Tonewheel Generator - BEARINGS - LUBRICATIONS - UPDATE-10FEB23
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A bit of a delay to collect together available materials that are needed by Turkey in aid of the catastrophic earthquakes and getting them to an emergency collection center.? Heart-wrenching to see children being pulled from the rubble. Very difficult scene to digest ...with the death toll only climbing as the bodies are found. It begins to become a recovery rather than a rescue. Now back to the project, just a very quick update/summary - after my first email of 02FEB23, I have done a number of things specific to tone wheel generator lubrication. 1) exposed the tone wheel generator minimally (removed the acoustic blanket) and confirmed the bearing noise from the RHS (looking into the back) ....and directly lubricated four bearings in total, with a 30W Way Oil.? ?This stopped ALL "extra" noise in this one area. 2) added "copious amounts" of "Tone Wheel Generator Oil" (TWGO).? ?Exact amount much more than 20 or 30 "drops" in each funnel. 3) needed access to the bearings. Couldn't "see" or figure out how to get oil to each and every bearing with the TWG covered. Only way to do this was to disconnect 24 wires on the keyboard-side of the filter assembly laying on top of the TWG, and remove hold-down screws.? ?Exposed the tone wheels by carefully lifting the one side of the filter deck and paying very close attention to all the connected wiring on the opposite side. Eventually got it all exposed.? This now allowed a visual of the two oiling points, seeing the wicking material.? ?Very difficult to determine whether this was a "dry" or "wet" condition in comparison with what it should be ....keeping in mind I had already poured an amount of oil a couple of days previously ....and I did not "see" the condition of the wicking material at that time.? However, in consideration of Chris' comment using the term "evaporation" ...and considering the number of years the organ has sat idle, ..safe to say the initial condition of the wicking was "dry".? This leaves the question of "how much" lube to add to bring the entire system up to a "proper level"(?) However, at this time I decided to add more oil to observe visually, how long it would take to not just fully "cover" the wick material, but also how long for the fresh oil to absorb/disappear into the wick material. 4)?I spent a few days of adding oil directly onto the wick material, and running the TWG to listen/monitor for any return of "noise". I added "less" oil than the initial dousing. Each time to observe the wick material after a day of oil application.? Each time, the wick material ended up looking the same, as if it was absorbing the oil "easily". 5) on 07FEB23, I decided to apply TWGO directly to each bearing. This was very straightforward. Just a matter of "seeing" that oil got to the shaft/bearing and got "wet". A little awkward on some bearings "under" adjacent shafts.? Upon completion, I powered up the TWG and immediately noticed a diminished noise level overall. Standing back and listening to the assembly, it was significantly quieter.? It would have been interesting to have measured the noise level before and after if I had a db meter. 6) The next step now was to return the filter assembly plate into place and reconnect the 24 wires.? Again, a very delicate process paying close attention to all the wiring on the opposite side and finding the correct position for the retaining/hold-down screws. All went well. All wires were still aligned with each soldering point. No labelling was needed. Laid acoustic mat back over TWG.? ?Moved the entire TWG assembly back into general position. Reconnected one plug ....everything back to original condition. 7) powered up to "observe" and "listen".? TWG now very surprisingly quiet overall.? Powered down, plugged in 147, powered back up. Once 147 warmed up, tried the manuals. Everything functioning nice.? 147 sounding a little loud with "constant power hum" underneath.? Powered down and plugged in the 77 Leslie.? Upon powering back up, a very loud "power hum" came on for about 8 seconds and then decreased considerably ...but still far too loud.? Something definitely not right. Shut everything down and attached pedals. Powered up and had the very loud power hum again initially from the 77 Leslie, that decreased after 8 seconds.? Tried the pedals ....nothing.? Tried "re-positioning" ...nothing.? Tried moving out of the positioning holes and maneuvering the pedal location ...still nothing. Had a look in the back for any "connectors" I may have forgotten about and saw nothing not connected. No wires are stressed anywhere, all free and relaxed. All wires positioned and connected board to board on the console tilting back panel where there are bass and percussion amplifier boards. As I passed my led work light close over the area circled (photo attached) ...it picked up a huge power hum as I wave the trouble-light closed over this one area. As previously mentioned, we owned a few large Hammonds long ago (C and A100). I know the pedals need to "engage"/align into the console.? I should say, when raising the volume/swell, I do hear a faint note being played through the 147.? I will do more investigating on this.? I could not "test" the organ before starting this work, because of the noisy bearings.? Perhaps I should have. I will also point out I had an audio tech install the female plug into the X-77 console for the 147 .....30/40 years ago(?) ...as the existing extra plug in the console was for a second X-77 Leslie, which runs a few audio channels.? This was a mod to combine these channels into one for the 147.? I don't think this has anything to do with pedals, but I AM wondering about the "power hum" (?) I will continue to investigate as best I can about the pedals. I think this is something very simple .....somewhere. Just have to find it. I don't have any electronic tools other than a multimeter ....so this is going to be a visual search. If anyone has any ideas, feel free to advise. Thanks Wayne
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:20:12 PM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:
Yes, in UK, Wales to be precise, not England, and you've got the
time difference spot on. As I said in my first reply, precise
details of access depend on the model. On T and L series, it's
easy. Tip the organ on one end and remove the fibre sound
deadening mat and you can easily see inside the generator. You'll
need to remove the internal Leslie on some T models, and if the
organ has been oiled recently, it will run out of the end of the
generator. Rather more difficult on organs where the generator is
suspended on springs, M-series, B-3, C-3, A-100 etc. You have to
unhook the generator from the springs and possibly disconnect some
of the wiring to get enough slack to lift and tilt the generator.
