRF will
NOT fix those spots.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????? Pressing TRF will
fix the porous nature of the toner.

My PRE toner press board preparation consists of sanding with a fine
grit sand paper then washing with pure acetone.

I have gotten very consistent results again and again and again but
once in a while I get a particularly gruesome toner transfer.



with considerably more missing toner spots.

I don't freak out... I know I just run over the traces with a
permanent marker and clean it up.

Good info Rob. The sharpie is our friend. So you are not a fan of the
TRF then I see. I guess if you have thick toner and it all transfers
perfectly then you should be done. But on finer traces etc the TRF may
help, but use a Sharpie for insurance.

On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 08:39:47 -0600, you wrote:

The foils sold by pulsar (they may have had a name change) are of two
varieties, white and green.

As far as I can tell, there's likely nothing special about the green,
but I'd not use metallic foils in a acid bath. The only reason to use
any other particular color would be the ease of telling where the foil
has sealed the toner.

Now on the white stuff....

Lots heavier toner, heavier to the point where you get clumps of it
sticking. You'll need to go over that with slightly tacky tape and
actually pull off the excess. I've used it only for silk screen. In
that use, a partial coverage is not as nasty as you might think.

Harvey

On 3/3/2019 7:42 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 15:13:46 -0600, you wrote:

On 3/3/2019 1:35 PM, Kevin Byrne via Groups.Io wrote:

Green TRF protects your traces from any and all etchant. It works real
good with Apache AL13P as that is my way. It should work with other
laminators but doesn't with household iron. Other? foil is also sold
on E-Bay.

Many people use toner transfer. The basic idea is to print on paper,
then using heat transfer, get it to stick to the PC board. Toner is
plastic with graphite (more or less, it needs to be black). The fuser
in a laser printer liquifies the toner and that seeps into the paper.

The idea behind toner transfer is that you print on something where
the toner does NOT seep into the paper. Clay coated paper is one
answer. Glossy magazine paper is another. Specially coated paper
(it's detrose, like sugar, water soluable)is another.

Print on the paper. Toner adheres (however minimally) to the paper.

Invert it and put on a PC board... Run that through a laminator (or
heat source with pressure)... that melts the toner and it glues it
*AND* the paper attached to the pc board.

Now soak that in water. For most paper, the paper fibers weaken and
can be scrubbed off.... how well depend on the paper....

With the paper, the dextrose dissolves and the paper floats off.

Now the good news is that it's on the board, the bad news is that
there might be gaps and holes in the toner layer.

Green foil fills some of those blanks, and the additional material
(the green dust that adheres to the melted toner during the phase
where you heat the green foil) tends to seal the toner surface.

That is why you're using it.

Too little heat and pressure and there are gaps in the traces because
the toner doesn't stick (also if there is grease or oil on the PC
board). Lots of debate on how clean to make the board and how to
clean the board.

Too much pressure tends to flatten the traces and cause them to
spread. Generally not as much of an issue as you might think until
you start doing 100 pin chips with 0.5 mm pin spacing (and the nominal
size of the trace is 10 mils, with a 10 mil gap. best that I'd been
able to do).

Lots of variables here, so it does take some experimentation.

Harvey



Thanks Harvey for the clear and concise info on how this all works. I suppose there are "other" foils of different colors etc that do the same thing?

On 3/4/2019 9:34 AM, Kevin Byrne via Groups.Io wrote:

. This is a link to Amazon.com exact
as to what I use, check with the group as to cheep E-Bay colors.

Thanks. So does acetone remove it after you are done etching? And does anybody use Tinit?

On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 11:05:57 -0600, you wrote:

On 3/4/2019 9:34 AM, Kevin Byrne via Groups.Io wrote:

.
This is a link to Amazon.com exact
as to what I use, check with the group as to cheep E-Bay colors.

Thanks. So does acetone remove it after you are done etching? And does
anybody use Tinit?

I've found that while acetone removes the toner, it also tends to
stain the board. I've used very fine (1000 to 2000 grit) wet/dry
paper which works reasonably well. It also cleans the board for the
next step, which is using the MG chemicals tin plating solution.

Please note that this is NASTY stuff, that you want to use outside,
and not allow anywhere near food. Wash your hands afterwards, use
gloves, etc. Dedicated trays....

(and that's from reading the label).

Harvey

Quick question. Is top posting preferred here. That is the way I like to do it but on some other forums people complain and like it the other way.

Now back to the subject at hand...All good info but, if I am just starting out and am not worried about trace widths, my job should be easier if I use wide traces at first, right? I remember taking apart old electronics and the traces and solder were absolutely thick. And for starters my projects will be very simple, like a breakout board.

I think I seen where Rob found that Krylon enamel paint was a great resist that could be thinned with lacquer thinner and used in a pen. Does Tinit help any or is that just a corrosion preventative and does anyone use it anymore?

Thanks

Ok, I see. I was a bit confused there. You are actually transferring the backing from the foils on to the resist. Not the foil.