I haven't seen many X-77's, but if I remember, the tone generator
is more like the L series. On 03/02/2023 18:58, Wayne Tarling via
groups.io wrote:
Thanks again Chris ....but
now you have my curiousity.? ?You know what I have just done,
but I have not explained what I had to do access all the
bearings.? What did you have to do to access these bearings
...knowing this is an X-77?? ?We had a C series and then an
A100, which I understand is very similar to the B series when
considering only the tone wheel generator ....but I never had
to dig into the back of any of these models, so I don't know
how they compare with the X-77.? Is the X-77 a different beast
specific to the tone wheel generator assembly?
You're in England are you
not? ...Now 7:00PM ish?
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 10:37:06 AM PST, Chris
Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:
My understanding is that the original Hammond oil is
light enough? to evaporate over a period of years.
This will happen whether or not the organ is used,
probably it would dry out quicker at higher
temperatures, but that's the only environmental factor
that would affect it. It could take weeks, or even
longer for oil to make its way along the wicks if they
have been allowed to completely dry out. I've never
had the time to find out, it always made more sense on
a service call to oil all the bearings directly, and
leave the customer with a fully functioning organ. A
customer would, quite rightly, be a little suspicious
of a technician who just put oil in the funnels and
left, saying, "It'll be fine in a month or so!". On
03/02/2023 15:20, Wayne Tarling via groups.io wrote:
Thanks again Chris.
Once I am satisfied that the three
culprits issue has been solved in some concrete
manner, I will be doing exactly have you recommended
...oiling each and every bearing ...from both sides
before buttoning up.? ?I have already added a
significant qty of oil to the main oil gallery
..twice.? I don't know what "dry" is, so it is hard
to know how much oil is needed.
There was a period of several years
when the organ indeed did not get used.? Perhaps
this is irrelevant when it comes to an "oiling
regimen".(?)
I have also heard the about the
incorrect oils an the effect is has on "wicking". I
have not used anything else but Hammond lube ...so
hoping this is not something I will have to contend
with. However, the application of a lube directly on
bearings should not cause any problems
I am still pursing a "liquid
lubricating product" that is designed to address
worn bearings.? As it is now, I have successfully
eliminated the noise in the bearings, running the
organ for several-hour periods, off for several
hours, and powering back up.? ?So I am confident I
have determined the source of the problem ...I'm yet
to be convinced of a "permanent fix".
If anyone knows of a lubricating
product that they know would/might be ideal for this
application, please feel to jump in.? These organs
aren't getting old ...they ARE old and this
mechanical part is what Hammond is all about
...along with the Leslie mechanicals.? ? I am now in
touch with "Permatex", but I am dealing with someone
who may be knowledgeable about lubrication, but not
so much application.
If I do find a product for "worn
bearings" that would be good for a "repair" of noisy
bearings, I will put a post out with some detail of
what I have found, for others to evaluate and
determine if it is something they could use.
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:26:31 AM
PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...>
wrote:
Where I have come across this in the past,
it's always been an organ that has been
neglected, not oiled in the regular way for
several years. Once the bearings have been
oiled, I usually just put a drop on every
bearing in the generator, I've always found
that normal regular oiling has prevented any
recurrence, in some cases, I have been
returning to the same organ annually for
decades, and not had any further dry bearing
problems. I have seen suggestions that using
a solvent such as lighter fluid will
dissolve waxy residues left in oiling wicks
by unsuitable oils, but never had cause to
try this myself. On
02/02/2023 23:40, Wayne Tarling via
groups.io wrote:
Thanks for this Chris
You pretty well nailed
exactly what I had done.? I did not want
to mention this for fear anything said
might influence anyone to not respond if
they had a different way of tackling this
problem.
The organ is the X-77 with
both the matching Leslie and a 147.
Trying to isolate an area
where the "noise" was coming from, was
only guessing when sitting on the bench.?
When looking at the assembly from the
back, with the top "plate" attached, it
was pretty well impossible to see let
alone try to figure out a way to identify
the culprit bearing(s). The only "easy"
way to access under this plate was to cut
each of the wires on the "inner side" of
the top plate (the side toward the
keyboard).? There was only the one lead on
this side, on each "bank" going to either
a cap or cap/coil assy ....so 24 in all.?
This allowed me to lift the one side of
the plate to expose the entire tonewheel
assembly.
Then using an extension cord
(to control power on/off from the back),
very quick connection to power just to
initiate some "spinning", I could not only
immediately confirm the noise coming from
the RHS (I'm now at the back looking
forward), but immediately straight to the
"area" ....as the spin slowed.? I only
needed/wanted a slow spin and then coast
to a stop, rather than the whole tone
wheel area screaming/squealing and noise
coming from all over the place ...because
the noise can simply transmit down the
culprit shaft(s) as well.
I could not tell "which"
bearing(s) were making the noise.
Because the bearing noise is
likely due to a "dry" condition and also
potentially now an over-size or obround
shaft/bearing clearance condition, my
preference was to use a heavier weight,
more viscous oil rather than the Hammond
oil.? My understanding is the Hammond oil
is designed to used for "wicking".
Additives like waxes would eventually
hinder the wicking? ....but if applying
directly to a bearing, this is not a
concern.
I used the most viscous lube
I have which is a 30W Way Oil ...which is
design to "stick" to/on "ways" found on
machine tools (lathes, mills, etc). I used
a syringe to apply directly on one bearing
at a time ("design of experiments"
principles).? I started on the end bearing
closest to me, and applied a little lube
on both sides (ends) of the bearing and
quickly applied power and immediately
disconnected ..again, just to get the
tonewheel assy turning to make the noise.?
This first bearing changed nothing.? This
is a "lay shaft", so the opposite end then
needed the same treatment. Again, a
quick/short power up, changed nothing.
The "next" reachable shaft in
this "first bank" was on the opposite side
(toward the keys), again, a lay shaft.?
When repeating the procedure, I
immediately identified a change to the
noise from the outside bearing. It was
significantly reduced.? I then repeated on
the bearing on the opposite end of this
lay shaft and the noise all but
disappeared.? I had found the primary
culprit bearings as being the lay shaft at
the opposite end of the drive motor.
However, not ALL the noise
was gone. As it turned out, the next
bearing, furthest away from oiling point,
was on the drive shaft.? An application of
oil on this one bearing and ALL the noise
was gone.
I have since let the organ
run for several hours and turned off to
allow it to cool, and repeated this few
times now.? There has been one instance
where a very faint noise has started,
which prompted me to add some lube to all
three bearings ...and herein lies the
problem of potentially needed to
continually need to add lubrication to
these three bearings.? ?If this is what
needs to be done, then I will design some
kind of system that will put lube directly
on to these three bearings when needed.
At one point I looked at the
entire assy and recognized this is NOT a
"friendly" assy to work with. As you
pointed out, Hammond would have jigs and
fixtures along with a very elaborate assy
instruction.
What I am wondering is if
there is a lubrication product that is
designed to "fill" voids or "over-size"
conditions, that might offer some form of
a more permanent "repair" to worn
bearings. This would be "shaft-to-bearing"
fit.? Something that might be perhaps
"anerobic"?? ? ? Would anyone know if
there is such a product available
specifically for worn bearings?? ?I have
looked and found different products, but I
can't tell if they are for this kind of
"repair" or they are meant to be applied
to the outside (OD) of the bearing only.
I have used a 30W lubrication
with success.? I could easily consider 50W
lube as well ...but my quest is a
permanent fix.
Anyone have any other ideas?
Thanks
Wayne
PS - now that the tone wheel
assembly is fully exposed, I will be
applying oil to every bearing from both
sides. If may not be necessary, but there
should be no harm to doing this ....unless
someone knows otherwise.? I look forward
to any comments with previous
experience/successes.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at
11:10:11 AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...>
wrote:
Although I've come across several
instances of noisy, and even
seized bearings, these have all
responded to lubrication. Often
the best way to get oil where it's
needed without waiting for it to
make its way through the oiling
wicks is to use a syringe to apply
a drop of oil directly to each
bearing. Depending on the model of
organ it may be necessary to
disconnect some of the wiring to
the generator to be able to move
the generator to get access to the
underside. I doubt that there is any
practicable way of replacing
bearings, the amount of work
involved in dismantling, and more
importantly reassembling a
generator would make it difficult
if not impossible to replace
bearings. Indeed, I'm by no means
certain that it's even possible to
reassemble a generator without the
original factory tooling and jigs.
I'd consider any tone wheel
generator that had bearings so
badly worn as to require
replacement as beyond economic
repair On
02/02/2023 18:07, Wayne Tarling
via groups.io wrote:.
Hello Community
I haven't heard
much about "bearing problems"
in any of the discussions. A
few messages about Hammond
lube (which I have lots of),
but nothing about "failed
bearings".
Considering there
are some 144 or more bearings,
has anyone had a problem with
a "failed" bearing?? If so, is
there any easy "fix" per se.
I won't go into a
lot of detail yet,
particularly if there is
indeed an easy fix.
If more
information is needed, I can
certainly provide a lot more
detail of what the problem is
and what I have done ....so
far.
Regards to all.
Wayne
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